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Bucky86

Are the ICE Prisons the Same as Concentration Camps?

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4 hours ago, Hawkeye21 said:

Maybe there is a larger surge now but I thought we've had a border crisis going on for a long time already.

If there is a surge right now, why?  What is causing this sudden surge while Trump is President?

Mostly the situation in Central America and the possibility that the border will be completely closed to asylum seekers.

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3 hours ago, Dinsy Ejotuz said:

The word has a definition and that definition was in use prior to this.  You can look it up.

It's not partisan to call something by its actual name.

Whether you think it started in Cuba or South Africa doesn’t really matter.  Both designed their concentration camps to systematically kill a targeted population.

Edited by jonessed

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On 6/19/2019 at 12:08 PM, Bucky86 said:

Recently AOC made controversial comments that comparing ICE prisons to "Concentration Camps."

What do you think?

I think it meets the definition but the term’s usage now goes beyond the definition and therefore it is counterproductive to use the term. 

By the same token I think when you have to argue whether what you’re doing is a concentration camp or not based on the technical definition, your society is already f’d. 

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John McWhorter:

Quote

We can accept that “Don’t retreat, reload” isn’t always a command to shoot people, and that “I’ll pay the legal fees” if someone punches someone else in the face isn’t always a command to punch someone in the face. But then we must also accept that “concentration camp” harks back to the Nazis without exactly implying that Trump is literally pulling a Hitler. If the right can’t take what it dishes out, it might reconsider its comfort with metaphors of violence. In the meantime, the Trump administration’s “tender-age facility” will be, quite justifiably, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez’s “concentration camp.”

 

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7 hours ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

John McWhorter:

Quote

We can accept that “Don’t retreat, reload” isn’t always a command to shoot people, and that “I’ll pay the legal fees” if someone punches someone else in the face isn’t always a command to punch someone in the face. But then we must also accept that “concentration camp” harks back to the Nazis without exactly implying that Trump is literally pulling a Hitler. If the right can’t take what it dishes out, it might reconsider its comfort with metaphors of violence. In the meantime, the Trump administration’s “tender-age facility” will be, quite justifiably, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez’s “concentration camp.”

 

I would have expected you to be the sort of person who would endorse the bolded part.  When one side is using inflammatory rhetoric, the right approach is to insist that they knock it off, not to turn up the volume.

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I’ve stayed out of this thread because I didn’t want to be lynched. Too many Stalins in here eager to guillotine anyone who disagrees with them. I’m not going to allow you guys to decide for me to drink the hemlock; that’s MY choice. In the words of our President, it’s my own private Vietnam. 

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6 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I’ve stayed out of this thread because I didn’t want to be lynched.

That an inappropriate analogy, and you should be chastised for comparing your situation with the plight of many black people in our history.  The term "lynching" clearly refers to the racist lynching of blacks - and any attempt to co-opt that term is offensive.

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14 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I’ve stayed out of this thread because I didn’t want to be lynched. Too many Stalins in here eager to guillotine anyone who disagrees with them. I’m not going to allow you guys to decide for me to drink the hemlock; that’s MY choice. In the words of our President, it’s my own private Vietnam. 

I've been to Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq, and I can say without hyperbole that this is a million times worse than all of them put together.

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5 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

That an inappropriate analogy, and you should be chastised for comparing your situation with the plight of many black people in our history.  The term "lynching" clearly refers to the racist lynching of blacks - and any attempt to co-opt that term is offensive.

You’re treating me like Anne Frank here. 

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The swastika had a long history of standing for well-being.  You can look that up too.  Is it appropriate to use for that today?  

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21 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

The swastika had a long history of standing for well-being.  You can look that up too.  Is it appropriate to use for that today?  

That is true, the Nazis took over that symbol and very few people know it existed before they used it.  You are comparing a symbol to something that is quite a bit more, although it could be thought of as a symbol.

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Do we make any efforts, as national policy, to advertise in the countries of origin that we are not the land of milk and honey, not a land of open borders, not a solution for their desperate plight?  Do we publicize what happens when they arrive here?  Would that help stem the flow?

My guess is probably not.

Could we link foreign aid to reductions in immigrants and asylum seekers?  Say we are averaging 100,000 Guatemalans but we offer to double aid if that number is reduced to 20,000, would that help?  Maybe a bit.

The thing is desperate folks will act desperately and force their issue into our laps.  In the end who can blame them, they are desperate.

I do find those who have precipitated a crisis partially responsible for the response to the crisis.  On the other hand I am sure they might argue that they did not precipitate the crisis, that they are merely reacting to a crisis not of their making and that in fact our policies over the last century are in fact the precipitating act.

In the end some basic humanity is undoubtedly called for and we are falling below that responsibility.  Inconvenient, yes, costly, a bit maybe, but what price our own humanity?

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10 hours ago, Hawkeye21 said:

That is true, the Nazis took over that symbol and very few people know it existed before they used it.  You are comparing a symbol to something that is quite a bit more, although it could be thought of as a symbol.

Actually I think this is common knowledge by now, having been over-cited as an example of things people don't know so often that now everybody does know, or so I tend to think.

Edited by Ditkaless Wonders
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18 minutes ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

Actually I thin this is common knowledge by now, having been over-cited as an example of things people don't know so often that now everybody does know, or so I tend to think.

I'm not sure I personally know anyone that knows much about it at all.  I can think of one person for sure but that's because he knows all kinds of random stuff.  I hope a lot of people know though, then maybe they could accept that these camps are similar to concentration camps and no matter what you want to call them the whole situation is pretty terrible.

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1 minute ago, Hawkeye21 said:

I'm not sure I personally know anyone that knows much about it at all.  I can think of one person for sure but that's because he knows all kinds of random stuff.  I hope a lot of people know though, then maybe they could accept that these camps are similar to concentration camps and no matter what you want to call them the whole situation is pretty terrible.

Indeed.  I hope my aside did not in any way detract from the overall point you were making.  It was a small, mostly irrelevant collateral matter that grabbed my attention and maybe my perception on that collateral matter is wrong, certainly there is ample precedent for that to be the case. 

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Just now, Ditkaless Wonders said:

Indeed.  I hope my aside did not in any way detract from the overall point you were making.  It was a small, mostly irrelevant collateral matter that grabbed my attention and maybe my perception on that collateral matter is wrong, certainly there is ample precedent for that to be the case. 

I didn't think of it as a detraction.  We're good.

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19 hours ago, badmojo1006 said:

Ok, what are they then? From what I see, there are fences, with armed guards and the people inside are not allowed to leave.

Sounds like a prison to me.

and :lol: that she doesn't get re-elected. 

CONCENTRATION CAMP

 

pay attention

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4 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

CONCENTRATION CAMP

 

pay attention

Ok. Kinda brave for you to admit, but I recognize your courage. Pretty soon you will be leading the IMPEACH TRUMP charge.

Winning over Trump supporters one at a time

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30 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

Whatever it is, it’s a shame on the richest nation in the world 

 

A Trump administration lawyer has disputed in court whether detained migrant children are entitled to toothbrushes and soap.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-48710432

It’s terrible. And that’s what’s wrong with AOC’s statement. She’s giving the Trump defenders an out. 

Rather than bringing up stuff like toothpaste and soap, which they can’t defend, we call it a concentration camp. Instead of having to justify what they’re doing wrong, they can point the finger at liberals and say “look at the extreme language they’re using!” Which is exactly what they’re doing. 

We don’t need hyperbole to attack these camps. They’re awful all by themselves. Don’t give the nativist types any rope. They don’t deserve it. 

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I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I think we could provide some sort of sleeping mat if not a bed proper, closed cell foam maybe, a sheet, a blanket, a secure room or area that can lock out molesters while one sleeps, a wash cloth, a tooth brush, some tooth paste, a bit of soap, three square meals a day including fresh fruit and fresh vegetables, and I don't know, access to hot water for a wash every couple of days and a place to poop in privacy with enough ventilation you don't choke and with azzwipe available.  I might even extend myself to provide a bit of exercise and sunlight from time to time in age normalized groups so that the powerful do not prey upon the weak.  I might even allow contact between kids and relatives and between all detainees and legal counsel so long as that legal counsel was not from La Raza or the ACLU, we don't want to encourage those sorts now do we?

Edited by Ditkaless Wonders

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4 hours ago, Ilov80s said:

Whatever it is, it’s a shame on the richest nation in the world 

 

A Trump administration lawyer has disputed in court whether detained migrant children are entitled to toothbrushes and soap.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-48710432

I don’t have a problem giving those items to th but I don’t believe they are entitled to them

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23 hours ago, -fish- said:

I strongly suggest RAICES if someone wants to donate.   I've volunteered legal work to them and it's a great organization.   They provide legal services, create social programs for refugees and families coming out of detention, pay bonds for refugees to be released and help with resettlement among other things.

Hopefully @-fish- doesn't mind me stepping on his toes here a bit I'll also plug the "Florence Immigration Project" if you want to help those detained.  I've worked with them and they've been incredibly helpful and they do great work. 

https://firrp.org 

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16 minutes ago, HellToupee said:

I don’t have a problem giving those items to th but I don’t believe they are entitled to them

Not a big fan of that whole Bill of Rights, huh?

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57 minutes ago, HellToupee said:

I don’t have a problem giving those items to th but I don’t believe they are entitled to them

Child migrants?

 

We take them into custody - we have a responsibility to ensure they are taken care of properly.  And by properly I don't mean sleeping on concrete floors with a blanket, and no soap or toothbrushes.

Human rights extend to all people, not just citizens...

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Quote

But the argument is really about how we perceive history, ourselves, and ourselves in history. We learn to think of history as something that has already happened, to other people. Our own moment, filled as it is with minutiae destined to be forgotten, always looks smaller in comparison. As for history, the greater the event, the more mythologized it becomes. Despite our best intentions, the myth becomes a caricature of sorts. Hitler, or Stalin, comes to look like a two-dimensional villain—someone whom contemporaries could not have seen as a human being. The Holocaust, or the Gulag, are such monstrous events that the very idea of rendering them in any sort of gray scale seems monstrous, too. This has the effect of making them, essentially, unimaginable. In crafting the story of something that should never have been allowed to happen, we forge the story of something that couldn’t possibly have happened. Or, to use a phrase only slightly out of context, something that can’t happen here.

A logical fallacy becomes inevitable. If this can’t happen, then the thing that is happening is not it. What we see in real life, or at least on television, can’t possibly be the same monstrous phenomenon that we have collectively decided is unimaginable. 

[snip]

Anything that happens here and now is normalized, not solely through the moral failure of contemporaries but simply by virtue of actually existing.

Exactly this.

Edited by Dinsy Ejotuz
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1 hour ago, Sinn Fein said:

Child migrants?

 

We take them into custody - we have a responsibility to ensure they are taken care of properly.  And by properly I don't mean sleeping on concrete floors with a blanket, and no soap or toothbrushes.

Human rights extend to all people, not just citizens...

I don’t have a problem providing them with hygiene products, they just aren’t entitled . Probably not a lot of toothbrushes on the caravan

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52 minutes ago, HellToupee said:

I don’t have a problem providing them with hygiene products, they just aren’t entitled . Probably not a lot of toothbrushes on the caravan

And after all, its only their baby teeth.*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*For the sarcasm impaired that was my run at a bit of it.

Edited by Ditkaless Wonders
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3 hours ago, Zow said:

Not a big fan of that whole Bill of Rights, huh?

What does the Bill of Rights have to do with toothbrushes and soap?

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1 minute ago, dickey moe said:

What does the Bill of Rights have to do with toothbrushes and soap?

Four out of five forefathers recommend toothbrushes, for those who have teeth.

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On 6/20/2019 at 4:48 PM, Joe Bryant said:

I think this hits about where I am.

And also brings up something I hadn't really thought about. I know in my head Concentration Camps aren't the same as Death Camps but I think in my heart when I hear Concentration Camps I hear Death Camps. I wonder how many would do the same. 

Would you agree that any federal minimum security prison is a prison even if it's not the same as a Super Max or the Turkish prison depicted in the movie Midnight Express?

The term concentration camp originated from the British Empire's camps during the Boer War. (apparently the Spain had something similar in Cuba before that) They were pretty bad but they also weren't Auchwitz. If there can be distinctions between prisons why can't there be distictions between concentration camps?

I don't agree with the idea that "internment camp" is really a distinct category from concentration camp". It's just a code word to make it more acceptable. It also reminds me of the Reagan era argument that far right wing "authoritarian regimes" (for example the Pinochet regime in Chile)  were really different and much better that left wing "totalitarian regimes" (Castro in Cuba)

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7 hours ago, Ilov80s said:

Whatever it is, it’s a shame on the richest nation in the world 

 

A Trump administration lawyer has disputed in court whether detained migrant children are entitled to toothbrushes and soap.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-48710432

A lot of people are getting hung up on labels and using AOC's comments as an excuse to ignore the key point here.  I'm not interested in fighting on those terms.  What the Trump admin is doing at the border is morally abhorrent.  Full stop.

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3 hours ago, HellToupee said:

I don’t have a problem providing them with hygiene products, they just aren’t entitled . Probably not a lot of toothbrushes on the caravan

They’re innocent human beings we have locked up. I think they’re entitled. 

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19 hours ago, IvanKaramazov said:

I would have expected you to be the sort of person who would endorse the bolded part.  When one side is using inflammatory rhetoric, the right approach is to insist that they knock it off, not to turn up the volume.

There doesn't seem to be any sign that telling "the other side" to knock it off is going to have any useful effect. Taking the high road leads the other side to think you're too weak or cowardly to stand up to being bullied. It fires up the base of the side using the inflammatory rhetoric and demoralizes your own base.

It's my opinion that at this point in time in the US the key to winning elections is firing up the base of your own party, not appealing to the middle.  In competition people will continue to use tactics that they believe help them win, their opponents will adopt those tactics too.  

It would be a better world if telling people to behave better worked, but that clearly isn't this world.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Insomniac said:

There doesn't seem to be any sign that telling "the other side" to knock it off is going to have any useful effect. Taking the high road leads the other side to think you're too weak or cowardly to stand up to being bullied. It fires up the base of the side using the inflammatory rhetoric and demoralizes your own base.

It's my opinion that at this point in time in the US the key to winning elections is firing up the base of your own party, not appealing to the middle.  In competition people will continue to use tactics that they believe help them win, their opponents will adopt those tactics too.  

It would be a better world if telling people to behave better worked, but that clearly isn't this world.

I at least appreciate your honesty that this is really all about scoring political points and winning elections, as opposed to being correct or accurate.

Edited by IvanKaramazov

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I would be for giving trump his wall money if it meant these kids would receive, at the very least, the same treatment we give our felons, but it’s falling way short of that, and wall money won’t change anything. 

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19 minutes ago, Snorkelson said:

I would be for giving trump his wall money if it meant these kids would receive, at the very least, the same treatment we give our felons, but it’s falling way short of that, and wall money won’t change anything. 

How about the 3.1 billion in aid money that they asked for separate from any wall funding?  

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3 hours ago, IvanKaramazov said:

I at least appreciate your honesty that this is really all about scoring political points and winning elections, as opposed to being correct or accurate.

If I can show you that people who study this issue seriously used the term before Trump and criticized Obama and GWB for the camp system they created would it change your mind?

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36 minutes ago, Dinsy Ejotuz said:

If I can show you that people who study this issue seriously used the term before Trump and criticized Obama and GWB for the camp system they created would it change your mind?

No.  I would have objected to the use of that term to describe detainment under Obama too.

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5 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

No.  I would have objected to the use of that term to describe detainment under Obama too.

You said that it was about scoring points and winning elections.  Exactly who are you trying to elect if you're scoring points against GWB, Obama and Trump?

Edited by Dinsy Ejotuz

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13 minutes ago, Dinsy Ejotuz said:

You said that it was about scoring points and winning elections.  

No, Imsoniac said that.  I said it shouldn't be.

8 hours ago, Insomniac said:

There doesn't seem to be any sign that telling "the other side" to knock it off is going to have any useful effect. Taking the high road leads the other side to think you're too weak or cowardly to stand up to being bullied. It fires up the base of the side using the inflammatory rhetoric and demoralizes your own base.

It's my opinion that at this point in time in the US the key to winning elections is firing up the base of your own party, not appealing to the middle.  In competition people will continue to use tactics that they believe help them win, their opponents will adopt those tactics too.  

It would be a better world if telling people to behave better worked, but that clearly isn't this world.

 

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Just now, IvanKaramazov said:

No, Imsoniac said that.  I said it shouldn't be.

 

It's my opinion that the GOP has been using the inflammatory rhetoric tactic for at least as long as Rush Limbaugh has been on the air. It's helped them win elections. Now that AOC uses the same tactic it's really horrible thing to do. Can't say I've heard much complaint about talk radio from conservatives in this country over the last few yeaars even though every hour or so they say something as bad or worse. 

I'd also note that taking the "moral high ground" is another strategy often used to score points. It doesn't seem to be as effective in helping win elections. 

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16 minutes ago, badmojo1006 said:

Here’s the videos of her defending kids with no soap, no beds, etc. She basically says the kids are not entitled to sleep.

https://twitter.com/scotthech/status/1142391852072652800?s=21

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