What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.

Poor Sportsmanship? (1 Viewer)

Is This Poor Sportsmanship?

  • Not at all

    Votes: 35 38.0%
  • A little bit

    Votes: 14 15.2%
  • Yes

    Votes: 43 46.7%

  • Total voters
    92

Cjw_55106

Footballguy
Simple Question: Girls 16 Year old Softball. Is it poor sportsmanship for players to yell out what pitches the catcher is calling if you can see the signs? 

 
I have never understood people that think relaying pitches is bad sportsmanship or shouldn't be done.  Assuming you aren't using electronic surveillance and are just getting it because the catcher isn't good at giving signs (or you have figured out their signs because you are observant) -  I don't see anything wrong with relaying it to the batter. 

Now if it's 12 or under I usually let the other coach know that the catcher isn't hiding the signs so they can learn and work on it. 

 
No. It probably reduces the benefit of being able to steal signs though.
Shouting it out is probably not a good way to go.  We have simple verbal signs (stay back = off speed; be ready = FB) or if coming from runner at 2B then simple hands inside knees = FB and outside knees = off speed. 

 
It also depends on the batter.  Some batters prefer not to have to think about hearing/seeing a sign late and then having their mind cluttered with processing the info.  I always wanted to know as long as we were sure we had the signs.  Nothing like thinking breaking ball and having it be the heater up and in.......hahahahaha

 
stealing the signs and relaying them to the batter in some code-like manner? - "gamesmanship" which has it's own grey areas of judgement, IMO

blatantly yelling them out? - poor sportsmanship or at least really close to it. 

 
it would be cool if you could control the scoreboard at your local 16 year old girls softball arena and put the pitches up on the scoreboard with awesome graphics like a guy dancing to none other than henry mancinis baby elephont walk that would really spice things up in my opinion take that to the bank bromigos 

 
I thought giving signs was done away with when every pitcher and catcher started wearing a wrist band and had to wait for the coach in the dugout to give some type of signal and then we have to wait for both the pitcher and catcher to look at their wristband before a pitch gets thrown about 5 minutes later....

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Seems there are three questions here.

Is stealing signs and signaling your player poor sportsmanship? No.

Is yelling poor sportsmanship? Probably.

Is doing this really stupid? Yes. How many 16 year old girl softball signs can there really be that you cant use a gesture so you don't give away that you know the sign?

 
Doesn't help them get any better if they need to know when a change up is coming to hit it..

Dumb and as annoying as the "rhyming chants", but not poor sportsmanship...

 
I voted not poor sportsmanship. It's more of a I don't really care but it would seem at high school level this would be acceptable to me. I mean, our high school football coaches watch footage and try to pick up on any tells from the opponent and communicate that to the boys.

 
Doesn't help them get any better if they need to know when a change up is coming to hit it..

Dumb and as annoying as the "rhyming chants", but not poor sportsmanship...
It actually can help them get better.  If they know a pitch is coming they can pick up tells from the pitcher easier so they can possibly use that down the line when the pitches aren't known.  The more information you have about arm slot, arm speed, tapping glove prior to throwing a certain pitch, etc the better hitter you become.  Sometimes knowing what is coming and putting that together with the sequence of movement helps tremendously. 

Major Leaguers do that all the time when studying film.  It's easier to pick out these nuances when you know what pitch is coming. 

 
I voted not poor sportsmanship. It's more of a I don't really care but it would seem at high school level this would be acceptable to me. I mean, our high school football coaches watch footage and try to pick up on any tells from the opponent and communicate that to the boys.
I don't think this is the same situation, but I see your point.

I think a more similar situation would be when a pitcher has a tell, they hold their glove a certain way when a certain pitch is coming.  Go back to the dugout and tell your teammates.  But, I always look at the pitcher/hitter matchup as a one on one event.  Now, when coaches start calling pitches from the dugout, and the pitcher, catcher, and all the fielders have armbands on so they all know what is being call, then I would say all is fair game.

 
It actually can help them get better.  If they know a pitch is coming they can pick up tells from the pitcher easier so they can possibly use that down the line when the pitches aren't known.  The more information you have about arm slot, arm speed, tapping glove prior to throwing a certain pitch, etc the better hitter you become.  Sometimes knowing what is coming and putting that together with the sequence of movement helps tremendously. 

Major Leaguers do that all the time when studying film.  It's easier to pick out these nuances when you know what pitch is coming. 
At 16U, if they hear "change up".. they aren't studying the pitcher or looking for tells.. They are sitting on the change up because they know it's coming.  If they don't know it's coming, they are watching the release point, rotation of the ball, etc, trying to pick up on what pitch it might be.  Telling them it's coming isn't helping them..  Sitting in the dugout, studying the pitcher and telling them, "Hey, watch her wind up, she grips the ball a little different when the change up is coming".. Or "hey, she slows everything down a touch on the change up, watch for it".. That's helping them.. not just telling them it's coming..

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Now if it's 12 or under I usually let the other coach know that the catcher isn't hiding the signs so they can learn and work on it. 
Dang you're 12u teams must be a heck of a lot better than ours, no way catchers are giving signs around here at that age.  lol

I voted for not unsportsmanlike, if the other coach has half a brain he would just change the signs up or use it to his advantage.

 
Years ago my sons baseball team (Peewee, so 12 year olds) played a team where the coach sat on the bench, faced his catcher and gave him the sign before every pitch. Standard 1=Fastball, 2=Curve. Didn't take our team and coaches long to see what was happening so the players and coaches started saying it out loud to the batter. It was humorous as their coach lost his #### and our coaches just said "do a better job hiding it" and probably added "moron" to that.  At one point he'd put down a 1 to his catcher then say out loud "curve". :lmao: :loco:

I don't think there's anything wrong with it.  Coaches have multiple signs for baserunners and the batters (bunting, etc)  to avoid the defending team knowing what's happening. I see no difference here.

 
Years ago my sons baseball team (Peewee, so 12 year olds) played a team where the coach sat on the bench, faced his catcher and gave him the sign before every pitch. Standard 1=Fastball, 2=Curve. Didn't take our team and coaches long to see what was happening so the players and coaches started saying it out loud to the batter. It was humorous as their coach lost his #### and our coaches just said "do a better job hiding it" and probably added "moron" to that.  At one point he'd put down a 1 to his catcher then say out loud "curve". :lmao: :loco:

I don't think there's anything wrong with it.  Coaches have multiple signs for baserunners and the batters (bunting, etc)  to avoid the defending team knowing what's happening. I see no difference here.
Coaches like this make no sense to me.  Not only should he be teaching his pitcher how to attack hitters, he should be teaching his catchers how to call a game.  I could see where an important AB comes up and the coach wants to take full control of the game, but the whole game?  Get over yourself and teach your players something.  They're 12.

 
stealing the signs and relaying them to the batter in some code-like manner? - "gamesmanship" which has it's own grey areas of judgement, IMO

blatantly yelling them out? - poor sportsmanship or at least really close to it. 
I agree- there are unwritten rules here. 

 
We had a pitcher with bad eyesight who wouldn't wear his glasses during a game.  I would flash him some random signs and he would shake me off or nod.  Then I would have to put a fist or open hand on my knee to tell him what I wanted him to throw.  (fist = fastball, open hand = curveball)

Come to think of it, he had some monster shots hit off him.  Maybe they caught on. 

 
Last edited by a moderator:
We had a pitcher with bad eyesight who wouldn't wear his glasses during a game.  I would flash him some random signs and he would shake me off or nod.  Then I would have to put a fist or open hand on my knee to tell him what I wanted him to throw.  (fist = fastball, open hand = curveball)

Come to think of it, he had some monster shots hit off him.  Maybe they caught on. 
Could have been his inability to see where the strike zone was when throwing...

 
We had a pitcher with bad eyesight who wouldn't wear his glasses during a game.  I would flash him some random signs and he would shake me off or nod.  Then I would have to put a fist or open hand on my knee to tell him what I wanted him to throw.  (fist = fastball, open hand = curveball)

Come to think of it, he had some monster shots hit off him.  Maybe they caught on. 
:lol:

Maybe if you made sure the other team knew he had bad vision they wouldn't have got so comfortable in the box. :)

 
Last edited by a moderator:
At 16U, if they hear "change up".. they aren't studying the pitcher or looking for tells.. They are sitting on the change up because they know it's coming.  If they don't know it's coming, they are watching the release point, rotation of the ball, etc, trying to pick up on what pitch it might me.  Telling them it's coming isn't helping them..  Sitting in the dugout, studying the pitcher and telling them, "Hey, watch her wind up, she grips the ball a little different when the change up is coming".. Or "hey, she slows everything down a touch on the change up, watch for it".. That's helping them.. not just telling them it's coming..
If they aren't trying to study the pitcher to look for tells then you need to teach them about that aspect.  You need to teach the players about what to look for and that can be helped with knowing the pitch is coming.  You can use this as a teaching opportunity.  My point was you have an opportunity to expand knowledge so use it. 

 
Coaches like this make no sense to me.  Not only should he be teaching his pitcher how to attack hitters, he should be teaching his catchers how to call a game.  I could see where an important AB comes up and the coach wants to take full control of the game, but the whole game?  Get over yourself and teach your players something.  They're 12.
At that age group I called pitches for all the games but I would discuss the calls with the catcher/pitcher between innings and at practices to teach them the pitch sequencing and what to do to set up batters.  I would have my catchers try and predict the pitches I would be calling and work with them to see how they are doing.  As catchers became better at this in practice/games and became comfortable with setting up a game the job is transferred over. 

You can't just start with hey catcher go call your own game.  You have to give them some instruction and help so they can start to learn and figure it out.  Some catchers took longer and other pick it up quickly. 

 
If they aren't trying to study the pitcher to look for tells then you need to teach them about that aspect.  You need to teach the players about what to look for and that can be helped with knowing the pitch is coming.  You can use this as a teaching opportunity.  My point was you have an opportunity to expand knowledge so use it. 
Softball tells are very limited especially from the distance imo

 
At that age group I called pitches for all the games but I would discuss the calls with the catcher/pitcher between innings and at practices to teach them the pitch sequencing and what to do to set up batters.  I would have my catchers try and predict the pitches I would be calling and work with them to see how they are doing.  As catchers became better at this in practice/games and became comfortable with setting up a game the job is transferred over. 

You can't just start with hey catcher go call your own game.  You have to give them some instruction and help so they can start to learn and figure it out.  Some catchers took longer and other pick it up quickly. 
Was your goal to win games, or to teach?  The best way to learn how to call a game is to call a game. (IMHO)

 
I didn't even know there were signs in softball. I thought every pitch was the same.
:no:   Fastpitch.  Some can really throw some junk.  Fastballs, changups, cureveballs, risers, drops, knuckleballs.  :shrug:  

I caught men's fastpitch for a while.  We didn't have signals.  A couple of the old-timers could make me look foolish when they would throw a changeup.

 
No. It probably reduces the benefit of being able to steal signs though.


It’s not poor sportsmanship, it’s dumb. If the other team has any smarts they would use that to their advantage and start randomly changing things up.


I don't see the problem, but yelling them? Egad, have a sign or something.
15-16 year olds. Thinking things through isn’t always the first step.

 
Was your goal to win games, or to teach?  The best way to learn how to call a game is to call a game. (IMHO)
I agree that they do need to learn by doing but you also have to give them some help in figuring out how to get started.  I have found they progress much faster if they see what is being called and then think about why and ask questions along the way.  It's very valuable to use that as a basis of conversation to get through a particular pitch sequence.   Coaches calling pitches with no discussion between innings or at practice about why a sequence is used does not do anything.  But working with your catcher to get them thinking about how to call a game works very well in my experience. 

 
I think the point of the yelling is to throw the pitcher off her game and getting in her head.  Obviously giving up that you are reading the signs is not bright.  The pitcher knowing that the batter "knows" the pitch that is coming might get her to doubt or change the pitch mid pitch.

 
I think the point of the yelling is to throw the pitcher off her game and getting in her head.  Obviously giving up that you are reading the signs is not bright.  The pitcher knowing that the batter "knows" the pitch that is coming might get her to doubt or change the pitch mid pitch.
Whether intentional or not, that’s what happened. The pitcher and especially the catcher, were completely rattled. 

 
An MLB pitcher intentionally balked in the 9th inning with 2 outs, up 2 runs and a man on 2nd. He knew the runner on 2nd didn't matter and didn't want him trying to steal signs, so he intentionally balked to force the runner to 3rd and proceeded to get the batter out. A very interesting and seemingly smart move that I've never heard of before.

Sorry, not an answer in any way, but a fascinating situation in the realm of the question.

 
Whether intentional or not, that’s what happened. The pitcher and especially the catcher, were completely rattled. 
completely intentional 90% sure.  same as the chant 3 and 2 whatcha gonna doooooo?  walk her walk her walk her...  chant.   my daughter pitches in 16 yo level softball.  getting ready for first year of high school ball.  I've seen all the head games up to and including the entire other dugout standing on the fence rattling it and just screaming at the top of their lungs, stay classy Oklahoma.   99% of the time I can hold my tongue but some of the coaching tactics is just to much.  delay , call time out, argue with umpires,  anything to break up a pitchers rhythm.  something anything.  then it's hard not to be vocal.  

 
Hot Diggity Dog said:
completely intentional 90% sure.  same as the chant 3 and 2 whatcha gonna doooooo?  walk her walk her walk her...  chant.   my daughter pitches in 16 yo level softball.  getting ready for first year of high school ball.  I've seen all the head games up to and including the entire other dugout standing on the fence rattling it and just screaming at the top of their lungs, stay classy Oklahoma.   99% of the time I can hold my tongue but some of the coaching tactics is just to much.  delay , call time out, argue with umpires,  anything to break up a pitchers rhythm.  something anything.  then it's hard not to be vocal.  
As a batter you want to disrupt a pitchers rhythm for sure.  Now purposely arguing with umps seems a bit like a stretch.  But stepping out of the box, coach giving signs to slow down the opposing pitcher is all part of the game and I don't see anything wrong with that kind of stuff.  Making noise from the dugout is another thing that isn't an issue as long as personal attacks on the opposing player aren't being yelled.  Just screaming and making noise is fine.  It's not golf. 

 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top