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NYT Op/Ed - Stop the Knee-Jerk Liberalism That Hurts Its Own Cause (1 Viewer)

Joe Bryant

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https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/29/opinion/sunday/liberalism-united-states.html?fbclid=IwAR3ZzR8WKWm4ftZ6s_X3YUU-atJgsbN3ZDq3h4Uh4nsFWXeDcz3uWWgn6z8

A liberal and thoughtful friend of mine shared this with me.

Thoughts?

We liberals need to watch our blind spots.

By Nicholas Kristof

My daughter and I were tossing a football back and forth while also flinging around arguments about free speech, sexual assault, youthful intolerance and paternal insensitivity.

We were discussing a Harvard law professor, Ronald Sullivan. He had been pushed out of his secondary job as head of Harvard College’s Winthrop House after he helped give Harvey Weinstein, accused of sexual assault, the legal representation every defendant is entitled to.

To me, as a progressive baby boomer, this was a violation of hard-won liberal values, a troubling example of a university monoculture nurturing liberal intolerance. Of course no professor should be penalized for accepting an unpopular client.

To my daughter, of course a house dean should not defend a notorious alleged rapist. As she saw it, any professor is welcome to represent any felon, but not while caring for undergraduates: How can a house leader support students traumatized by sexual assault when he is also defending someone accused of rape?

Our football face-off reflects a broader generation gap in America. Progressives of my era often revere the adage misattributed to Voltaire: “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” For young progressives, the priority is more about standing up to perceived racism, misogyny, Islamophobia and bigotry.

The rise of President Trump has amplified this generational clash and raised the fundamental question of how to live liberal values in an illiberal age.

It’s a difficult balance, requiring intellectual humility. Don’t tell my daughter, but she has a point: The well-being of sexual assault victims is clearly a value to embrace, even as we weigh it against the right of a law professor to take on a despised client.

Yet while I admire campus activism for its commitment to social justice, I also worry that it sometimes becomes infused with a prickly intolerance, embracing every kind of diversity except one: ideological diversity. Too often, we liberals embrace people who don’t look like us, but only if they think like us.

George Yancey, a black evangelical who is a sociology professor, once told me: “Outside of academia I faced more problems as a black. But inside academia I face more problems as a Christian, and it is not even close.”

For those of us who believe that liberalism should model inclusivity and tolerance, even in intolerant times, even to the exclusive and the intolerant, it was disappointing to see Cambridge University this year rescind a fellowship for Jordan Peterson, the Canadian best-selling author who says he will not use people’s preferred pronouns. Debate him — that’s how to win the argument — rather than trying to squelch him.

Liberals sometimes howl when this newspaper brings in a conservative columnist or publishes a sharply conservative Op-Ed. We progressives should have the intellectual curiosity to grapple with disagreeable views.

This column will appall many of my regular readers, and I recognize that all of this is easy for me to say as a straight white man. But the road to progress comes from winning the public debate — and if you want to win an argument, you have to allow the argument.

I fear that Trump has made it easy for liberal activists to demonize conservatives and evangelicals. People are complicated at every end of the spectrum, and it’s as wrong to stereotype conservatives or evangelicals as it is to stereotype someone on the basis of race, immigration status or sex.

Campus activists at their best are the nation’s conscience. But sometimes their passion, particularly in a liberal cocoon, becomes blinding.

That’s what happened at Oberlin College, long a center of activism, where students once protested the dining hall for cultural appropriation for offering poor sushi. Now Oberlin is in the news again because of a development in an episode that began the day after Trump was elected.

A black student shoplifted wine from a store called Gibson’s Bakery, and a white store clerk ran after him and attempted to grab him. The police report shows that when officers arrived, the clerk was on the ground getting punched and kicked by several students.

Seeing this incident through the lens of racial oppression, students denounced Gibson’s and distributed fliers claiming, “This is a RACIST establishment.” A university dean attended the protest, and the university responded to student fervor by suspending purchases from the bakery.

I understand that militancy emerges from deep frustration at inequities. But it turned out that the operative narrative here was not oppression but simply shoplifting. The student who stole the wine pleaded guilty to theft and acknowledged that there was no racial profiling involved.

Gibson’s this month won $44 million in actual and punitive damages from Oberlin, apparently reflecting the jury’s exasperation with the university for enabling a student mob.

At a time when there is so much actual injustice around us — third-rate schools, mass incarceration, immigrants dehumanized — it’s bizarre to see student activists inflamed by sushi or valorizing a shoplifter. This is kneejerk liberalism that backfires and damages its own cause.

As a liberal, I mostly write about conservative blind spots. But on the left as well as the right, we can get so caught up in our narratives that we lose perspective; nobody has a monopoly on truth. If Trump turns progressives into intolerant agents of incivility, then we have lost our souls.

As we head toward elections with monumental consequences,polarization will increase and mutual fear will surge. The challenge will be to stand up for our values — without betraying them.

The Times is committed to publishing a diversity of letters to the editor. We’d like to hear what you think about this or any of our articles. Here are some tips. And here’s our email:letters@nytimes.com.

Nicholas Kristof has been a columnist for The Times since 2001. He has won two Pulitzer Prizes, for his coverage of China and of the genocide in Darfur. You can sign up for his free, twice-weekly email newsletter and follow him on Instagram. @NickKristof • Facebook

 
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Nicholas Kristof is consistently sensible.
Big Kristof fan here.  Though I hate when he becomes a pawn in the “both sides” game.  We have lots of serious problems right now; Ron Sullivan’s employment at Harvard isn’t one of them. 

 
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Big Kristof fan here.  Though I hate when he becomes a pawn in the “both sides” game.  We have lots of serious problems right now; Ron Sullivan’s employment at Harvard isn’t one of them. 
He is not a pawn for the both sides game.  He makes several good points which you wish to casually dismiss instead of face them.  

 
Big Kristof fan here.  Though I hate when he becomes a pawn in the “both sides” game.  We have lots of serious problems right now; Ron Sullivan’s employment at Harvard isn’t one of them. 
It bums me out when people turn anything that isn't "it's all THEIR fault" into a negative. I'm not sure when trying to look at something objectively, and acknowledging my side may not have it perfect became a bad thing. Yet seems we some that love to play the "BOF SIDEZ" card any time that happens. I wish it would stop. 

 
It bums me out when people turn anything that isn't "it's all THEIR fault" into a negative. I'm not sure when trying to look at something objectively, and acknowledging my side may not have it perfect became a bad thing. Yet seems we some that love to play the "BOF SIDEZ" card any time that happens. I wish it would stop. 
:goodposting:

This is another element to your tribalism thread and a major reason i think it's important to measure or politicans ti a standard and not each other. Of course then the "both sides" complainers complain about purity tests blah blah. anything to avoid self reflection i suppose. 

 
I fear that Trump has made it easy for liberal activists to demonize conservatives and evangelicals. People are complicated at every end of the spectrum, and it’s as wrong to stereotype conservatives or evangelicals as it is to stereotype someone on the basis of race, immigration status or sex.
If you put yourself in the shoes of a liberal -- who probably doesn't have a lot of conservatives or evangelicals in their social orbit -- it's really hard to reconcile nice, charitable views of conservatives with their support for Trump.  There's nothing small-c conservative about Trump, and he's not even really a Republican.  How in the world did a guy like this win the GOP nomination, and why did so many Republicans fall in line behind him?  If you're a liberal, it's really hard not to arrive at the conclusion that Trump voters supported him because they actively support racism, sexual violence against women, and the destruction of small-d democratic norms.  After all, they chose to vote for the guy . . . 

You and I know that that isn't the case for all Trump supporters.  A lot of folks held their nose and voted for a guy they kind of hated because they really didn't like Clinton, they really wanted that supreme court seat, or for other instrumental reason.  But it's up to them to make that case.  It isn't unreasonable for liberals to "stereotype" conservatives by assuming they support the values of the person they voted for.  That's usually how this thing works. 

 
You and I know that that isn't the case for all Trump supporters.  A lot of folks held their nose and voted for a guy they kind of hated because they really didn't like Clinton, they really wanted that supreme court seat, or for other instrumental reason.  But it's up to them to make that case.  It isn't unreasonable for liberals to "stereotype" conservatives by assuming they support the values of the person they voted for.  That's usually how this thing works. 
There was an element of "he doesn't really mean that" prior to the election. And the reasons above are valid reasons for voting for him.... especially with the incomplete uncertain picture we had of him. None of that is valid moving forward though. We know exactly what he's about and he has a documented history and record. Where i struggle is with the continued support in ther face of everything we now know. They might not support the actions but they are willing to look the other way.

 
There was an element of "he doesn't really mean that" prior to the election. And the reasons above are valid reasons for voting for him.... especially with the incomplete uncertain picture we had of him. None of that is valid moving forward though. We know exactly what he's about and he has a documented history and record. Where i struggle is with the continued support in ther face of everything we now know. They might not support the actions but they are willing to look the other way.
It's unfortunate, but I guess it's just what I expect from people after decades of seeing excuses made for many politicians.  Many are always willing to overlook misdeeds, big and small, from politicians with whom they agree about certain issues, and it is not exclusive to one side.  Some of the Trump stuff is definitely dirty and worse than anything we've seen out of Bill Clinton or **** Cheney, but I think to many people, the "meet the new boss, same as the old boss" mentality applies, especially consider how unpopular politicians always seem to be as a whole (Congress hasn't had a 30% approval rating or higher in 10 years - link below); it's all about the issues they care about the most.  

https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/01/politics/poll-of-the-week-congress-approval-rating/index.html

 
I am very troubled right now as I always vote Dem, just do not like the road we are heading down.  I guess as I approach my mid 30s I am turning more moderate but it seems there are no moderates anymore on either side.

 
It's unfortunate, but I guess it's just what I expect from people after decades of seeing excuses made for many politicians.  Many are always willing to overlook misdeeds, big and small, from politicians with whom they agree about certain issues, and it is not exclusive to one side.  Some of the Trump stuff is definitely dirty and worse than anything we've seen out of Bill Clinton or **** Cheney, but I think to many people, the "meet the new boss, same as the old boss" mentality applies, especially consider how unpopular politicians always seem to be as a whole (Congress hasn't had a 30% approval rating or higher in 10 years - link below); it's all about the issues they care about the most.  

https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/01/politics/poll-of-the-week-congress-approval-rating/index.html
Sure people can convince themselves to ignore. That's their choice. Don't get mad or upset when the mirror is placed back in front of your face and you're told your votes help get these thing to happen. Don't hey mad when it's pointed out that these things you ranked as less important than moral conviction. 

 
There is no mainstream voice for moderates. There are plenty of us around. 
Amen to that. I do not subscribe to either major party (I agree with the Democrats about certain issues, and I agree with the GOP about certain issues), and would love to see a legit mainstream voice for moderates who had a real chance to win a presidential election. Dare to dream...

 
The Commish said:
All?  No.... not in this context
In this exact context of course not, but nothing exists in this exact context so that's a terrible argument.

But we all make choices every day of our lives that are better for ourselves personally that are to the detriment of somebody else or society. Maybe due to ignorance, maybe due to being a jackhole, or maybe due to the fact that a higher % of society accepts said behavior as OK.

Doesn't change the fact that every single day we all make these choices on many levels. 

 
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But we all make choices every day of our lives that are better for ourselves personally that are to the detriment of somebody else or society. Maybe due to ignorance, maybe due to being a jackhole, or maybe due to the fact that a higher % of society accepts said behavior as OK.

Doesn't change the fact that every single day we all make these choices on many levels. 
and i don't suggest this doesn't happen. I am simply saying that there is a package deal here. You don't get to pick and choose to try and maintain some sort of morality. Whether one likes it'd or not,  their votes are, at minimum,  enabling that behavior.  I'm not following how or why you are equating this tip individual choices we make each day that are self serving

 
It seems the far-left and even some of the more mainstream left have adopted a stance where the appearance of being racist/sexist/homophobe is enough to condemn a person or at least a white person.   The left is losing respect for equal rights.     

 
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Summer Wheat said:
I am very troubled right now as I always vote Dem, just do not like the road we are heading down.  I guess as I approach my mid 30s I am turning more moderate but it seems there are no moderates anymore on either side.
Yep.  I'm mid 40's so you're about 10 years behind me.  I went from voting for Clinton while in college in 1992 to now falling mostly on the right.  I don't think I've changed my views over that time.  Really the only marked change I can think of is I've changed my views to the left on gay marriage.  I voted for Clinton, Gore, even Kerry.  But those days appear to have left me behind.  I think as a country we've moved to the left in our views so if you are relatively where you were, you are naturally further right than you used to be.  That being said, if you are a moderate you fall into the "which side can I live with my disagreements with the most" category.

 
It seems the far-left and even some of the more mainstream left have adopted a stance where the appearance of being racist/sexist/homophobe is enough to condemn a person or at least a white person.   The left is losing respect for equal rights.     
Just look at poor Joe Biden.  Every day CNN does a new hit job/negative piece on him on their website along these lines.  It's pretty astounding whether you agree with Joe Biden's politics or not that he would be questioned for being a racist, etc.  Biden is being eaten by his own party.

 
It seems the far-left and even some of the more mainstream left have adopted a stance where the appearance of being racist/sexist/homophobe is enough to condemn a person or at least a white person.   The left is losing respect for equal rights.     
What does this mean exactly?  Is this some wordy version of "you have to look at his heart" ?  :confused:  

 
What does this mean exactly?  Is this some wordy version of "you have to look at his heart" ?  :confused:  
It means exactly what it says.  White guy is chasing a black guy, you beat the crap out of the white dude.  Who cares if he was chasing a shoplifter.  White lawyer defends a guy accused of rape, we fire the white guy.  Who cares about the defendants rights.  White guy nominated to Supreme Court, vote against him because of some sexual assault claim.  Who cares if it is a 35 plus year old accusation which she never told a soul about for over 30 years and not a single person can verify any part of the story.   Just the appearance of bigotry is enough to convict and condemn a white guy.  Even Joe Biden is seeing this.  The radical left does not want to support a white guy and will condemn him every chance they get.  There is zero regard for due-process, there is the presumption of guilt for the white guy.  

 
It means exactly what it says.  White guy is chasing a black guy, you beat the crap out of the white dude.  Who cares if he was chasing a shoplifter.  White lawyer defends a guy accused of rape, we fire the white guy.  Who cares about the defendants rights.  White guy nominated to Supreme Court, vote against him because of some sexual assault claim.  Who cares if it is a 35 plus year old accusation which she never told a soul about for over 30 years and not a single person can verify any part of the story.   Just the appearance of bigotry is enough to convict and condemn a white guy.  Even Joe Biden is seeing this.  The radical left does not want to support a white guy and will condemn him every chance they get.  There is zero regard for due-process, there is the presumption of guilt for the white guy.  
I really hope this was done in jest and you were completely aware of the irony you left dripping off the post.  Do you really want to go down a path where "white" is substituted with "black" and "liberal left" is substituted with "extreme right" and the exact same thing is true and considered mainstream in the country as we type these posts?  If so, I'll simply point you back to the systemic racism thread you bailed on after I gave you the info you were asking for and then promptly dropped the discussion.  Everything I have to say about this subject is in there.

 
I really hope this was done in jest and you were completely aware of the irony you left dripping off the post.  Do you really want to go down a path where "white" is substituted with "black" and "liberal left" is substituted with "extreme right" and the exact same thing is true and considered mainstream in the country as we type these posts?  If so, I'll simply point you back to the systemic racism thread you bailed on after I gave you the info you were asking for and then promptly dropped the discussion.  Everything I have to say about this subject is in there.
Whatever dude.  No jest at all.  You are so full of crap with the systematic racism and lack of awareness of how the left treats people differently based on race, sex, religion.  

 
Ron Sullivan getting pushed out of hi second job is an absolute disgrace to what used to be American values.  Everybody who is accused of a crime is entitled to competent legal counsel.  The job the legal counsel is to advocate for his client.  The adversarial legal system is fundamental to justice.  To prejudge an accused and then apply monetary pressure to discourage competent legal counsel from advocating for certain clients is as fundamentally unamerican as it gets.

 
We were discussing a Harvard law professor, Ronald Sullivan. He had been pushed out of his secondary job as head of Harvard College’s Winthrop House after he helped give Harvey Weinstein, accused of sexual assault, the legal representation every defendant is entitled to.

To me, as a progressive baby boomer, this was a violation of hard-won liberal values, a troubling example of a university monoculture nurturing liberal intolerance. Of course no professor should be penalized for accepting an unpopular client.

To my daughter, of course a house dean should not defend a notorious alleged rapist. As she saw it, any professor is welcome to represent any felon, but not while caring for undergraduates: How can a house leader support students traumatized by sexual assault when he is also defending someone accused of rape?

Our football face-off reflects a broader generation gap in America. Progressives of my era often revere the adage misattributed to Voltaire: “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” For young progressives, the priority is more about standing up to perceived racism, misogyny, Islamophobia and bigotry.

 The rise of President Trump has amplified this generational clash and raised the fundamental question of how to live liberal values in an ***illiberal age.
Kristoff is saying the US is becoming illiberal, do you know what that means? Hint, it’s not the opposite of “liberal” politics but something else.

I’ve read about Prof. Sullivan and I do feel he was treated unjustly.

Yet I have to say I’m getting worn down. In the other thread you’ve thrown out a comment by Cortez and the problem is moderates and conservatives getting jerked around by stories like this. @tommyGunZ is right, he just is, there are huge, nation defining issues we are struggling with, and that we are largely joined on, and yet ‘people’ - like gosh I don’t know with the Cortez story - just keep poking and prodding and instigating others in society with these stories meant to do nothing but cause division.

 
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I really hope this was done in jest and you were completely aware of the irony you left dripping off the post.  Do you really want to go down a path where "white" is substituted with "black" and "liberal left" is substituted with "extreme right" and the exact same thing is true and considered mainstream in the country as we type these posts?  If so, I'll simply point you back to the systemic racism thread you bailed on after I gave you the info you were asking for and then promptly dropped the discussion.  Everything I have to say about this subject is in there.
Whatever dude.  No jest at all.  You are so full of crap with the systematic racism and lack of awareness of how the left treats people differently based on race, sex, religion.
I'll take this as a "no".  I'm so far out of touch because I acknowledge they do it too?  Seems odd, but ok.  "Do as I say and not as I do" isn't a position I take all that seriously, so when one gets up on a soapbox about how the other "side" is doing exactly what their "side" has been doing for generations, it's tough to take seriously.  No need to derail this thread, this conversation is awaiting your reply (and has been for a few months now) in the other thread.

 
Kristoff is saying the US is becoming illiberal, do you know what that means? Hint, it’s not the opposite of “liberal” politics but something else.

I’ve read about Prof. Sullivan and I do feel he was treated unjustly.

Yet I have to say I’m getting worn down. In the other thread you’ve thrown out a comment by Cortez and the problem is moderates and conservatives getting jerked around by stories like this. @tommyGunZ is right, he just is, there are huge, nation defining issues we are struggling with, and that we are largely joined on, and yet ‘people’ - like gosh I don’t know with the Cortez story - just keep poking and prodding and instigating others in society with these stories meant to do nothing but cause division.
Tread lightly my friend.  As best as I can tell, @Joe Bryant suspended me for the post you're agreeing with.  The only other thread I was active in on Saturday (when my account was suspended) was the "AOC torture" thread, in which I made 4-5 noncontroversial posts (all still posted on page 1 of the thread) about how Republicans and their voters were responsible for the policies the Trump administration enacted leading to the current crisis at US holding camps.  I can't fathom that suggesting Trump supporters are ultimately responsible for Trump's policies would be ban worthy, so I assume it's my post in this thread opining that Kristof's piece about Sullivan was Kristof engaging in "both sidesism" that earned me a timeout.

:shrug:

 
:confused:

Looks like you got suspended for the day by the moderator for "Readin’ And learnin’ is for DemoRats.  #Trump4Ever"

We've asked people to be way cooler in how they post here. Thanks for helping us. 
Thanks for the feedback Joe.  I'll adjust my satire meter and be better.   👍

 
It means exactly what it says.  White guy is chasing a black guy, you beat the crap out of the white dude.  Who cares if he was chasing a shoplifter.  White lawyer defends a guy accused of rape, we fire the white guy.  Who cares about the defendants rights.  White guy nominated to Supreme Court, vote against him because of some sexual assault claim.  Who cares if it is a 35 plus year old accusation which she never told a soul about for over 30 years and not a single person can verify any part of the story.   Just the appearance of bigotry is enough to convict and condemn a white guy.  Even Joe Biden is seeing this.  The radical left does not want to support a white guy and will condemn him every chance they get.  There is zero regard for due-process, there is the presumption of guilt for the white guy.  
How you manage to accuse the left of bigotry in regard to the Kavanaugh hearings is pretty amazing.    We're all aware that you don't believe the accuser and think it was a political hit job, but because he's white?   

Bury your head in sand all you want about institutional racism, but trying to play the race card for Kavanaugh is just ridiculous.

 
Tread lightly my friend.  As best as I can tell, @Joe Bryant suspended me for the post you're agreeing with.  The only other thread I was active in on Saturday (when my account was suspended) was the "AOC torture" thread, in which I made 4-5 noncontroversial posts (all still posted on page 1 of the thread) about how Republicans and their voters were responsible for the policies the Trump administration enacted leading to the current crisis at US holding camps.  I can't fathom that suggesting Trump supporters are ultimately responsible for Trump's policies would be ban worthy, so I assume it's my post in this thread opining that Kristof's piece about Sullivan was Kristof engaging in "both sidesism" that earned me a timeout.

:shrug:
I thought the Oberlin College incident Kristof included was the best illustration of the point he's trying to make, and there is a problem with things like that from liberals. I think at some point things cross over from a genuine interest in equality and justice to a "look at how ideologically pure I am" thing that happens - it's less about helping others and more about validating yourself. Which is definitely a part of the college experience in many ways. But that particular mindset in relation to equality/justice has life outside college campuses as well. I think at times the "super liberals" lose sight of doing the right thing and get wrapped up in justifying their world views, with hypocritical results at times.

That incident gets to @jon_mx's point a bit better than the Kavanaugh thing. At Oberlin, a clerk saw a thief and tried to run him down, observers saw a white person chasing a black person and could not pause long enough to consider whether there could be a valid reason for that beyond racial influences. Who's the racist there?

 
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IvanKaramazov said:
If you put yourself in the shoes of a liberal -- who probably doesn't have a lot of conservatives or evangelicals in their social orbit -- it's really hard to reconcile nice, charitable views of conservatives with their support for Trump.  There's nothing small-c conservative about Trump, and he's not even really a Republican.  How in the world did a guy like this win the GOP nomination, and why did so many Republicans fall in line behind him?  If you're a liberal, it's really hard not to arrive at the conclusion that Trump voters supported him because they actively support racism, sexual violence against women, and the destruction of small-d democratic norms.  After all, they chose to vote for the guy . . . 

You and I know that that isn't the case for all Trump supporters.  A lot of folks held their nose and voted for a guy they kind of hated because they really didn't like Clinton, they really wanted that supreme court seat, or for other instrumental reason.  But it's up to them to make that case.  It isn't unreasonable for liberals to "stereotype" conservatives by assuming they support the values of the person they voted for.  That's usually how this thing works. 
What did they want that Supreme Court seat for exactly? To take away rights from women and minorities? To ensure that for just a bit longer conservative Christian white men held on to their power? Sure seems like that is the case for an awful lot of them.

When you see a picture of a man lying face down in a river holding his baby daughter and they died trying to find a better life but you think well they had it coming why do I owe you any benefit of the doubt? And If you dont think that but continue to "hold your nose" what right do you have to be mad when you get hit with that brush? 

 
As to the article he makes some good points but that daughter of his is going to be schooling him soon.

 

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