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Detainment At Border - We Can Do Much Better - Why The Opposition? (1 Viewer)

Joe Bryant

Joe Bryant

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I don't think anyone who looks at the current border situation objectively would disagree with the idea we can do better.

The question I've been asking is why we can't actually agree with that?

This recent exchange between two Christian leaders is fascinating to me. 

Why is Jerry Falwell so upset that Russell Moore spoke out against conditions facing migrant children?

Dr. Russell Moore, the President of The Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention, is one of many Christian leaders speaking out on the conditions the children are facing. He tweeted, “The reports of the conditions for migrant children at the border should shock all of our consciences. Those created in the image of God should be treated with dignity and compassion, especially those seeking refuge from violence back home. We can do better than this.”

In his own tweet, Falwell wrote to Dr. Moore, “Who are you @drmoore ? Have you ever made a payroll? Have you ever built an organization of any type from scratch? What gives you authority to speak on any issue? I’m being serious. You’re nothing but an employee—a bureaucrat.”

There’s a lot to unpack here. First, it’s not clear what Falwell found so objectionable about Russell Moore’s tweet. Falwell is an outspoken supporter of President Trump, but these types of facilities have operated at different capacities over several presidential administrations.

Also, what point is Falwell even trying to make? Because Dr. Moore is employed by the Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention (of which he is the president), that makes him unqualified to say children “created in the image of God should be treated with dignity and compassion”?

And, government lawyers have literally argued against providing this children with soap and toothbrushes. It hardly seems like a stretch to say, “We can do better than this.” In fact, four children have died in government custody in the last si months. Prior to that, it had been a decade since a child had died in similar government custody. Saying “we can do better than this” is an objective fact.

Also, Falwell Jr. said this: “Have you ever built an organization of any type from scratch?” It should be noted that Falwell Jr.’s father founded Liberty University, the school of which Falwell is currently president. Even the Liberty website says, “With the passing of the founder in 2007, his son, Jerry Falwell Jr., became chancellor and president of the university.”

Falwell Jr. seems to think that an influential Christian leader with a large platform and power to challenge fellow Christians to action shouldn’t speak out against injustice.

What other point is he possibly trying to make here?
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One might make the case Falwell is under some type of blackmail or influence from Trump. But I see other people who I don't believe are being blackmailed by anyone make similar claims.

Are we that tribal where "our side" can do no wrong?

Does the "other" side have any role in this? 

I don't know. I just wish we could get right what we all objectively know needs to be right. 

 
The House just passed an emergency aid bill. Trump says he will veto because it’s too restrictive on how he will spend the money. House Democrats says it’s restrictive because otherwise Trump will use the money to pay for more wall and more deportations. 

 
timschochet said:
The House just passed an emergency aid bill. Trump says he will veto because it’s too restrictive on how he will spend the money. House Democrats says it’s restrictive because otherwise Trump will use the money to pay for more wall and more deportations. 
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I think I mainly mean more people not in Congress. Why can't Falwell and Moore see this the same? Why can't normal citizens see this the same?

Are we just that tribal?

 
Joe Bryant said:
I imagine He is weeping when He sees this.
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Depends on what "this" is...

Lets assume we are all God's Children.  Do you think God drew up some magical lines in the sand and decided where people should be, and what lines they can or cannot cross?  Or do you think God thinks all "men" are created equal - and deserve to be treated the same by all other "men"?

The truth is many christians are hypocrites when it comes to how they treat fellow children of god.  This is nothing new - and I am sure if Jesus were to look down - he would weep. 

 
Joe Bryant said:
I think I mainly mean more people not in Congress. Why can't Falwell and Moore see this the same? Why can't normal citizens see this the same?

Are we just that tribal?
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No. I don’t think we are. 

But people are angry about illegal immigration. It’s an emotional issue and it’s been building for 30 years or more. 

 
Joe Bryant said:
I think I mainly mean more people not in Congress. Why can't Falwell and Moore see this the same? Why can't normal citizens see this the same?

Are we just that tribal?
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Yeah I think so.  Even though the teachings of Christianity are pretty clear, most Christians aren’t in it for the values or morality but for the tribal impact. Hence why Christians so often and so easily betray the teachings in mass numbers. Religion, politics, etc. aren’t about beliefs but about tribalism. Now of course this isn’t every religious person or every member of a political party but it does seem to be the majority.

 
Sinn Fein said:
Depends on what "this" is...
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I'm calling "this" what is happening at our borders. I'm calling "this" the same thing Moore is here: "The reports of the conditions for migrant children at the border should shock all of our consciences. Those created in the image of God should be treated with dignity and compassion, especially those seeking refuge from violence back home. We can do better than this.”

 
The more I read...$$$$ seems to be why.  Big donors run private prisons and are running these centers. 

 
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Who are you @drmoore ? Have you ever made a payroll? Have you ever built an organization of any type from scratch? What gives you authority to speak on any issue? I’m being serious. You’re nothing but an employee—a bureaucrat.”
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Wow, what a classless, thoughtless, irreverent thing to say. If he was CEO of a major corporation he'd probably be forced to resign.

Also......I have to ask......what has Jerry Falwell Junior built from scratch?

 
You're frustrated because you think religion should trump politics.  It hasn't done that since the church controlled kings.  

 
tonydead said:
You're frustrated because you think religion should trump politics.  It hasn't done that since the church controlled kings.  
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Actually religion has done a better job trumping politics since the church controlled kings and not before. 

And I would argue that you’re wrong anyhow. Two of this nation’s greatest social accomplishments- the abolition of slavery and the Civil Rights movement- were the direct result, not of politics, but of Christian morality. 

 
timschochet said:
Actually religion has done a better job trumping politics since the church controlled kings and not before. 

And I would argue that you’re wrong anyhow. Two of this nation’s greatest social accomplishments- the abolition of slavery and the Civil Rights movement- were the direct result, not of politics, but of Christian morality. 
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Actually they weren't.  Ending slavery was a by product of the civil war, not the reason for it, which was 100% political. But we've had this conversation before.  

 
Joe Bryant said:
I don't think anyone who looks at the current border situation objectively would disagree with the idea we can do better.

The question I've been asking is why we can't actually agree with that?

This recent exchange between two Christian leaders is fascinating to me. 

Why is Jerry Falwell so upset that Russell Moore spoke out against conditions facing migrant children?

One might make the case Falwell is under some type of blackmail or influence from Trump. But I see other people who I don't believe are being blackmailed by anyone make similar claims.

Are we that tribal where "our side" can do no wrong?

Does the "other" side have any role in this? 

I don't know. I just wish we could get right what we all objectively know needs to be right. 
Click to expand...
And Jesus said "what you do for the least of you, you do for me." So when you treat refugees, and even worse child refugees, like this you're treating Jesus like that.

If you are a Christian that's Christ telling you exactly in no uncertain terms what your position on these camps as run should be. There is no argument to be had. There is no requirement you make a payroll to see what is right and what is wrong. Christ directly speaks to those seeking entry into heaven here. And he made it clear that those that don't follow that edict won't like the result of their failure.

 
sho nuff said:
tonydead said:
The last thing they would want is a wall if there is big money in detention centers.  :lmao:
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You mean the wall Trump and Republicans didn’t do anything about when they had 2 years of total control?
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I was going to post this same thing. For 2 years of total GOP control, Trump didn't get the money he wanted for the wall. Didn't the Senate pass a budget 100-0 to avoid a government shutdown that contained zero for the wall? Only Trump wants a wall.

 
tonydead said:
Actually they weren't.  Ending slavery was a by product of the civil war, not the reason for it, which was 100% political. But we've had this conversation before.  
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The reason for the Civil War was the South was determined to protect slavery. It felt threatened by the abolitionist movement which was largely a Christian movement. 

 
timschochet said:
The reason for the Civil War was the South was determined to protect slavery. It felt threatened by the abolitionist movement which was largely a Christian movement.
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:lol: Lincoln was forced to act because the south controlled the ports, not because he felt pressured by some Christians. But really, Tim, stop with the thread hijack, think of the children 

 
tonydead said:
:lol: Lincoln was forced to act because the south controlled the ports, not because he felt pressured by some Christians. But really, Tim, stop with the thread hijack, think of the children 
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I’m not hijacking the thread. You stated that politics always trumps religious morality. I don’t agree with that argument. It’s actually central to the thread. And you’re wrong about the Civil War; your view is cynical and not accurate. 

 
tonydead said:
Funding for in contracts awarded. Minus 63 to be awarded in the next six months. 
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You’ve made this claim a few times. But according to whatever I can find, the only wall being built is some shoring up of existing fencing that was passed during the Obama years. Are you sure that this is what you’re referring to? 

 
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Summer Wheat said:
I am liberal and atheist. So I really do not care what Falwell, Jesus or Mohammad would do anywhere.
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I'm a devout Christian, and I don't really care why you agree with Jesus or if you care that you agree with Jesus. If you want to help the people in society who have the least, let's partner together against those who don't. 

 
tonydead said:
You're frustrated because you think religion should trump politics.  It hasn't done that since the church controlled kings.  
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You didn't quote anyone with this response so i assume you are talking to Joe. His frustration seems to be not politics vs religion rather politics vs common decency. 

It's rather obvious this lack of decency isn't unique to Christians. I think it's a pretty good question but ultimately unknowable for certain. Id we were able to force his supporters to answer honestly,  i think popular answers would include strong elements of tribalism as well as hate/ fear.   I also think lack of education on the issues and distorted sources of information would also play a signficant part. 

 
timschochet said:
I’m not hijacking the thread. You stated that politics always trumps religious morality. I don’t agree with that argument. It’s actually central to the thread. And you’re wrong about the Civil War; your view is cynical and not accurate. 
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Do you ever wonder how many of your hundreds of thousands of posts are spent arguing the same thing over and over?  You can go read your own thread where we've had this exact same discussion if you want.  

 
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The Commish said:
You didn't quote anyone with this response so i assume you are talking to Joe. His frustration seems to be not politics vs religion rather politics vs common decency. 

It's rather obvious this lack of decency isn't unique to Christians. I think it's a pretty good question but ultimately unknowable for certain. Id we were able to force his supporters to answer honestly,  i think popular answers would include strong elements of tribalism as well as hate/ fear.   I also think lack of education on the issues and distorted sources of information would also play a signficant part. 
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Wrong. People in this forum should understand better than anyone that politics today is largely absent of common decency, full of hate/fear, whatever neat adjectives like tribalism that you'd like to use.  This was made political by Trump and the Dems took the polar opposite. There is no "we".  Joe is trying  to rationalize why religion can't bring us together. I answered him.  

 
tonydead said:
Wrong. People in this forum should understand better than anyone that politics today is largely absent of common decency, full of hate/fear, whatever neat adjectives like tribalism that you'd like to use.  This was made political by Trump and the Dems took the polar opposite. There is no "we".  Joe is trying  to rationalize why religion can't bring us together. I answered him.  
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Oh. Ok

 
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tonydead said:
Wrong. People in this forum should understand better than anyone that politics today is largely absent of common decency, full of hate/fear, whatever neat adjectives like tribalism that you'd like to use.  This was made political by Trump and the Dems took the polar opposite. There is no "we".  Joe is trying  to rationalize why religion can't bring us together. I answered him.  
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If anyone is expecting religion to bring us together they're being pretty naive.    

 
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