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Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Says Republicans are running "their little torture project". Agree?

Are Republicans intentionally running a "little torture project"?  

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Posted (edited)

This seemed pretty surprising to me:  

https://twitter.com/theintercept/status/1144623365187080193

"If they want to do that, that’s fine… but they should not be using a humanitarian crisis as a bargaining chip to make sure they pursue their little torture project,”

I think everyone would agree a humanitarian crisis shouldn't be used as a "bargaining chip". But do you think the Republicans are intentionally running a "little torture project"?

Edited by Joe Bryant

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She's a sensationalist IMO. She's younger and she knows how to use social media and trigger phrases to draw attention to herself where she can then expand on her thoughts once she has eyes.

As far as the torture project part specifically, I disagree.

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If this conversation goes anything like the "concentration camp" discussion, it will follow three stages:

1) She didn't mean "torture."  How dare you accuse of her saying that.

2) (A day later) Actually, the term "torture" derives from the lating tortus which means "to twist," so you see . . .

3) (Two days later) ICE is literally torturing children.

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2 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

If this conversation goes anything like the "concentration camp" discussion, it will follow three stages:

1) She didn't mean "torture."  How dare you accuse of her saying that.

2) (A day later) Actually, the term "torture" derives from the lating tortus which means "to twist," so you see . . .

3) (Two days later) ICE is literally torturing children.

I hope not. But you may be right. 

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I think what seems to get lost in this is how serious an accusation this is.

Accusing a group of people of intentionally pursuing a torture project is big. Obviously even bigger and worse if she's right. 

But if she's not right, that's no small thing. 

 

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I voted probably no.  From my limited understanding of the situation, it sounds like we didn't have the facilities to deal with the influx of asylum seekers that we're currently getting.  Obviously the solution is to increase our capacity to process these folks in a comfortable manner.  The Trump administration could have done better by diverting blankets, cots, hygiene products, etc. from other sources.  And congress can do better by providing funding for what is obviously badly needed infrastructure.  I don't think incendiary takes help anything.

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Just another example of how extremists  on both sides tend to believe that bad behavior on the other side is deliberate. It’s one of the great distinctions between the centrists and the extremists: we (the centrists) tend to believe that most bad behavior is not the result of intention but instead the result of unintended consequences of faulty idealism. 

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8 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

If this conversation goes anything like the "concentration camp" discussion, it will follow three stages:

1) She didn't mean "torture."  How dare you accuse of her saying that.

2) (A day later) Actually, the term "torture" derives from the lating tortus which means "to twist," so you see . . .

3) (Two days later) ICE is literally torturing children.

:lmao: yep

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4 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

I think what seems to get lost in this is how serious an accusation this is.

Accusing a group of people of intentionally pursuing a torture project is big. Obviously even bigger and worse if she's right. 

But if she's not right, that's no small thing. 

 

She runs at the mouth with no grasp of what she is saying. 

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There’s going to be a lot of conservatives here who will agree, correctly, that AOC is full of crap here. Yet when they are faced with a conservative who offers the exact same type of hyperbole about the other side (our President for example,) they are silent or they defend him. 

What we need are more people like Ivan K who are willing to condemn extremism regardless of which side it originates from. 

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8 minutes ago, timschochet said:

There’s going to be a lot of conservatives here who will agree, correctly, that AOC is full of crap here. Yet when they are faced with a conservative who offers the exact same type of hyperbole about the other side (our President for example,) they are silent or they defend him. 

 

Agreed - I think everyone agrees we don't want hypocrisy. 

So I'm better understanding you - In your opinion, what would be an equivalent statement from the other side to what AOC is saying here?

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8 minutes ago, timschochet said:

There’s going to be a lot of conservatives here who will agree, correctly, that AOC is full of crap here. Yet when they are faced with a conservative who offers the exact same type of hyperbole about the other side (our President for example,) they are silent or they defend him. 

What we need are more people like Ivan K who are willing to condemn extremism regardless of which side it originates from. 

Give us an example of something similar regarding conservatives and comments about torture.

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Trump is trying to put children in dangerous positions in order to scare off parents from trying to come here.  Isnt that obvious?

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1 minute ago, Daywalker said:

Isnt that obvious?

No.

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12 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

I voted probably no.  From my limited understanding of the situation, it sounds like we didn't have the facilities to deal with the influx of asylum seekers that we're currently getting.  Obviously the solution is to increase our capacity to process these folks in a comfortable manner.  The Trump administration could have done better by diverting blankets, cots, hygiene products, etc. from other sources.  And congress can do better by providing funding for what is obviously badly needed infrastructure.  I don't think incendiary takes help anything.

The Trump administration intentionally changed the asylum processing policy, knowing full well we didn’t have the facilities necessary to humanely house these families.  One of the reasons stated for strictly enforcing the policy and increasing child separations was to deter more asylum seekers from Central America. 

I vote yes.  This situation isn’t an accident and was easily foreseen.  And thankfully AOC is calling these horrors what they are, even though it makes white conservative makes uncomfortable.  It’s about damn time folks got uncomfortable.  What’s going on at our borders is inexcusable and a stain on our society.  

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43 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

I think what seems to get lost in this is how serious an accusation this is.

Accusing a group of people of intentionally pursuing a torture project is big. Obviously even bigger and worse if she's right. 

But if she's not right, that's no small thing. 

 

Well we are less than a week away from being told we are running concentration camps.   That makes the torture project seem like pretty small potatoes.   I used to think her rhetoric was as bad as Trump, but it is actually getting worse than Trump.   I would not thought that was possible. 

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4 minutes ago, Daywalker said:

Trump is trying to put children in dangerous positions in order to scare off parents from trying to come here.  Isnt that obvious?

Children in US custody who are doing nothing more than exercising their human right to seek asylum are DYING, and the outrage on the right is about AOC’s comments.  

Hey guys, if you don’t like being labeled heartless and immoral, maybe start worrying more about children’s lives and less about a freshman House member’s verbiage.  

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5 minutes ago, tommyGunZ said:

Children in US custody who are doing nothing more than exercising their human right to seek asylum are DYING, and the outrage on the right is about AOC’s comments.  

Hey guys, if you don’t like being labeled heartless and immoral, maybe start worrying more about children’s lives and less about a freshman House member’s verbiage.  

Hey...pay more attention to what people have said here about this. Stop with the crap that Republicans and posters here don’t care about these kids.

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America 2019, where we're arguing over if we have concentration camps and torturing kids. 

We should be better.

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2 minutes ago, John Blutarsky said:

Hey...pay more attention to what people have said here about this. Stop with the crap that Republicans and posters here don’t care about these kids.

Republicans and their voters, including several posters here, are the reason these kids are being held in these inhumane conditions.  You don’t get to create policies that lead to these situations, and then wash your hands and say you still care about these kids.  Take some responsibility for your actions.  

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45 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

Agreed - I think everyone agrees we don't want hypocrisy. 

So I'm better understanding you - In your opinion, what would be an equivalent statement from the other side to what AOC is saying here?

Sure. Here is Trump calling Democrats treasonous and unamerican: 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2018/02/05/trump-calls-democrats-un-american-and-treasonous.html

The penalty for treason is of course death. 

Then there is Eric Trump who, after somebody spit on him the other day, said that “this is today’s Democratic Party.” 

Thats just the tip of the iceberg. I could go on and on- Trump calling the media the “enemy of the people”, calling his political opponents criminals, etc etc. 

None of this is representative of how most conservatives think about liberals. AOC’s comments are not representative of how most liberals think about conservatives. These are the extreme and unfortunately they make the news. (And of course, AOC is not the leader of the Democratic Party and hopefully she never will be.) 

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1 hour ago, Trump Tight said:

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

The flip side of that is all the crooks in history who claimed simple ignorance.

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, tommyGunZ said:

Republicans and their voters, including several posters here, are the reason these kids are being held in these inhumane conditions.  You don’t get to create policies that lead to these situations, and then wash your hands and say you still care about these kids.  Take some responsibility for your actions.  

 

Just stop with crap like this. So some posters here are at fault for this?  Did you say anything about the deaths that happened when Obama was President?

https://americanmilitarynews.com/2019/06/us-mexico-border-deaths-lower-under-trump-than-obama-data-shows/

Edited by John Blutarsky
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Just now, jonessed said:

Sounds like he’s talking about MS-13 members.

He absolutely was.   

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9 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Sure. Here is Trump calling Democrats treasonous and unamerican: 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2018/02/05/trump-calls-democrats-un-american-and-treasonous.html

The penalty for treason is of course death. 

Then there is Eric Trump who, after somebody spit on him the other day, said that “this is today’s Democratic Party.” 

Thats just the tip of the iceberg. I could go on and on- Trump calling the media the “enemy of the people”, calling his political opponents criminals, etc etc. 

None of this is representative of how most conservatives think about liberals. AOC’s comments are not representative of how most liberals think about conservatives. These are the extreme and unfortunately they make the news. (And of course, AOC is not the leader of the Democratic Party and hopefully she never will be.) 

Are you saying AOC is as outrageous as Trump? 

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1 minute ago, jonessed said:

Sounds like he’s talking about MS-13 members.

Yes. It’s funny how every time he mentions undocumented immigrants, he just happens to bring up MS-13 members in the same sentence. 

But hey you want to defend him? Be my guest. I’m not defending AOC. You go right on ahead though. 

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If I'm driving 90mph after drinking for 12 hours maybe I didn't mean to kill anyone, but...

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Just now, Joe Bryant said:

Are you saying AOC is as outrageous as Trump? 

Yes. But her platform isn’t as large. 

Of course I’m more partial to AOC because I think she’s on the right side of things and Trump isn’t. But her use of hyperbole is just as bad IMO. 

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Just now, timschochet said:

Yes. But her platform isn’t as large. 

Of course I’m more partial to AOC because I think she’s on the right side of things and Trump isn’t. But her use of hyperbole is just as bad IMO. 

Ok. Thanks.

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2 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Yes. It’s funny how every time he mentions undocumented immigrants, he just happens to bring up MS-13 members in the same sentence. 

But hey you want to defend him? Be my guest. I’m not defending AOC. You go right on ahead though. 

:shrug:

I was just reading the article.  Seems pretty clear.

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3 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Yes. It’s funny how every time he mentions undocumented immigrants, he just happens to bring up MS-13 members in the same sentence. 

But hey you want to defend him? Be my guest. I’m not defending AOC. You go right on ahead though. 

It is not a defense.   But when you mischaracterize what Trump says, you lose credibility and it plays into Trump's hand. 

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Posted (edited)

  They are defending and endorsing (Trump supporters, Trump lawyers, some Republicans, Trump talking heads) how they are being run. They're running them. To that... they're all but admitting what it going on there is intentional. 

 

As to whether or not they're "torturing" children.....sure, a case could be made for that.

Edited by Thunderlips
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13 minutes ago, John Blutarsky said:

Just stop with crap like this. So some posters here are at fault for this?  Did you say anything about the deaths that happened when Obama was President?

https://americanmilitarynews.com/2019/06/us-mexico-border-deaths-lower-under-trump-than-obama-data-shows/

Why are you referencing “border deaths” in a discussion about children dying while in US custody?  They aren’t remotely the same thing.  

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Just absurd.  I’m more convinced than ever that AOC is actually a Republican plant to make the Democrats look ridiculous.  Change my mind. 

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2 minutes ago, tommyGunZ said:

 

Why are you referencing “border deaths” in a discussion about children dying while in US custody?  They aren’t remotely the same thing.  

The fact you try to blame posters here for deaths of children is beyond pathetic. 

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11 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

It is not a defense.   But when you mischaracterize what Trump says, you lose credibility and it plays into Trump's hand. 

I didn’t do that. And I can’t believe anyone at this point would challenge the fact that Donald Trump is a bigot when it comes to undocumented immigrants. It’s ridiculous that I even have to offer examples at all. 

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3 minutes ago, John Blutarsky said:

The fact you try to blame posters here for deaths of children is beyond pathetic. 

I’ll repeat the quesion:  Why are you referencing “border deaths” in a discussion about children dying while in US custody?  

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8 minutes ago, Widbil83 said:

Just absurd.  I’m more convinced than ever that AOC is actually a Republican plant to make the Democrats look ridiculous.  Change my mind. 

I didn't like her much at first...

I think she's a legit spark that the Democrats need.   To that, I think there will be a point during this cycle where she will need to take a back burner.....but not right now and not on this issue. 

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Just now, tommyGunZ said:

I’ll repeat the quesion:  Why are you referencing “border deaths” in a discussion about children dying while in US custody?  

Because no one showed any concern about deaths happening with illegal immigration under Obama. You reached a new low to blame posters here for what’s going on. 

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USA: You don't have any rights here

Activists allege widespread mistreatment of sick, hungry migrant children

Doctors Without Borders MSF alarmed by reports of horrific conditions for migrants

Quote

people have described being held in frigid conditions in CBP holding cells known as hieleras, or iceboxes, with the lights on at all times, and without adequate access to food, water, hygiene supplies, and medical care. Some suffer from chronic diseases, such as hypertension, HIV, or diabetes, but are often repatriated without medication. In addition, US authorities are deporting people to dangerous border cities late at night, putting 

 An Expert on Concentration Camps Says That's Exactly What the U.S. Is Running at the Border

Sexual Assault Of Detained Migrant Children Reported In The Thousands Since 2015

Asylum seekers are being sexually assaulted in U.S. detention

Trump administration cancels English classes, soccer, legal aid for unaccompanied child migrants in U.S. shelters

Trump orders officials to charge fees for asylum seekers fleeing persecution

 

No, I don't think she has been off the mark with her statements. I think a better question is how can Trump supporters can condone this?

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13 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I didn’t do that. And I can’t believe anyone at this point would challenge the fact that Donald Trump is a bigot when it comes to undocumented immigrants. It’s ridiculous that I even have to offer examples at all. 

You seem intent on debating whether Trump is a bigot when no one is debating that.   It was simply pointed Trump called M-13 members animals, not undocumented workers as you stated.   If you want to make the case Trump is a bigot, you should stick to accurate quotes.  

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, John Blutarsky said:

Show us where Trump supporters condone this. Stop with this crap.

If you support Trump, you support this. He denigrated and dehumanized these people for two years on the campaign trail and his entire presidency.  "I'm going to build a wall and Mexico is going pay for it". That was his main message. He's doing exactly what he said he would do. What he was elected to do. Look in the mirror, don't curse at me. 

Edited by Sheriff Bart
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8 minutes ago, Sheriff Bart said:

The problem with almost all of these comments is the same as AOC- they assume that it’s all deliberate. I get that some people think this but it’s hard to prove and unless and until somebody proves it, I don’t accept it.

As for Trump supporters, @John BlutarskyIs absolutely right. If you’re going to charge them with being for torture, you’d better offer proof. 

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Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, timschochet said:

The problem with almost all of these comments is the same as AOC- they assume that it’s all deliberate. I get that some people think this but it’s hard to prove and unless and until somebody proves it, I don’t accept it.

As for Trump supporters, @John BlutarskyIs absolutely right. If you’re going to charge them with being for torture, you’d better offer proof. 

Just like ignorance, carelessness isn't an excuse. 

ETA As for Blutarsky, see my reply above. 

Edited by Sheriff Bart

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