Ilov80s
Footballguy
Yeah, the whole NAZI/Holocaust thing wasn't looking good so most of the great filmmakers came to Hollywood pre-WW2.
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FBG Movie Club: We're Getting the Band Back Together: Metallica vs Nina Simone Movie Docs (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Ilov80s
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Eephus
Footballguy
The stories of Hollywood immigrants are fascinating. I recommend Otto Friedrich's City of Nets as a popular history of Los Angeles in the 40s.
I was racking my brain trying to think of directors from the next generation who made one-offs in English. The only one I thought of Truffaut who did Fahrenheit 451. There are guys like Bertolucci and Louis Malle who bounced back and forth but it seems like most great directors of the 60s and 70s worked almost exclusively in their native tongue.
I'm sure I'm missing some obvious ones.
I was racking my brain trying to think of directors from the next generation who made one-offs in English. The only one I thought of Truffaut who did Fahrenheit 451. There are guys like Bertolucci and Louis Malle who bounced back and forth but it seems like most great directors of the 60s and 70s worked almost exclusively in their native tongue.
I'm sure I'm missing some obvious ones.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Eephus
Footballguy
It wasn't just directors. Other immigrant artists in Hollywood included cinematographers, set designers, composers, craftspeople, etc. Some were escaping Fascism but many were just following the money. Either way, it was a boon for the still young industry..
Eephus
Footballguy
One of the most notorious American one offs is Michelangelo Antonioni's Zabriskie Point. There's a watchable print on YouTube if you dare. I've seen Blowup and a couple of his Italian films but Antonioni is a taste I never acquired.
Wim Wenders is a European who's made some excellent films in this country.
Wim Wenders is a European who's made some excellent films in this country.
Don Quixote
Footballguy
That was my reaction when I saw it too. Ang Lee, Cuarón, Inarritu come to mind. Not sure what is uncommon here.
Eephus
Footballguy
Eephus
Footballguy
I think the decline of national film industries in smaller countries also plays into globalization. Bergman, Fellini, Kurosawa, Truffaut etc. could stay at home and make movies that could break even without the need for huge foreign sales. That's no longer the case, at least for art house directors.
There are still huge national industries in places like China, India and Nigeria but they seldom cross into Western consciousness. Prime Video has tons of these. I've watchlisted some that sounded interesting but I can never find the right time. I did watch the 2017 Chinese flying action movie Sky Hunter when the Fan Bing Bing house arrest was happening. It was worse than Snowpiercer.
There are still huge national industries in places like China, India and Nigeria but they seldom cross into Western consciousness. Prime Video has tons of these. I've watchlisted some that sounded interesting but I can never find the right time. I did watch the 2017 Chinese flying action movie Sky Hunter when the Fan Bing Bing house arrest was happening. It was worse than Snowpiercer.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
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Ilov80s
Footballguy
Yep, even before Europe got ugly people like Hitchcock and Curtiz came to Hollywood.
Always was. Most of the all time great American movies were made by non-Americans. Casablanca, Psycho, Sunset Boulevard, It's a Wonderful Life, Ben-Hur, Chinatown, Adventures of Robin Hood, etc.
I have tried with Antonioni but just can't get into his movies either. I am kind of interested in Zabriskie Point since it was part of the Charles Manson season of "You Must Remember This". It sounds awful but the story around it is fascinating.
Charlie Steiner
Footballguy
Just got through Snowpiercer. I found it brilliantly derivative.
Eephus
Footballguy
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
So did we pick a less popular movie than Hateful Eight was??
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
Very similar ones - hacky premise, overwrought presentation, both movies i would have quit on were i not watching for cause. I resented what i knew Snowpiercer would be foisting upon me and for what little result almost from the start. I was used to QT watching H8 and endured its de-evolution more wistfully. So, yes
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Honestly, I think this month and maybe next will be a lesson in the limitations of trying to stick to NF and prime for this endeavor.
I said for this month we were missing out on Bongs better movies with these options. For next month I had a list of about 30 movies, and maybe 8 were available through these two platforms.
I am as hesitant (and poor) as anyone around here to have to pay for a bunch of options, but I will through out the question again if people are willing to pay for a rental or for an add on like mubi or Sundance to prime to open this up more. All those options would be less than $10/month.
I said for this month we were missing out on Bongs better movies with these options. For next month I had a list of about 30 movies, and maybe 8 were available through these two platforms.
I am as hesitant (and poor) as anyone around here to have to pay for a bunch of options, but I will through out the question again if people are willing to pay for a rental or for an add on like mubi or Sundance to prime to open this up more. All those options would be less than $10/month.
Charlie Steiner
Footballguy
This is where I am. I don't dislike it, but I doubt I'll leave it on if it ever makes it to TV.
prosopis
Arizona Chupacabra
I am with you. I to saw it a while back and remember liking it. I am hoping to have time for another viewing this weekend. I was not a fan of Okja. While I did like Parasite I do not feel it was picture of the year. I would have gone with Tarantino's flick.
Osaurus
Footballguy
I keep thinking about that beautiful 145 yo guitar that Kurt Russell destroyed. It deserved better.
Don Quixote
Footballguy
For me, the rental issue is not as much cost as time and flexibility on how to watch. Most of the online rental places seem to require watching within 24 or 48 hours of starting the movie. That is another aspect of the Blockbuster that I miss. Maybe there are sites with longer windows, but that is a bit limiting for me personally. I really enjoyed Okja, but I think I started it on Saturday and just finished it up last night.Honestly, I think this month and maybe next will be a lesson in the limitations of trying to stick to NF and prime for this endeavor.
I said for this month we were missing out on Bongs better movies with these options. For next month I had a list of about 30 movies, and maybe 8 were available through these two platforms.
I am as hesitant (and poor) as anyone around here to have to pay for a bunch of options, but I will through out the question again if people are willing to pay for a rental or for an add on like mubi or Sundance to prime to open this up more. All those options would be less than $10/month.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
I get that - I ran into that problem renting Parasite as I barely got it watched in the 24 hour window since one of the kids was sick and I got pulled away from the movie.
Something like Mubi is a $7/month add on to Prime and what they do is have 30 movies (mostly indie/foreign/Criterion-type movies) available to watch at all times. They add a different one per day, and take one off so it's always that number of movies, but you basically have 30 days to watch it. They really do an interesting mix of movies on there. Between that and Kanopy if people have that in their area, it's a really cheap way to get ahold of a lot of hard to find movies. Might be hard to time Mubi with this club though.
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wikkidpissah
Footballguy
not subscribing to anything else. my library doesnt carry Kanopy. dont mind spending $3-5 to watch a Club movie
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Don Quixote
Footballguy
Another thing that you will have to keep in mind for March is March Madness. Participation might be great, but, if not, there could be some other issues regardless of what you choose this month.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Charlie Steiner
Footballguy
Starting Okja now. Wish me luck.
Charlie Steiner
Footballguy
One interesting thing about watching without subtitles: apparently the word 'terrorist' does not exist in Korean. Must be nice.
Gawain
Footballguy
It's the story of Charlie Bucket breaking under the strain of knowing the world is going to end, a situation that his chocolate factories helped cause through over polluting the environment.
dickey moe
Fingerpicker
Watched Okja last night. I guess it was cute. I still love eating meat and don't think of livestock as cuddly pet animals. Am I supposed to feel guilty after watching this movie? It's like Free Willy with a-holes.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
I am a susceptible target as I do already feel some guilt about meat consumption and have been reducing for awhile now so it’s no surprise I found the message effective. I also enjoyed just how weird it was- Tilda and Jake fully embraced the crazy.
Don Quixote
Footballguy
Tilda and Jake were really good in it. Probably the weirdest I've seen Jake in a movie since Bubble Boy.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
He’s had a really good career and seems like a genuinely cool guy. He’s always screwing around on those press junket interviews and my god was he hilariously random on SNL Saturday.
Charlie Steiner
Footballguy
I guess I'll jump in...
After watching both films, the impression I have of Bong is that he is an actor's director, meaning that he gets them to do what they're good at, stays out of the way and gets good performances out of them; the flip side of that is that the only one who showed us anything we hadn't seen from them before was Swinton in both films, and Gylenhall in Okja (though I can't say the same about the Korean actors as I'd never seen them before). My focus is always on the casting and acting first, and to my previous comment, kudos to the producers for getting exactly the right actors, though again only a couple of them actually showed us anything new from themselves. I'm not sure how to describe it, but while in most movies the actors 'do their thing', in both films they seemed to that with an extra 'oomph' for lack of a better word. I think I'm trying to say that I could almost feel the actors enjoying what they were doing, if that makes sense.
Onto specifics, I started with Snowpiercer since it was the earlier of the two. I previously said it was brilliantly derivative, but I have to walk that back just a little since I learned it was based on a graphic novel, which makes it a different animal and gets some leeway in that respect. Nonetheless, it had a lot of elements that were all too familiar when dabbling with dystopian themes. As a side note, we have always had and will always have to deal with 'dystopia' in one form or another in our stories, but I also think we need to give it a rest for a little while. Putting the overly familiar elements aside, I think Bong did a lot of things right with this film; the actors drew me in to the setting and got me invested in their stories, the story moved along at an appropriate pace, there was a lot of action but it didn't get hard to follow like other action movies that usually have 30 different cuts per second, and for a setting that was supposed to be bleak and pretty colorless, the exterior scenes had a 'warm' sort of wintry feel to them. Throughout the film, I was listing in my mind the different movie/story elements that showed up in Snowpiercer--Heart of Darkness, the Great Escape, Willie Wonka, the Truman Show among others--but in the end the 'joy' the actors seemed to have in making the film made me just shrug off the comparisons and take away from it the things that were done right.
As for Okja (another side note, I like how they get 3 syllables out of the word in Korean as opposed to a reflexive 2 syllables in English), again there were easy comparisons to other movies/stories we already know, but like Bong did with Snowpiercer, he got me to enjoy this story based on its own presentation, which was about as flawless as any movie could be; good acting, enjoyable visuals, great balance all around. I couldn't get the subtitles or dubbing to work on the version I watched, but due to its familiarity I was more or less able to keep up with the gist, though I missed the story about the golden pig statue. I enjoyed the 'caper' subplot, and as much as I enjoyed Gylenhall's character, I was sad about it because it made me realize I wouldn't mind seeing a biography movie about Rip Taylor. I was afraid it was going to get preachy about the meat industry, but I didn't get that; instead, Bong just let the visuals do the talking in the background and stuck with the characters and their focus in the story, which was on Okja specifically. Like Snowpiercer, the cast, while most were just given standard-type roles we've seen, brought a tangible yet invisible extra something to playing their part which was captured in their performances.
In the end, I'm satisfied with both choices and appreciate the introduction to Bong. I look forward to viewing his other work.
After watching both films, the impression I have of Bong is that he is an actor's director, meaning that he gets them to do what they're good at, stays out of the way and gets good performances out of them; the flip side of that is that the only one who showed us anything we hadn't seen from them before was Swinton in both films, and Gylenhall in Okja (though I can't say the same about the Korean actors as I'd never seen them before). My focus is always on the casting and acting first, and to my previous comment, kudos to the producers for getting exactly the right actors, though again only a couple of them actually showed us anything new from themselves. I'm not sure how to describe it, but while in most movies the actors 'do their thing', in both films they seemed to that with an extra 'oomph' for lack of a better word. I think I'm trying to say that I could almost feel the actors enjoying what they were doing, if that makes sense.
Onto specifics, I started with Snowpiercer since it was the earlier of the two. I previously said it was brilliantly derivative, but I have to walk that back just a little since I learned it was based on a graphic novel, which makes it a different animal and gets some leeway in that respect. Nonetheless, it had a lot of elements that were all too familiar when dabbling with dystopian themes. As a side note, we have always had and will always have to deal with 'dystopia' in one form or another in our stories, but I also think we need to give it a rest for a little while. Putting the overly familiar elements aside, I think Bong did a lot of things right with this film; the actors drew me in to the setting and got me invested in their stories, the story moved along at an appropriate pace, there was a lot of action but it didn't get hard to follow like other action movies that usually have 30 different cuts per second, and for a setting that was supposed to be bleak and pretty colorless, the exterior scenes had a 'warm' sort of wintry feel to them. Throughout the film, I was listing in my mind the different movie/story elements that showed up in Snowpiercer--Heart of Darkness, the Great Escape, Willie Wonka, the Truman Show among others--but in the end the 'joy' the actors seemed to have in making the film made me just shrug off the comparisons and take away from it the things that were done right.
As for Okja (another side note, I like how they get 3 syllables out of the word in Korean as opposed to a reflexive 2 syllables in English), again there were easy comparisons to other movies/stories we already know, but like Bong did with Snowpiercer, he got me to enjoy this story based on its own presentation, which was about as flawless as any movie could be; good acting, enjoyable visuals, great balance all around. I couldn't get the subtitles or dubbing to work on the version I watched, but due to its familiarity I was more or less able to keep up with the gist, though I missed the story about the golden pig statue. I enjoyed the 'caper' subplot, and as much as I enjoyed Gylenhall's character, I was sad about it because it made me realize I wouldn't mind seeing a biography movie about Rip Taylor. I was afraid it was going to get preachy about the meat industry, but I didn't get that; instead, Bong just let the visuals do the talking in the background and stuck with the characters and their focus in the story, which was on Okja specifically. Like Snowpiercer, the cast, while most were just given standard-type roles we've seen, brought a tangible yet invisible extra something to playing their part which was captured in their performances.
In the end, I'm satisfied with both choices and appreciate the introduction to Bong. I look forward to viewing his other work.
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
OK, here we go. I hope this doesnt conflict too much with Charlie's too much cuz i didnt want to read that before i started mine.
Okja
Here's the thing - there's humor everywhere. In the produce section, under the lube rack, at a funeral, on a restaurant line there can be funny moments, intentional or not. More germaine to the didactics of this film, there can be humor at a kibbutz, a bundt, an antifa protest, a Trump rally, a communist sex igloo or a or an armed bigamy compound.
Don't make it funny, tho. YOU have to make it funny, if you turn those moments into art.There's a skill to that, especially if you're going to do it in English when that's not your first language or cultural orientation and even more especially in the only language in which The Funny is more science than art. In America, you dont make corporate thugs extravagantly eccentric, you make them brutally efficient for greater bounce. The CEO doesnt have a squeaky echo-chamber assistant, like a Japanese game show, you have an ambitious nerd taking her assistance too seriously. Your corporate face needs no slapstick perversions, he's already at his comic peak by creation of a public image to mask his private foibles. And, lastly, hysteria is only hysterical in France, cartoons, the past and......South Korea, apparently. Yeesh. A story which could be charming and uplifting, interestingly staged & shot, ruined by comic tropes which havent been funny since Fred MacMurray & Flubber. In short, if Tilda Swinton is gonna be your Peter Sellers, just don't.
Havent seen Parasite, Is it all in Korean? If so, Bong gets a break, because the language difference puts the cultural interpretation on me. But you invade my culture, artistically, you better do all aspects at least as well as a 7th grader. nufced
Okja
Here's the thing - there's humor everywhere. In the produce section, under the lube rack, at a funeral, on a restaurant line there can be funny moments, intentional or not. More germaine to the didactics of this film, there can be humor at a kibbutz, a bundt, an antifa protest, a Trump rally, a communist sex igloo or a or an armed bigamy compound.
Don't make it funny, tho. YOU have to make it funny, if you turn those moments into art.There's a skill to that, especially if you're going to do it in English when that's not your first language or cultural orientation and even more especially in the only language in which The Funny is more science than art. In America, you dont make corporate thugs extravagantly eccentric, you make them brutally efficient for greater bounce. The CEO doesnt have a squeaky echo-chamber assistant, like a Japanese game show, you have an ambitious nerd taking her assistance too seriously. Your corporate face needs no slapstick perversions, he's already at his comic peak by creation of a public image to mask his private foibles. And, lastly, hysteria is only hysterical in France, cartoons, the past and......South Korea, apparently. Yeesh. A story which could be charming and uplifting, interestingly staged & shot, ruined by comic tropes which havent been funny since Fred MacMurray & Flubber. In short, if Tilda Swinton is gonna be your Peter Sellers, just don't.
Havent seen Parasite, Is it all in Korean? If so, Bong gets a break, because the language difference puts the cultural interpretation on me. But you invade my culture, artistically, you better do all aspects at least as well as a 7th grader. nufced
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Osaurus
Footballguy
Aside from the Tragedy of the Commons element from Okja, I found the betrayal of the farmer’s daughter fascinating. She was betrayed by the “good guys” and the “bad guys” in different ways, but mostly for the same reasons. I think Bong was clearly trying to make a statement about everyone living in gray and not black and white. Ultimately the girl made her own deal to save her buddy and realized she was then a grownup of sorts making tough decisions we all make for the things we care about. She somewhat had the power all along to determine her buddy’s fate. Admittedly, the slaughterhouse scene was pretty tough for Mrs. O to watch. For me, it represented hope of sorts for the future of this fancy pig species. Ftr, I wanted to throat punch Jake Gyllenhaal’s character from his very first scene.
I’m not going to comment on Snowpiercer bc I thought it was generally terrible and obvious.
I’m not going to comment on Snowpiercer bc I thought it was generally terrible and obvious.
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Charlie Steiner
Footballguy
I think our perspectives do conflict, and I'm good with that. All of your points are valid, to be sure, and if we look at it strictly through our own sensibilities, it's absolutely fair to roast this movie. What I have underlined and italicized in your post is my jumping off point on where our perspectives differ, so I'm actually glad you wrote what you did, because it gets at something I was struggling to put my finger on. We 'invaded' their culture first, and this movie and Snowpiercer remind me of how much "American" culture has impressed itself upon South Korea; for better or worse, our almost 70-year presence there has cast a long shadow and not only gave birth to a lot of ******* children, but our culture has also bastardized theirs as well, probably even moreso than we've done to Japan. Therefore, I won't take Bong to task over the places where his attempts at our themes pale in comparison to what we know and instead see it as whatever Korean identity they have left expressing itself through whatever wreckage they have to work with. If anything, we're seeing a 'Koreanization' of our tropes, so I'm willing to give him the leeway because I know his frame of reference and target audience are wider than just me/America.
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wikkidpissah
Footballguy
totally get where you're coming from, CS, but The Funny has no benefit of the doubt. been writing jokes since i was 8, selling em since i was 14, still see a coupla mine on brickwall youtube clips. The Funny makes Fight Club look like a prayer breakfast. dont nobody mess -
Man of Constant Sorrow
Footballguy
My family commitments have gone into over time this past month, so I never got around to Okja.
However, I didn't hate Snowpiercer as much as many here. I can't say that I thought it was "good", but I don't regret watching it. It was a good mental diversion, and I appreciate that.
I plan to watch Parasite sometime soon, hopefully.
However, I didn't hate Snowpiercer as much as many here. I can't say that I thought it was "good", but I don't regret watching it. It was a good mental diversion, and I appreciate that.
I plan to watch Parasite sometime soon, hopefully.
prosopis
Arizona Chupacabra
I am rating Snowpiercer from a previous viewing. I did not watch it again this month. I remember liking it but it was not something I would watch again.
I did watch Okja and did not really care for it. The free willy comparison above is pretty accurate and I did not like that either.
I did watch Okja and did not really care for it. The free willy comparison above is pretty accurate and I did not like that either.
Eephus
Footballguy
The plotting of Okja was similar to Parasite in that both took an abrupt turn in theme and tone near the middle. But while both of Parasite's half stories connected with me, I thought the setup of Okja was let down by its resolution. I thought the movie lost its way once it left Korea. It changed from mostly visual to heavily verbal so the pacing, which was pretty slow in the countryside, didn't pick up as the film reached its climax.
It's an odd little film. some credit should go to Netflix because I don't think it would have been commercial, at least in this country. Children who might love the live-action "My Neighbor Totoro" would be mortified by the violence and darkness that faces Okja. I enjoyed the film's goofiness, even the abattoir scenes were shot with high style. By that point, I had stopped trying to figure out how Mirando got the pig production industry online so quickly and was just along for the rest of the ride.
I enjoyed watching it but It tried to pile too much on top of a very simple story.. As a comedy, Okja was much more "funny/strange" than "funny/ha-ha". As a morality play, I think the weirdness of the villains detracted from its effectiveness. As an action movie, there were long stretches where nothing much was happening.
It's an odd little film. some credit should go to Netflix because I don't think it would have been commercial, at least in this country. Children who might love the live-action "My Neighbor Totoro" would be mortified by the violence and darkness that faces Okja. I enjoyed the film's goofiness, even the abattoir scenes were shot with high style. By that point, I had stopped trying to figure out how Mirando got the pig production industry online so quickly and was just along for the rest of the ride.
I enjoyed watching it but It tried to pile too much on top of a very simple story.. As a comedy, Okja was much more "funny/strange" than "funny/ha-ha". As a morality play, I think the weirdness of the villains detracted from its effectiveness. As an action movie, there were long stretches where nothing much was happening.
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
Ill take the same angle to answer i did reviewing Okja - depends how it's done.
there is no subject i feel i cant joke about. it's just that the greater the recency & immediacy & polarity of the subject, the absolutely more tight & unquestionably right the joke/bit has to be.
the purpose of movies, more than anything, is to move people. leverage is how one moves static objects. the more dramatically an artist wants to move someone (esp those who would resist) the more commanding his art must be and the more compelling his objective must be. if one does not create a great enough case for the audience to come along where you're going or drags instead of lifts the viewer to where one wants them to go, they've violated the contract they have with the people in the dark.
as the saying goes, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs. no matter how right you are, if you just tell people you're right and they're wrong or assume they should feel a certain way because you do, you've failed before you've started
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