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Bucky86

Are the ICE Prisons the Same as Concentration Camps?

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Recently AOC made controversial comments that comparing ICE prisons to "Concentration Camps."

What do you think?

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The Geo Group website has this to say:

The GEO Group (GEO) operates special-purpose, state-of-the-art residential centers on behalf of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE).

All ICE Processing Centers operated by GEO have a long-standing record providing high-quality, culturally responsive services in safe, secure, and humane environments that meet the needs of the individuals in the care and custody of federal immigration authorities.

These residential centers provide extensive recreational and educational amenities such as state-of-the-art, artificial soccer fields, flat screen TVs in all housing areas, and modern classrooms with the most up-to-date technology including cutting-edge smartboards for interactive educational programming.

All ICE Processing Centers operated by GEO abide by strict national performance-based standards, which were promulgated by the federal government in 2011 and updated in 2016.

Sounds quite lovely.  Nicer than many resorts I have stayed at.  I wonder if their statement is accurate or self-serving?

 

 

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:yes:

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez‏Verified account @AOC 17hr

The US ran concentration camps before, when we rounded up Japanese people during WWII. It is such a shameful history that we largely ignore it. These camps occur throughout

And for the shrieking Republicans who don’t know the difference: concentration camps are not the same as death camps.

Concentration camps are considered by experts as “the mass detention of civilians without trial.”

And that’s exactly what this administration is doing.

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I am going to go with no.

 

I would have accepted Internment Camps - but I think concentration camps is a half-step too far.

 

(You can make a tenuous case that by rejecting asylum claims, we are deporting people to their deaths - but not in a large scale execution that was indicative of WWII concentration camps.)

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To say yes is to ignore language. Plain and simple. Idk the actual definitions of each, BUT it's just a fact that in modern times "concentration camps" have a specific connotation to Nazi Germany. No different than how a Swastika, which was originally a symbol of spiritualism and luck, is now soured forever. And no, I'm not saying concentration camps were ever a good thing.

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Just now, ShamrockPride said:

To say yes is to ignore language. Plain and simple. Idk the actual definitions of each, BUT it's just a fact that in modern times "concentration camps" have a specific connotation to Nazi Germany. No different than how a Swastika, which was originally a symbol of spiritualism and luck, is now soured forever. And no, I'm not saying concentration camps were ever a good thing.

From Merriam Webster

Quote

a place where large numbers of people (such as prisoners of war, political prisoners, refugees, or the members of an ethnic or religious minority) are detained or confined under armed guard —used especially in reference to camps created by the Nazis in World War II for the internment and persecution of Jews and other prisoners

 

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Maybe she should have used the word 'gulag'. You know, Russian, Trump......

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More like summer camps really. 

 

"The Trump administration argued in front of a Ninth Circuit panel Tuesday that the government is not required to give soap or toothbrushes to children apprehended at the U.S.-Mexico border and can have them sleep on concrete floors in frigid, overcrowded cells,"

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(Rep. Nadler)))‏Verified account @RepJerryNadler Jun 18

 

One of the lessons from the Holocaust is ‘Never Again’ - not only to mass murder, but also to the dehumanization of people, violations of basic rights, and assaults on our common morality. We fail to learn that lesson when we don’t callout such inhumanity right in front of us.

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4 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

(Rep. Nadler)))‏Verified account @RepJerryNadler Jun 18

 

One of the lessons from the Holocaust is ‘Never Again’ - not only to mass murder, but also to the dehumanization of people, violations of basic rights, and assaults on our common morality. We fail to learn that lesson when we don’t callout such inhumanity right in front of us.

Can't. Get. Out. Of. Own. Way.

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Elad Nehorai‏Verified account @PopChassid

Today I asked a Holocaust survivor about those who say not to politicize it by comparing it to now. She replied: "What's wrong with being political? When are you gonna speak up for something? What are you gonna wait for? How long? You can always find an excuse not to speak up."

 

I then asked her what her main message to the Jewish world of today would be. Her reply: "Yesterday it was us. Today it is others. Open your heart to the others. We need to."

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It is closer to Concentration Camps than summer camps..  And not something that I ever thought we would see in the United States..

If the border is under attack then how can you say this is not a Concentration Camp.   If you want to use fear language for one side, its only fair that the other side is also able to use that same fear language.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, greenroom said:

If the border is under attack then how can you say this is not a Concentration Camp.   If you want to use fear language for one side, its only fair that the other side is also able to use that same fear language.

That's one approach.  Another approach is for both sides to avoid crazy and inflammatory hyperbole.  

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Posted (edited)
On 6/19/2019 at 10:24 AM, squistion said:

:yes:

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez‏Verified account @AOC 17hr

The US ran concentration camps before, when we rounded up Japanese people during WWII. It is such a shameful history that we largely ignore it. These camps occur throughout

And for the shrieking Republicans who don’t know the difference: concentration camps are not the same as death camps.

Concentration camps are considered by experts as “the mass detention of civilians without trial.”

And that’s exactly what this administration is doing.

Those were internment camps, not concentration camps.  There was no forced labor, genocide, mass extermination, etc.

We don’t have the resources to process the increased immigration load in a timely manner.  I don’t have an issue with releasing those that have no criminal past to a custodial family.  Ex-cons can wait or be deported.

Edited by jonessed

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Just now, IvanKaramazov said:

That's one approach.  Another approach is for both sides to avoid crazy and inflammatory hyperbole.  

That sounds like a great approach for some sort of magical sunshine, lollipops and rainbows type universe.

What do we do when one of the sides is led by Donald Trump and Mitch McConnell and its mouthpieces are Sarah Sanders, Sean Hannity and Laura Ingraham? Stand down and let them tell everyone that these camps are actually five star luxury resorts where migrants are sipping mimosas and getting deep tissue massages from ICE agents?

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Holocaust Survivors Recall Exact Day Holocaust Started Right Out Of The Blue
11/27/18

NEW YORK—Remembering the mixture of fear and surprise they felt during the dark time in their past, a group of Holocaust survivors recalled the exact day that the Holocaust started right out of the blue, sources confirmed Tuesday. “You’d think there would’ve been some warning signs, but nope—everything was going along just fine until the Holocaust just up and started out of nowhere,” said Esther Herzfeld, 94, who added how scared and baffled she was when she and her family had to go abruptly into hiding after hearing that Jewish people were being rounded up by something called the Gestapo. “We were just minding our own business and everything was totally normal, with no curfew or persecutions or any limits on our rights, and all of a sudden, poof—the Holocaust was in full swing. No one could figure out how the Nazis randomly decided to go after Jews and the disabled and Roma and gay people, but by nightfall people were being grabbed off the street and sent to concentration camps, which had all been built over the previous 24 hours. It was crazy—no one had any clue anything bad was going to happen.” The nation’s Holocaust survivors also reportedly recalled that the suddenness of the Holocaust starting was probably why it took so long for anyone to come help them.

 

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On 6/19/2019 at 12:24 PM, squistion said:

Concentration camps are considered by experts as “the mass detention of civilians without trial.”

Didnt just one person say this? 

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42 minutes ago, jonessed said:

Those were internment camps, not concentration camps.  There was no forced labor, genocide, mass extermination, etc.

We don’t have the resources to process the increased immigration load in a timely manner.  I don’t have an issue with releasing those that have no criminal past to a custodial family.  Ex-cons can wait or be deported.

Has anyone asked this question yet?  Why don't we have the resources?  What are we waiting for?

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12 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

Has anyone asked this question yet?  Why don't we have the resources?  What are we waiting for?

A budget agreement I think.  Some money has already been allocated.  It’s not like you can just go out and instantly hire a few hundred extra judges or throw up mass housing facilities.

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Just now, jonessed said:

A budget agreement I think.  Some money has already been allocated.  It’s not like you can just go out and instantly hire a few hundred extra judges or throw up mass housing facilities.

I know it doesn't happen instantly but how long has this been going on and how much longer is it going to take?

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17 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

Has anyone asked this question yet?  Why don't we have the resources?  What are we waiting for?

We’re waiting to elect a democratic president.  Then the gates will be wide open!

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Just now, jonessed said:

Retrofitting and repurposing parts of existing or old bases seems like a good idea.  It’s land and infrastructure readily available.

Excellent use of resources and saving money.

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Just now, Gopher State said:

We’re waiting to elect a democratic president.  Then the gates will be wide open!

Please stop.  I'm trying to have an honest conversation here.

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15 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

Has anyone asked this question yet?  Why don't we have the resources?  What are we waiting for?

Or the flip side- have our policies contributed to the increased immigration load? 

Because they have, of course. So we should change those policies. We should stop threatening aid cuts to central America, which just makes the situation more dire. And we should stop threatening to tighten immigration policies even further and build walls and whatnot, because everyone knows that if people really really want something and they fear that opportunity will be taken away from them soon theyy become increasingly desperate to act, even if that fear isn't justified.  Exhibit A

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5 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

I know it doesn't happen instantly but how long has this been going on and how much longer is it going to take?

The surge of immigrants is fairly recent.  Up until like six months ago most Democrats thought it was a bogus Trump admin. claim.

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1 minute ago, jonessed said:

The surge of immigrants is fairly recent.  Up until like six months ago most Democrats thought it was a bogus Trump admin. claim.

Maybe there is a larger surge now but I thought we've had a border crisis going on for a long time already.

If there is a surge right now, why?  What is causing this sudden surge while Trump is President?

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1 minute ago, Hawkeye21 said:

Maybe there is a larger surge now but I thought we've had a border crisis going on for a long time already.

If there is a surge right now, why?  What is causing this sudden surge while Trump is President?

No.  The current surge is much bigger than anything that occurred during the Obama administration.

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Just now, Hawkeye21 said:

Maybe there is a larger surge now but I thought we've had a border crisis going on for a long time already.

If there is a surge right now, why?  What is causing this sudden surge while Trump is President?

Probably a little bit of fear that it wont be an option in the future combined with there being a push by democrats to be shown as supportive of undocumented immigrants. 

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Just now, jonessed said:

No.  The current surge is much bigger than anything that occurred during the Obama administration.

So what's causing that bigger surge now?

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1 hour ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

Holocaust Survivors Recall Exact Day Holocaust Started Right Out Of The Blue
11/27/18

NEW YORK—Remembering the mixture of fear and surprise they felt during the dark time in their past, a group of Holocaust survivors recalled the exact day that the Holocaust started right out of the blue, sources confirmed Tuesday. “You’d think there would’ve been some warning signs, but nope—everything was going along just fine until the Holocaust just up and started out of nowhere,” said Esther Herzfeld, 94, who added how scared and baffled she was when she and her family had to go abruptly into hiding after hearing that Jewish people were being rounded up by something called the Gestapo. “We were just minding our own business and everything was totally normal, with no curfew or persecutions or any limits on our rights, and all of a sudden, poof—the Holocaust was in full swing. No one could figure out how the Nazis randomly decided to go after Jews and the disabled and Roma and gay people, but by nightfall people were being grabbed off the street and sent to concentration camps, which had all been built over the previous 24 hours. It was crazy—no one had any clue anything bad was going to happen.” The nation’s Holocaust survivors also reportedly recalled that the suddenness of the Holocaust starting was probably why it took so long for anyone to come help them.

 

This is perfect.  Right up there with "'No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens" as the Onion's best political work.

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Just now, Hawkeye21 said:

So what's causing that bigger surge now?

Worsening conditions in Central and South America.

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Are they exactly the same as the Nazi concentration camps?  Of course not.

Are they the closest thing we have to Nazi concentration camps? Yes.

 

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12 minutes ago, jonessed said:

The surge of immigrants is fairly recent.  Up until like six months ago most Democrats thought it was a bogus Trump admin. claim.

And begs another question,  why the surge of immigrants unde Trump?

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

So what's causing that bigger surge now?

Another odd thing that is on the rise is people from India and africa being apprehended at the southern border has seen a large spike as well.  In 2008, 77 people from India were apprehended. In 2018 that number was 8997. 

A fox news report last week stated 500 people of african descent were apprehended at the southern border in just the prior two weeks alone. 

ETA: was able to find plenty of reports backing up the fox news claim so i think it is legit. 

Edited by parasaurolophus

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Having just returned from a European trip and a visit to Dachau, I think it's really important to understand what the early Nazi concentration camps were like. Before the passage of the Nuremberg laws, concentration camps were built to house political opponents of the regime who were imprisoned without due process. The acceleration of atrocities in Dachau stemmed from a worsening degradation of the prisoners by the SS, who used dehumanizing language to keep the prisoners in a perpetual state of compliance. It doesn't take much for those early seeds to grow into something truly monstrous.

Keeping human beings in cages, denying them basic human necessities such as medical care and treatment, depriving them of due process and most importantly militaristic dehumanization -- All of these things added together demonstrate a striking similarity to concentration camps in various times throughout history.

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1 minute ago, John Blutarsky said:

Yes, everyone knows that.  But there are three things that conservatives seem to be missing when they point this out:

1.  Progressives and immigration activists hated Obama on immigration. Other than DACA they criticized his work on the issue constantly. So there's no hypocrisy from the left here.

2.  The thing about crowded, shoddy, understaffed facilities is that they become way more crowded, shoddy and understaffed if you fill them with  a lot more people, which the Trump administration is obviously doing.

3.  The child separation policy and the kids dying are new Trump-era developments. Tearing innocent children out of their parents' arms and/or leaving them to die out of neglect are both absolutely horrifying and inexcusable.

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3 minutes ago, TobiasFunke said:

Yes, everyone knows that.  But there are three things that conservatives seem to be missing when they point this out:

1.  Progressives and immigration activists hated Obama on immigration. Other than DACA they criticized his work on the issue constantly. So there's no hypocrisy from the left here.

2.  The thing about crowded, shoddy, understaffed facilities is that they become way more crowded, shoddy and understaffed if you fill them with  a lot more people, which the Trump administration is obviously doing.

3.  The child separation policy and the kids dying are new Trump-era developments. Tearing innocent children out of their parents' arms and/or leaving them to die out of neglect are both absolutely horrifying and inexcusable.

Children were taken under Obama as well. I also posted a link that unfortunately the deaths at these facilities are about the same under Trump and Obama. It's a terrible situation but now it's ok to call them concentration camps but we never heard anything like that when Obama was President.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/09/politics/fact-check-trump-claim-obama-separated-families/index.html

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4 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Somehow we were able to reach a national consensus that Japanese internment camps were bad, while referring to them as "internment camps."  It's as if we've gotten collectively dumber as a country.

wellactually ...

People called them concentration camps. And other people got upset about that. Here's an article from July 1979 about people having the same damn fight over a memorial to the camps.

 

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Just now, John Blutarsky said:

Children were taken under Obama as well. I also posted a link that unfortunately the deaths at these facilities are about the same under Trump and Obama. It's a terrible situation but now it's ok to call them concentration camps but we never heard anything like that when Obama was President.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/09/politics/fact-check-trump-claim-obama-separated-families/index.html

There are a lot more unaccompanied children now and none of these facilities were designed for that.  You can’t just give them a court date and release them.

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Just now, jonessed said:

There are a lot more unaccompanied children now and none of these facilities were designed for that.  You can’t just give them a court date and release them.

Agreed, it is a crisis that needs addressed and one of those is trying to slow down the flow of illegals coming into the country.

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3 minutes ago, TobiasFunke said:

wellactually ...

People called them concentration camps. And other people got upset about that. Here's an article from July 1979 about people having the same damn fight over a memorial to the camps.

 

And you can tell who won that argument by the fact that nobody ever refers to these as concentration camps except when they're trying to score stupid partisan talking points.  Like now.

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1 minute ago, John Blutarsky said:

Children were taken under Obama as well. I also posted a link that unfortunately the deaths at these facilities are about the same under Trump and Obama. It's a terrible situation but now it's ok to call them concentration camps but we never heard anything like that when Obama was President.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/09/politics/fact-check-trump-claim-obama-separated-families/index.html

Children were not separated from their families as a deterrent under Obama. Obama didn't threaten to build walls and cut funding and turn away migrants and take away DACA protections, triggering a massive rush to enter the country before his draconian policies could be put in place that worsening the conditions exponentially.  And no kids died at the facilities during Obama administration.

And like I said before, even those far less severe and awful policies drew a huge amount of opposition from progressives and immigration activists.

So the real question isn't why the left tolerated cruel and inhumane immigration policies under Obama but not Trump. The real question is why the right had tolerated both.

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6 minutes ago, John Blutarsky said:

Children were taken under Obama as well. I also posted a link that unfortunately the deaths at these facilities are about the same under Trump and Obama. It's a terrible situation but now it's ok to call them concentration camps but we never heard anything like that when Obama was President.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/09/politics/fact-check-trump-claim-obama-separated-families/index.html

This is from the article you're using to support this claim:

Facts First: As discussed in a previous fact check, this is false and requires context. Under Obama, children were separated from parents only when authorities had concerns for their well-being or could not confirm that the adult was in fact their legal guardian, but not as a blanket policy.

 

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Just now, -fish- said:

This is from the article you're using to support this claim:

Facts First: As discussed in a previous fact check, this is false and requires context. Under Obama, children were separated from parents only when authorities had concerns for their well-being or could not confirm that the adult was in fact their legal guardian, but not as a blanket policy.

 

It’s not a blanket policy now either.

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