Shouting it out is probably not a good way to go. We have simple verbal signs (stay back = off speed; be ready = FB) or if coming from runner at 2B then simple hands inside knees = FB and outside knees = off speed.No. It probably reduces the benefit of being able to steal signs though.
Not anymore than the pitcher sticking one near the ear hole of the batter for doing so #UnwrittenRulesSimple Question: Girls 16 Year old Softball. Is it poor sportsmanship for players to yell out what pitches the catcher is calling if you can see the signs?
Why would a batter yell out the type of pitch to herself?Not anymore than the pitcher sticking one near the ear hole of the batter for doing so #UnwrittenRules
Yeah, this is a really good point.Doesn't help them get any better if they need to know when a change up is coming to hit it..
Dumb and as annoying as the "rhyming chants", but not poor sportsmanship...
It actually can help them get better. If they know a pitch is coming they can pick up tells from the pitcher easier so they can possibly use that down the line when the pitches aren't known. The more information you have about arm slot, arm speed, tapping glove prior to throwing a certain pitch, etc the better hitter you become. Sometimes knowing what is coming and putting that together with the sequence of movement helps tremendously.Doesn't help them get any better if they need to know when a change up is coming to hit it..
Dumb and as annoying as the "rhyming chants", but not poor sportsmanship...
I don't think this is the same situation, but I see your point.I voted not poor sportsmanship. It's more of a I don't really care but it would seem at high school level this would be acceptable to me. I mean, our high school football coaches watch footage and try to pick up on any tells from the opponent and communicate that to the boys.
At 16U, if they hear "change up".. they aren't studying the pitcher or looking for tells.. They are sitting on the change up because they know it's coming. If they don't know it's coming, they are watching the release point, rotation of the ball, etc, trying to pick up on what pitch it might be. Telling them it's coming isn't helping them.. Sitting in the dugout, studying the pitcher and telling them, "Hey, watch her wind up, she grips the ball a little different when the change up is coming".. Or "hey, she slows everything down a touch on the change up, watch for it".. That's helping them.. not just telling them it's coming..It actually can help them get better. If they know a pitch is coming they can pick up tells from the pitcher easier so they can possibly use that down the line when the pitches aren't known. The more information you have about arm slot, arm speed, tapping glove prior to throwing a certain pitch, etc the better hitter you become. Sometimes knowing what is coming and putting that together with the sequence of movement helps tremendously.
Major Leaguers do that all the time when studying film. It's easier to pick out these nuances when you know what pitch is coming.
Dang you're 12u teams must be a heck of a lot better than ours, no way catchers are giving signs around here at that age. lolNow if it's 12 or under I usually let the other coach know that the catcher isn't hiding the signs so they can learn and work on it.
This. So much this.stealing the signs and relaying them to the batter in some code-like manner? - "gamesmanship" which has it's own grey areas of judgement, IMO
blatantly yelling them out? - poor sportsmanship or at least really close to it.
Coaches like this make no sense to me. Not only should he be teaching his pitcher how to attack hitters, he should be teaching his catchers how to call a game. I could see where an important AB comes up and the coach wants to take full control of the game, but the whole game? Get over yourself and teach your players something. They're 12.Years ago my sons baseball team (Peewee, so 12 year olds) played a team where the coach sat on the bench, faced his catcher and gave him the sign before every pitch. Standard 1=Fastball, 2=Curve. Didn't take our team and coaches long to see what was happening so the players and coaches started saying it out loud to the batter. It was humorous as their coach lost his #### and our coaches just said "do a better job hiding it" and probably added "moron" to that. At one point he'd put down a 1 to his catcher then say out loud "curve".
I don't think there's anything wrong with it. Coaches have multiple signs for baserunners and the batters (bunting, etc) to avoid the defending team knowing what's happening. I see no difference here.
I agree- there are unwritten rules here.stealing the signs and relaying them to the batter in some code-like manner? - "gamesmanship" which has it's own grey areas of judgement, IMO
blatantly yelling them out? - poor sportsmanship or at least really close to it.
Could have been his inability to see where the strike zone was when throwing...We had a pitcher with bad eyesight who wouldn't wear his glasses during a game. I would flash him some random signs and he would shake me off or nod. Then I would have to put a fist or open hand on my knee to tell him what I wanted him to throw. (fist = fastball, open hand = curveball)
Come to think of it, he had some monster shots hit off him. Maybe they caught on.
We had a pitcher with bad eyesight who wouldn't wear his glasses during a game. I would flash him some random signs and he would shake me off or nod. Then I would have to put a fist or open hand on my knee to tell him what I wanted him to throw. (fist = fastball, open hand = curveball)
Come to think of it, he had some monster shots hit off him. Maybe they caught on.
If they aren't trying to study the pitcher to look for tells then you need to teach them about that aspect. You need to teach the players about what to look for and that can be helped with knowing the pitch is coming. You can use this as a teaching opportunity. My point was you have an opportunity to expand knowledge so use it.At 16U, if they hear "change up".. they aren't studying the pitcher or looking for tells.. They are sitting on the change up because they know it's coming. If they don't know it's coming, they are watching the release point, rotation of the ball, etc, trying to pick up on what pitch it might me. Telling them it's coming isn't helping them.. Sitting in the dugout, studying the pitcher and telling them, "Hey, watch her wind up, she grips the ball a little different when the change up is coming".. Or "hey, she slows everything down a touch on the change up, watch for it".. That's helping them.. not just telling them it's coming..
At that age group I called pitches for all the games but I would discuss the calls with the catcher/pitcher between innings and at practices to teach them the pitch sequencing and what to do to set up batters. I would have my catchers try and predict the pitches I would be calling and work with them to see how they are doing. As catchers became better at this in practice/games and became comfortable with setting up a game the job is transferred over.Coaches like this make no sense to me. Not only should he be teaching his pitcher how to attack hitters, he should be teaching his catchers how to call a game. I could see where an important AB comes up and the coach wants to take full control of the game, but the whole game? Get over yourself and teach your players something. They're 12.
Softball tells are very limited especially from the distance imoIf they aren't trying to study the pitcher to look for tells then you need to teach them about that aspect. You need to teach the players about what to look for and that can be helped with knowing the pitch is coming. You can use this as a teaching opportunity. My point was you have an opportunity to expand knowledge so use it.
Was your goal to win games, or to teach? The best way to learn how to call a game is to call a game. (IMHO)At that age group I called pitches for all the games but I would discuss the calls with the catcher/pitcher between innings and at practices to teach them the pitch sequencing and what to do to set up batters. I would have my catchers try and predict the pitches I would be calling and work with them to see how they are doing. As catchers became better at this in practice/games and became comfortable with setting up a game the job is transferred over.
You can't just start with hey catcher go call your own game. You have to give them some instruction and help so they can start to learn and figure it out. Some catchers took longer and other pick it up quickly.
Fastpitch. Some can really throw some junk. Fastballs, changups, cureveballs, risers, drops, knuckleballs.I didn't even know there were signs in softball. I thought every pitch was the same.
Players onlyless of problem with players then when a coach does it
Travel ballTravel ball = fine
Rec ball = bush league
No. It probably reduces the benefit of being able to steal signs though.
It’s not poor sportsmanship, it’s dumb. If the other team has any smarts they would use that to their advantage and start randomly changing things up.
15-16 year olds. Thinking things through isn’t always the first step.I don't see the problem, but yelling them? Egad, have a sign or something.
Trust me, I'm well aware of that.15-16 year olds. Thinking things through isn’t always the first step.
I agree that they do need to learn by doing but you also have to give them some help in figuring out how to get started. I have found they progress much faster if they see what is being called and then think about why and ask questions along the way. It's very valuable to use that as a basis of conversation to get through a particular pitch sequence. Coaches calling pitches with no discussion between innings or at practice about why a sequence is used does not do anything. But working with your catcher to get them thinking about how to call a game works very well in my experience.Was your goal to win games, or to teach? The best way to learn how to call a game is to call a game. (IMHO)
Whether intentional or not, that’s what happened. The pitcher and especially the catcher, were completely rattled.I think the point of the yelling is to throw the pitcher off her game and getting in her head. Obviously giving up that you are reading the signs is not bright. The pitcher knowing that the batter "knows" the pitch that is coming might get her to doubt or change the pitch mid pitch.
completely intentional 90% sure. same as the chant 3 and 2 whatcha gonna doooooo? walk her walk her walk her... chant. my daughter pitches in 16 yo level softball. getting ready for first year of high school ball. I've seen all the head games up to and including the entire other dugout standing on the fence rattling it and just screaming at the top of their lungs, stay classy Oklahoma. 99% of the time I can hold my tongue but some of the coaching tactics is just to much. delay , call time out, argue with umpires, anything to break up a pitchers rhythm. something anything. then it's hard not to be vocal.Whether intentional or not, that’s what happened. The pitcher and especially the catcher, were completely rattled.
As a batter you want to disrupt a pitchers rhythm for sure. Now purposely arguing with umps seems a bit like a stretch. But stepping out of the box, coach giving signs to slow down the opposing pitcher is all part of the game and I don't see anything wrong with that kind of stuff. Making noise from the dugout is another thing that isn't an issue as long as personal attacks on the opposing player aren't being yelled. Just screaming and making noise is fine. It's not golf.Hot Diggity Dog said:completely intentional 90% sure. same as the chant 3 and 2 whatcha gonna doooooo? walk her walk her walk her... chant. my daughter pitches in 16 yo level softball. getting ready for first year of high school ball. I've seen all the head games up to and including the entire other dugout standing on the fence rattling it and just screaming at the top of their lungs, stay classy Oklahoma. 99% of the time I can hold my tongue but some of the coaching tactics is just to much. delay , call time out, argue with umpires, anything to break up a pitchers rhythm. something anything. then it's hard not to be vocal.