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Opioid Overreaction (1 Viewer)

James Daulton

Footballguy
So we seemed to have transitioned from a society where pain pills were handed out like candy, to one where prescribing pain pills is now so scrutinized that people with real need are left to suffer.

My friend was in a freak accident the other day, got hit by a double truck tire that flew off the truck's axel.  He's lucky to be alive but as you can imagine he's pretty banged up with 15 stitches in his noggin, a concussion, and massive bruising on one side.  Was in the ED all night, given IV pain killers there, but sent home with nothing.  He's the classic case of someone who'll need meds for a couple of days afterwards and if he didn't have any left over from a prior surgery, he'd end up back in the ED if he couldn't get through to his doctor.

Sometimes this country is dumb. 

 
So we seemed to have transitioned from a society where pain pills were handed out like candy, to one where prescribing pain pills is now so scrutinized that people with real need are left to suffer.

My friend was in a freak accident the other day, got hit by a double truck tire that flew off the truck's axel.  He's lucky to be alive but as you can imagine he's pretty banged up with 15 stitches in his noggin, a concussion, and massive bruising on one side.  Was in the ED all night, given IV pain killers there, but sent home with nothing.  He's the classic case of someone who'll need meds for a couple of days afterwards and if he didn't have any left over from a prior surgery, he'd end up back in the ED if he couldn't get through to his doctor.

Sometimes this country is dumb. 
I tried to address this type of stuff in the other opioid thread and me and one other person were essentially met with "how-dare-you" or crickets.

 
I tried to address this type of stuff in the other opioid thread and me and one other person were essentially met with "how-dare-you" or crickets.
I must have missed that one.  It seriously pisses me off that we all have to suffer because a few people are irresponsible. 

 
I must have missed that one.  It seriously pisses me off that we all have to suffer because a few people are irresponsible. 
Yeah, I think after a while the thread was confused -- or thought I was wrong -- for talking about long term use of the -dones with acetomenophen as harmful to those with chronic pain. That was a bit far. I think the way you framed it is what we should be really concerned about.

 
So we seemed to have transitioned from a society where pain pills were handed out like candy, to one where prescribing pain pills is now so scrutinized that people with real need are left to suffer.

My friend was in a freak accident the other day, got hit by a double truck tire that flew off the truck's axel.  He's lucky to be alive but as you can imagine he's pretty banged up with 15 stitches in his noggin, a concussion, and massive bruising on one side.  Was in the ED all night, given IV pain killers there, but sent home with nothing.  He's the classic case of someone who'll need meds for a couple of days afterwards and if he didn't have any left over from a prior surgery, he'd end up back in the ED if he couldn't get through to his doctor.

Sometimes this country is dumb. 
Why was he sent home with nothing?  Even in states that have passed regulations regarding opioids, I wouldn’t think there would be any restrictions in prescribing meds for a few days post-discharge. 

 
Why was he sent home with nothing?  Even in states that have passed regulations regarding opioids, I wouldn’t think there would be any restrictions in prescribing meds for a few days post-discharge. 
No formal protocol restrictions but doctor's are so gun shy about prescribing that they now only give them in extreme cases.  Just hope you don't get a kidney stone or anything similar painful, you'll be told to take extra strength Tylenol. 

 
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Slowly and steadily going to one side of the curve then being yanked to the other is what this country does. Hopefully the next move is a shift towards somewhere in between and not another violent tug. 

 
What is the nature of his pain? Plenty of doctors are of the opinion that some pain is ok and treatable with ibuprofen. That has always been the case.

Also, please a link validating that doctors are "gun-shy" about prescribing pain meds to be people genuinely in need.

 
That’s weird. I don’t know anyone who hasn’t been prescribed pain meds when needed- even when they have said they didn’t think they needed them. 
Maybe this is a concussion protocol thing? 

I mean i have two bottles of painkillers i have never touched and said i didnt think i needed. 

 
I must have missed that one.  It seriously pisses me off that we all have to suffer because a few people are irresponsible. 
I agree there is an overreaction.

I feel like your "a few people are irresponsible" comment is equally off.

It is a serious problem,  it is quite common, and addiction doesn't care how responsible you are.

 
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I agree there is an overreaction.

I feel like your "a few people are irresponsible" comment is equally off.

It is a serious problem,  it is quite common, and addiction doesn't care how responsible you are.
How many tens of millions have used opiods without getting addicted?  But because a very small % do, we all have to suffer?

I work in healthcare, docs are extremely gun shy about prescribing them and in fact most hospitals have specific goals to reduce their use.  If you don't understand yet, just make sure that if you need them you make sure to advocate to yourself to your doc if he doesn't give them. Which I can almost guarantee he either won't or you'll get a small supply.

 
What is the nature of his pain? Plenty of doctors are of the opinion that some pain is ok and treatable with ibuprofen. That has always been the case.

Also, please a link validating that doctors are "gun-shy" about prescribing pain meds to be people genuinely in need.
He got hit by a double truck tire.  He has 15 staples in his head, a broken pinky, and a massive bruise all along one side of his torso and hip.  Of course he's in a lot of pain.

 
It is a concussion thing. Just looked it up.

They dont prescribe opioids because it can trick doctors that the concussion symptoms are gone. 
Makes sense. Also probably a dangerous thing to give a bottle of opioids to someone who isn’t in their right mind and may not be thinking clearly, able to remember accurately.

 
How many tens of millions have used opiods without getting addicted?  But because a very small % do, we all have to suffer?

I work in healthcare, docs are extremely gun shy about prescribing them and in fact most hospitals have specific goals to reduce their use.  If you don't understand yet, just make sure that if you need them you make sure to advocate to yourself to your doc if he doesn't give them. Which I can almost guarantee he either won't or you'll get a small supply.
I work in healthcare as well... largely with pain docs.  In fact I am a pharmaceutical wholesale distributor for some of these very drugs.  These clinics had daily occurrences of scenes being made by patients demanding refills early, breaking into the cabinets in the examination rooms trying to find more, etc etc.  It wasn't every patient, it wasn't some miniscule % either.

I was aware you were in healthcare as well.  Which is why I was surprised to see the "irresponsible" comment from you.

I would have thought that you understand the truth is somewhere in the middle, as usual.  It is not an "epidemic", but it isn't a small problem either.

 
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It is a concussion thing. Just looked it up.

They dont prescribe opioids because it can trick doctors that the concussion symptoms are gone. 
this.

but i live in a dying mill town that Section 8ed a lot of their empty houses and brought in a lot of druggies by doing so. we also have a single hosp that runs all the healthcare in town and they're making it hell for citizens to get pain relief now. i expect it to become a trend.

 
What do you mean by 'it' here? If you mean opioid use disorder originating from prescription opioids, that is not at all common.
The last data I read was 8-10%.  Misuse was like 25-30%... but people "misuse" their prescriptions and opioids aren't unique in that regard.

So again not an "epidemic" level problem, not a small problem.

 
The last data I read was 8-10%.  Misuse was like 25-30%... but people "misuse" their prescriptions and opioids aren't unique in that regard.

So again not an "epidemic" level problem, not a small problem.
From a comment submitted to the Public Docket for “Opioid Analgesic Drugs: Considerations for Benefit-Risk Assessment Framework - Guidance for Industry” by Dr. Red Lawhern:

It is now known that for existing opioid analgesics, today’s medical patient is rarely tomorrow’s non-medical abuser. [1]  Risk of opioid use disorder among actively managed medical patients is so low as to be difficult to measure. Indeed, large scale studies of post-surgical patients prescribed opioids for the first time reveal an incidence of Opioid Use Disorder (OUD) diagnoses of 0.6% or less for follow-up periods averaging 2.5 years; [2] this number is likely a maximum, given that many diagnoses are recorded by General Practitioners who lack significant training in evaluating patient behaviors said to define OUD. 

Incidence of protracted opioid prescribing for 13 weeks or longer in post-surgical patients is also known to be less than 1%.  Such prescribing may be more closely related to procedure failure than to properties of opioid analgesics per se.  Procedures in which “chronic” prescribing is most often observed are also among those in which procedure failures and emergence of chronic pain are highest (e.g. total knee replacement). [3]

It is also known that there is no reliable statistical relationship between rates of opioid prescribing by physicians versus rates of opioid overdose-related mortality from all sources (legal prescriptions, individual or corporate diversion of prescriptions, and illegal street drugs). Moreover, there has never been a relationship during the past 20 years. Published prescribing and demographics of the CDC directly contradict any such relationship. People over age 55 are prescribed opioids for pain two to three times more often than youth and young adults under age 25; however, age-adjusted overdose related mortality in seniors is the lowest of any age group and has been largely stable for 20 years, while mortality in youth and young adults has skyrocketed to levels now six times higher than in seniors. [4], [5]

References:

[1] Singer JA, Sullum JZ, Shatman ME,  Today’s nonmedical opioid users are not yesterday’s patients; implications of data indicating stable rates of nonmedical use and pain reliever use disorder, Journal of Pain Research 2019:12 617–620. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6369835/

[2] Brat GA, Agniel D, Beam A, et al. Postsurgical prescriptions for opioid naive patients and association with overdose and misuse: retrospective cohort study. BMJ. 2018;360:j5790. https://www.bmj.com/content/360/bmj.j5790

[3] Sun EC, Darnall BD, Baker LC, Mackey S. Incidence of and risk factors for chronic opioid use among opioid-naive patients in the postoperative period. JAMA Intern Med. 2016;176(9):1286-1293.

[4] Lawhern RA.”Over Prescribing Did Not Cause the Opioid Crisis.” Blog of Dr. Lynn Webster. Last updated April 5, 2019. http://www.lynnwebstermd.com/over-prescribing/.

[5] Lawhern RA, Tucker JA. Analysis of US Opioid Mortality and ER Visit Data. Last updated April 2019. Available at: http://face-facts.org/atip/analysis-of-us-opioid-mortality-and-er-visit-data-v15-april-2019/.
0.6%... less than 1%...

 
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From Opioid Abuse in Chronic Pain — Misconceptions and Mitigation Strategies:

There is lingering misunderstanding among some physicians about the important differences between physical dependence and addiction. The repeated administration of any opioid almost inevitably results in the development of tolerance and physical dependence... In contrast, addiction will occur in only a small percentage of patients exposed to opioids...

Unlike tolerance and physical dependence, addiction is not a predictable result of opioid prescribing. Addiction occurs in only a small percentage of persons who are exposed to opioids — even among those with preexisting vulnerabilities.
One of the two authors of this article is Dr. Nora Volkow, the Director of the National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA) at the National Institutes of Health (NIH) since May 2003. I would say this is pretty authoritative.

 
What is the nature of his pain? Plenty of doctors are of the opinion that some pain is ok and treatable with ibuprofen. That has always been the case.

Also, please a link validating that doctors are "gun-shy" about prescribing pain meds to be people genuinely in need.
Dont need a link.  They are gun shy.  I work with many doctors.  All gun shy per their own words.

 
Lawyers at this point are the ones putting the hesitation into doctors imho.
I disagree completely, unless you mean Government lawyers. See the article I linked above: Stop persecuting doctors for legitimately prescribing opioids for chronic pain

My wife has suffered from intractable chronic pain for more than 20 years. She has received pain treatment in multiple states. This is only anecdotal, but I believe it is representative:

  1. We lived in California from 2014-2018. One pain physician she saw briefly in California had his practice shut down by the DEA due to perceived "over-prescribing" which was baseless.
  2. Her primary pain physician in California had her visit a palliative care specialist in order to be designated a palliative care patient, in order to protect the pain practice from liability issues driven by DEA and state scrutiny, since California recognizes palliative care as an exception to normal pain regulation, along with cancer and hospice care. Unfortunately, not all states do recognize it.
  3. We lived in Virginia from 2003 to 2014 and again since 2018. Her primary pain physician here was driven to open his own practice in 2012 or so when the large group practice he was in decided to discontinue certain pain medication prescribing and pain treatments due to DEA and state scrutiny. He opened his own practice to provide care needed by his patients. Over the past 2 years, he has been forced by the Virginia Board of Medicine to taper all of his non-cancer patients to an arbitrary dosage level of 500 MME/day or less, despite the fact that there is no scientific basis for that or any limit. He has had state medical board investigators in his office repeatedly to review how he is treating so-called "high dosage" patients. If he refuses to comply with their direction, he is subject to losing his medical license.
The Government has created a terrible situation for pain physicians and pain patients and their families. They have done harm to millions of patients in pain, all while opioid overdose deaths hit a new all-time high every year, since opioid prescribing is not correlated to those deaths.

This situation has led the American Academy of Family Physicians (AAFP) and five other professional groups representing 560,000 physicians and medical students to call on politicians to “end political interference in the delivery of evidence based medicine.”

It has led the American Medical Association (AMA) to create AMA resolution 235 to, among other things:

  • Oppose “…blanket proscription against filling prescriptions for opioids that exceed numerical thresholds without taking into account the diagnosis and previous response to treatment for a patient and any clinical nuances that would support prescribing as falling within standards of good quality patient care…”
  • Advocate that "no entity should use morphine milligram equivalents (MME) thresholds as anything more than guidance, and physicians should not be subject to professional discipline, loss of board certification, loss of clinical privileges, criminal prosecution, civil liability, or other penalties or practice limitations solely for prescribing opioids at a quantitative level above the MME thresholds found in the CDC Guideline for Prescribing Opioids..."
I have reached the point where I wish the type of pain my wife experiences every day upon those in our Government who are doing this harm to her and the rest of the pain patient population. I have become convinced that is the only way any of them will actually come to understand what they are doing.

 
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I know some docs check a database to see if there are red flags with a pt. Not saying that's the case here. If I felt I needed some until the doc appt I would have asked. One thing I've found is you have to be your own pt advocate. 

 
I know some docs check a database to see if there are red flags with a pt. Not saying that's the case here. If I felt I needed some until the doc appt I would have asked. One thing I've found is you have to be your own pt advocate. 
that's a carryover from the last overcompensation in the early 90s. unfortunately, i had a cokehead wife dying of bone cancer at the time...

 
I will try to dig into this more.. but purely based off of my decade of first/secondhand experience, that number is way low, and I am betting it is due to a restricted definition of the term.
I posted this more than a year ago in the other thread - from New York Times Succumbs to The False Narrative Driving Opioid Policy-and Deaths:

In fact, numerous studies before and after that now “infamous” letter continue to demonstrate the low addictive potential of medically prescribed opioids. For example, 2010 and 2012 Cochrane systematic analyses show chronic non-cancer pain patients on opioids have a roughly 1 percent addiction rate, and a January 2018 study by researchers at Harvard and Johns Hopkins of more than 568,000 “opioid naïve” patients over 8 years who were given opioids for acute postoperative pain showed a total “misuse” rate of 0.6 percent. In a 2016 New England Journal of Medicine article, Dr. Nora Volkow, the Director of the National Institute on Drug Abuse, stated, “Addiction occurs in only a small percentage of patients exposed to opioids—even those with preexisting vulnerabilities.” Furthermore, researchers at the University of North Carolina followed 2.2 million North Carolina residents prescribed opioids in 2015 and found an overdose rate of just 0.022 percent—and 61 percent of those overdoses involved multiple other drugs.

 
I’d like to hear some experience of folks who’d recently had surgery.  I’ll bet they tell you the docs were stingy with the pain meds.  I get that there are issues out there but to make most of us suffer in pain unnecessarily isn’t fair.  And I’m telling you that most hospitals have initiatives to drastically reduce opiate prescriptions.

It won’t be cool if we or a loved one are someone who just has to deal with significant pain.

 
I just had surgery on my hand at the VA in San Francisco, on Thursday.  Was sent home with 20 5mg oxycodones..

 
My surgeons know I'm one to tough it out. Even after knee replacement I just popped a pill before PT. Yet they'd still give me more pills than needed. I have almost 2 bottles of hydrocodone accumulated over the past 4 years with 7 surgeries that at some point I'll have to take in to be properly disposed. 

 
My surgeons know I'm one to tough it out. Even after knee replacement I just popped a pill before PT. Yet they'd still give me more pills than needed. I have almost 2 bottles of hydrocodone accumulated over the past 4 years with 7 surgeries that at some point I'll have to take in to be properly disposed. 
H'ya doin', cutie!

ETA: btw, wanted to let you know that wasn't sexist - i talk the same way to @rockaction when he has drugs

 
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Yeah, I think after a while the thread was confused -- or thought I was wrong -- for talking about long term use of the -dones with acetomenophen as harmful to those with chronic pain. That was a bit far. I think the way you framed it is what we should be really concerned about.
Not sure if you’re referring to the back-and-forth between you and I, but there definitely were a lot of misinformed opinions in that thread.

As to the OP, the pendulum has swung the other way after opioids had been overprescribed for years. There are no regulations limiting the prescription of opioids for acute, severe pain, but some doctors have become gunshy to patients’ detriment.

It’s really a tough situation, as no objective way to measure pain exists, and drug abuse is still rampant.

 
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No formal protocol restrictions but doctor's are so gun shy about prescribing that they now only give them in extreme cases.  Just hope you don't get a kidney stone or anything similar painful, you'll be told to take extra strength Tylenol. 
Your point is valid, but opioids are not preferred for treating kidney stone, as they slow their passage.

 
Having a shoulder issue right now.  Didn't ask for anything but thought Doc would likely prescribe something.

Instead he recommended 800 mg of Advil, 4x a day, which I believe is the max.

Thats at least twice what I've been taking.  

Does seem like we may be moving to a new norm here.  Don't prescribe painkillers just recommend the max amount of ibuprofen

 
Having a shoulder issue right now.  Didn't ask for anything but thought Doc would likely prescribe something.

Instead he recommended 800 mg of Advil, 4x a day, which I believe is the max.

Thats at least twice what I've been taking.  

Does seem like we may be moving to a new norm here.  Don't prescribe painkillers just recommend the max amount of ibuprofen
Chronic non-cancer pain, especially musculoskeletal pain, is a target for opioid avoidance. 

 
Yeah the drug companies loved the studies that said opiates are not addictive. They pointed to them a lot whenever they were pushing them so hard a few years ago. I understand that they're official, peer-reviewed and stuff, but personally wouldn't want to be the dude who's making the argument that parrots the drug companies. I simply wouldn't want to add that to my reputation.

 
Having a shoulder issue right now.  Didn't ask for anything but thought Doc would likely prescribe something.

Instead he recommended 800 mg of Advil, 4x a day, which I believe is the max.

Thats at least twice what I've been taking.  

Does seem like we may be moving to a new norm here.  Don't prescribe painkillers just recommend the max amount of ibuprofen
A couple of years ago I had some pretty painful dental work done.  Dentist (a guy I went to after my dentist went all nutty and stopped taking most insurance) wrote me a script for 800mg of Tylenol or whatever.

This is literally the conversation we had.

Me:  No thanks

Dr: It’s for the pain

Me: Yeah, I know.  I don’t need a prescription for acetaminophen. I have a big bottle at home.

Dr:  But you’ll have to take 4 pills instead of 1.

Me:  I’m not a 4 year old. I can take pills like a big boy.  

Dr: Well, fine. But this is easier.

Me:  Hey, no offense but if you’re going to write me a script for pain pills include some codeine or something.  I’m a grown man with about 4 tampons in my mouth.  

Dr: Codeine and other opioids are pretty serious...

I now have another dentist

 

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