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NCCommish

What will it take

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For working class and poor whites to figure out they have more in common with working class or poor people no matter the color of their skin than they do with rich white folks? As a voting bloc if these groups could get past the wedges they would run things. They would command the policy discussion because they still have one avenue if power left,  the ballot box. 

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3 minutes ago, NCCommish said:

For working class and poor whites to figure out they have more in common with working class or poor people no matter the color of their skin than they do with rich white folks? As a voting bloc if these groups could get past the wedges they would run things. They would command the policy discussion because they still have one avenue if power left,  the ballot box. 

No idea, but your question has been asked by liberals and progressives for about two hundred years now.

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Just now, timschochet said:

No idea, but your question has been asked by liberals and progressives for about two hundred years now.

Oh, please.  Those liberal and progressive candidates are the same rich white elites.

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1 minute ago, Jayrod said:

Oh, please.  Those liberal and progressive candidates are the same rich white elites.

I never said anything about candidates. I wrote that it's a question that has been raised by liberals and progressives.

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Just now, Jayrod said:

Oh, please.  Those liberal and progressive candidates are the same rich white elites.

But I'm not. And I just dont get it. Why we allow stupid racist wedges to hurt us this way is beyond understanding  

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6 minutes ago, NCCommish said:

But I'm not. And I just dont get it. Why we allow stupid racist wedges to hurt us this way is beyond understanding  

Not sure but I would think the same reason most blacks will always vote for black candidates, hispanic for hispanic and down the line.

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32 minutes ago, timschochet said:

No idea, but your question has been asked by liberals and progressives for about two hundred years now.

And what about a Conservative answer which would be to stop telling these people how fortunate they are to have white privilege? When we talk about minorities being poor, we blame the system. When whites are poor, well, I'm not sure what we say. Do we even really talk about it?

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Of course the liberal-think is that the only answer is they must be racist.

However, the correct answer is they know that big government is not the answer.   Free health care, free education, guaranteed income, etc. is a social utopia that will eventually fail.   Government does not produce anything.  People have to work and produce so that there are enough good and services.   As evil, scary and cold-hearted as big corporations are, big government will become far far worse.  Until liberals grasps that not everyone believes in their socialist utopia fantasies, they will never appeal to people who understand that like corporations, government must be limited and kept in check.  But go back to it's all racism and other derogatory beliefs.  

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4 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

Of course the liberal-think is that the only answer is they must be racist.

However, the correct answer is they know that big government is not the answer.   Free health care, free education, guaranteed income, etc. is a social utopia that will eventually fail.   Government does not produce anything.  People have to work and produce so that there are enough good and services.   As evil, scary and cold-hearted as big corporations are, big government will become far far worse.  Until liberals grasps that not everyone believes in their socialist utopia fantasies, they will never appeal to people who understand that like corporations, government must be limited and kept in check.  But go back to it's all racism and other derogatory beliefs.  

Liberals are not socialists; they don't believe in utopia fantasies.

Liberals believe that, while capitalism is the best economic system, it requires a safety net in order to protect basic rights.

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What issues are we talking about? Where do the races differ?

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1 hour ago, NCCommish said:

For working class and poor whites to figure out they have more in common with working class or poor people no matter the color of their skin than they do with rich white folks? As a voting bloc if these groups could get past the wedges they would run things. They would command the policy discussion because they still have one avenue if power left,  the ballot box. 

Probably the elimination of Facebook from the equation. 

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1 minute ago, Dondante said:

Probably the elimination of Facebook from the equation. 

I refuse to Facebook. 

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

Liberals are not socialists; they don't believe in utopia fantasies.

Liberals believe that, while capitalism is the best economic system, it requires a safety net in order to protect basic rights.

I applaud you for at least not taking the 'they are all racist route.'.  All liberals may not be all out socialists, but they all do push for more bigger government, which in whole leads to socialism.   Government is as big as is needed.  If you want to change what it does or make it more efficient, fine.  But to take more and spend more.  Sorry, enough is enough.  Figure out how to spend your 40 percent better.  

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1 hour ago, NCCommish said:

For working class and poor whites to figure out they have more in common with working class or poor people no matter the color of their skin than they do with rich white folks? As a voting bloc if these groups could get past the wedges they would run things. They would command the policy discussion because they still have one avenue if power left,  the ballot box. 

Can you unpack that more specifically with race?

What do you feel is being limited now?

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Just now, NCCommish said:

I refuse to Facebook. 

I'm sure you're not part of the problem. Well, who can ever be sure, really. All of the boomers I know get 99% of their talking points from Facebook and fox news. All the boomers I know are white or married to a wealthy white person and all of them praise trump with an evangelical bent. I don't think they or their convictions are going away with these two "institutions" staying relevant. 

All of the non-boomer trump fans I know are either racists, closet racists or heavily involved with the financial sector (two of the three). 

Everyone else I know has a place in service, social programs or education. None of the latter participate in either Facebook or fox news. 

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1 minute ago, jon_mx said:

I applaud you for at least not taking the 'they are all racist route.'.  All liberals may not be all out socialists, but they all do push for more bigger government, which in whole leads to socialism.   Government is as big as is needed.  If you want to change what it does or make it more efficient, fine.  But to take more and spend more.  Sorry, enough is enough.  Figure out how to spend your 40 percent better.  

Again, the bolded is simply not true.

Is government as big as needed? I would have agreed with this years ago. But here is my problem with that idea in 2019: we have an existential crisis on our hands: climate change. There is no way to address without big government and without rethinking everything we do. I believe climate change takes all of the old arguments (your conservative argument for smaller government, NC Commish's progressive argument for larger government) and makes them out of date and invalid. We need to reassess everything we believe, everything we've been taught- they don't apply anymore.

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Just now, Joe Bryant said:

Can you unpack that more specifically with race?

What do you feel is being limited now?

It seems like driving wedges between races has been very successful in dampening their political power. Especially when class is far more defining of differences between people. 

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1 hour ago, NCCommish said:

For working class and poor whites to figure out they have more in common with working class or poor people no matter the color of their skin than they do with rich white folks? As a voting bloc if these groups could get past the wedges they would run things. They would command the policy discussion because they still have one avenue if power left,  the ballot box. 

Outstanding question. Not sure and it's one of life's great mystery's.  Poor/middle class people have always been suckered in to the belief that a born wealthy, every privilege, silver spoon in mouth person some how represents them and is a "man of the people" (for clarity sake I'm not just referring to Trump, there have been countless throughout history).   

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1 minute ago, Dondante said:

I'm sure you're not part of the problem. Well, who can ever be sure, really. All of the boomers I know get 99% of their talking points from Facebook and fox news. All the boomers I know are white or married to a wealthy white person and all of them praise trump with an evangelical bent. I don't think they or their convictions are going away with these two "institutions" staying relevant. 

All of the non-boomer trump fans I know are either racists, closet racists or heavily involved with the financial sector (two of the three). 

Everyone else I know has a place in service, social programs or education. None of the latter participate in either Facebook or fox news. 

And before Facebook they got their talking points from Pat Buchanan. And before that, Spiro Agnew.

Right wing populism has always been around in modern times.

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1 hour ago, Jayrod said:

Oh, please.  Those liberal and progressive candidates are the same rich white elites.

You think the agendas the 2 parties are trying to achieve are the same?

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14 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Again, the bolded is simply not true.

Is government as big as needed? I would have agreed with this years ago. But here is my problem with that idea in 2019: we have an existential crisis on our hands: climate change. There is no way to address without big government and without rethinking everything we do. I believe climate change takes all of the old arguments (your conservative argument for smaller government, NC Commish's progressive argument for larger government) and makes them out of date and invalid. We need to reassess everything we believe, everything we've been taught- they don't apply anymore.

its true if you constantly redefine the word socialism, which will happen million times a day for the next 15 months.

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19 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Again, the bolded is simply not true.

Is government as big as needed? I would have agreed with this years ago. But here is my problem with that idea in 2019: we have an existential crisis on our hands: climate change. There is no way to address without big government and without rethinking everything we do. I believe climate change takes all of the old arguments (your conservative argument for smaller government, NC Commish's progressive argument for larger government) and makes them out of date and invalid. We need to reassess everything we believe, everything we've been taught- they don't apply anymore.

The green new deal has a larger carbon footprint than the status quo. 

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1 hour ago, NCCommish said:

For working class and poor whites to figure out they have more in common with working class or poor people no matter the color of their skin than they do with rich white folks? As a voting bloc if these groups could get past the wedges they would run things. They would command the policy discussion because they still have one avenue if power left,  the ballot box. 

I believe are becoming more segregated in our voting by race, not less.  I think I read a stat that Mitt Romney won a larger share of the white vote than Ronald Reagan did during his landslide in 1984.  Obviously the country's demographics have shifted.  While I liked Mitt Romney, he was not as a whole viewed anywhere near the politician that Reagan was.  It makes sense as divisive as things are this will continue until a rough 50/50 equilibrium can't continue by those shifts.

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24 minutes ago, NCCommish said:

It seems like driving wedges between races has been very successful in dampening their political power. Especially when class is far more defining of differences between people. 

I hear ya. For the life of me I cannot understand why my 61 year old older brother votes Republican. He’s a long haul trucker, MI to CA / CA to MI. Has emphysema, carries oxygen bottles, takes longer routes to avoid altitude. Loves Trump, believes in trickle down tax cuts. 

:wall: 

Hard to believe he wasn’t adopted.

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15 minutes ago, The General said:

You think the agendas the 2 parties are trying to achieve are the same?

Exactly.  Obama is elected, and the Democrats decide to spend their political capital on a program drastically lowering the uninsured rate, providing a huge boost to many on the bottom rung of the social ladder.  Trump wins, and the biggest bill passed is a tax cut that disproportionately benefits corporations and the top 1-5% of wealthy Americans.  

Which is why it’s so frustrating watching poor white Americans vote against their economic interests because of the social wedged NCC described in the OP. 

 

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10 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

The green new deal has a larger carbon footprint than the status quo. 

I'm very skeptical of this statement, but in any case it's not relevant to the conversation at hand. 

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7 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I'm very skeptical of this statement, but in any case it's not relevant to the conversation at hand. 

It is, because of actually proposing solutions to reducing carbon footprint, the proposal calls for massive carbon producing efforts in trillions and trilliins of dollars in roads and bridges and high-speed rails and upgrading existing homes and businesses.  So why don't people support liberals, because their solutions do nothing but set us back.   Our economy is relatively fixed.  Every dollar and man spending time and energy and resources on those projects means less is spent on doing actual Green energy projects.  

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1 minute ago, jon_mx said:

It is, because of actually proposing solutions to reducing carbon footprint, the proposal calls for massive carbon producing efforts in trillions and trilliins of dollars in roads and bridges and high-speed rails and upgrading existing homes and businesses.  So why don't people support liberals, because their solutions do nothing but set us back.   Our economy is relatively fixed.  Every dollar and man spending time and energy and resources on those projects means less is spent on doing actual Green energy projects.  

Is this a serious post?  

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3 minutes ago, tommyGunZ said:

Is this a serious post?  

Did you read the new green deal?   I guess not, because it is damn serious and damn accurate.  

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Posted (edited)

I can't fathom the level of intellectual dishonesty it takes to level such a claim.  I understand my conservative friends who don't think the investment in a green new deal is worth it, since the rest of the world is not bound by our internal emission reduction standards.  But I've never heard anyone suggest that the GND actually INCREASES emissions long term.

Just mind numbingly obtuse.  Wow.  

Edited by tommyGunZ

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1 hour ago, NCCommish said:

It seems like driving wedges between races has been very successful in dampening their political power. Especially when class is far more defining of differences between people. 

The 60 years the Democrats have spent driving wedges created the backlash that gave us Trump.   The race wedge politics is ruining this country.   I can't stand Trump, but the race-baiting from the left is hateful, relentless and revolting.  

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How about stop supporting the party that supports open borders that allow low skilled labor in that suppress wages.  Oh wait that’s why trump won.   And stop with all the white/black identity politics. People are sick of it.  

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How exactly is the message of telling poor white people that they are a product of white previledge suppose to work?  Wonder why that message is not reasonating.  

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16 minutes ago, boots11234 said:

How about stop supporting the party that supports open borders that allow low skilled labor in that suppress wages.   

Why are we allowing corporations to hire them?  Why aren't they a target in all of this?

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it will take a solar flare that knocks out communications. the condition of the working poor is down to marketing - this is what you can have, this is what you should want, there are people who were like you once who are now living the dream, here are video entertainments & diversions to keep you from hitting the streets and beheading kings like po'folk useta do.

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2 hours ago, jon_mx said:

The 60 years the Democrats have spent driving wedges created the backlash that gave us Trump.   The race wedge politics is ruining this country.   I can't stand Trump, but the race-baiting from the left is hateful, relentless and revolting.  

And here I thought your claim about the GND increasing greenhouse gas emissions was a whopper.  

Shine on you crazy diamond! 

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12 minutes ago, tommyGunZ said:

And here I thought your claim about the GND increasing greenhouse gas emissions was a whopper.  

Shine on you crazy diamond! 

The actual things proposed  in the GND absolutely will increase greenhouse gases.   It is not even debatable.   The GND calls for a massive amount of infrastructure which is probably the most carbon intensive activity known to man.   Unless you live in some fantasy land where construction equipment runs off of solar.  

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1 hour ago, jon_mx said:

The actual things proposed  in the GND absolutely will increase greenhouse gases.   It is not even debatable.   The GND calls for a massive amount of infrastructure which is probably the most carbon intensive activity known to man.   Unless you live in some fantasy land where construction equipment runs off of solar.  

Why do you think folks who believe reducing greenhouse gas emissions is the highest priority for our planet want to make these investments?   

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5 hours ago, urbanhack said:

Why are we allowing corporations to hire them?  Why aren't they a target in all of this?

I'm for doing both actually.

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6 hours ago, Joe Bryant said:

Can you unpack that more specifically with race?

What do you feel is being limited now?

The wedges he’s talking about are most easily seen with race or ethnicity. Today conservatives tell the poor majority (who are white) that the “problem” is the poor minority- blacks, Hispanics, immigrants. “You can’t get ahead because dark people are taking your jobs. You pay too much taxes because dark people abuse welfare. Your vote doesn’t count because dark people in buses vote twice!”  Then, while the poor people are distractedly blaming each other and fighting over crumbs, the elites slash taxes on the rich, etc. 

It’s an old story, the same way successive generations of poor white Americans blamed the latest immigrants for their problems.  Those damn Germans/Polish/Irish/Italians/Jews!

So the super rich get 98% of everything while everyone else thinks there’s only the remaining 2% left  

If the poor would wake up and see that Juan and Derek and Steve have everything in common with each other and nothing in common with Trump or Bill Gates or Warren Buffett, they would be much more powerful and might vote in their own actual interests for once.

At least, that’s what I think NCC means  

 

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5 hours ago, boots11234 said:

How about stop supporting the party that supports open borders that allow low skilled labor in that suppress wages.  Oh wait that’s why trump won.   And stop with all the white/black identity politics. People are sick of it.  

Trump is the biggest proponent of identity politics in my lifetime, only it's white identity so I guess that's okay.

As to your wage suppression argument (which I don't agree with but I'll humor you for a moment), if immigrants are taking jobs somebody had to pay them, right? In the last year, the Trump administration has charged 11 people for employing undocumented workers. Not 11 thousand people or 11 companies but 11 people total. About 1 for every million undocumented workers. 

So while he loves to talk tough on immigration, he'd prefer it remain an issue because white identity politics and being perceived as anti-immigration helps him with his predominantly white base. Otherwise he might do more to reduce the demand for immigrant labor, to whit he's done next to nothing. 

Sure seems wedge-y to me. 

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8 hours ago, NCCommish said:

For working class and poor whites to figure out they have more in common with working class or poor people no matter the color of their skin than they do with rich white folks? As a voting bloc if these groups could get past the wedges they would run things. They would command the policy discussion because they still have one avenue if power left,  the ballot box. 

Someone not only blowing the lid off of a multicultural cross-section of the rich being horrifying together but also making sure everyone actually reads and understands it?

Honestly thought Trump would be the thing, but not so much. 

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2 hours ago, tommyGunZ said:

Why do you think folks who believe reducing greenhouse gas emissions is the highest priority for our planet want to make these investments?   

Because the writers believe in government control and spending and are hostile towards capitolism.  The new green deal as written and presented is communism.  It is a total government take over of the economy of which the vast majority has zero to do with reducing greenhouse gases.  

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The posts in this thread make it abundantly clear that the answer to the question posed by the OP is vastly improved social science education.

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17 hours ago, NCCommish said:

For working class and poor whites to figure out they have more in common with working class or poor people no matter the color of their skin than they do with rich white folks? As a voting bloc if these groups could get past the wedges they would run things. They would command the policy discussion because they still have one avenue if power left,  the ballot box. 

I think if a politician and society would speak to them as if they were a block, they might vote as a block. 

But race/gender/identity have been invoked too much by both politicians and society to really allow that to happen. 

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15 hours ago, tommyGunZ said:

I can't fathom the level of intellectual dishonesty it takes to level such a claim.  I understand my conservative friends who don't think the investment in a green new deal is worth it, since the rest of the world is not bound by our internal emission reduction standards.  But I've never heard anyone suggest that the GND actually INCREASES emissions long term.

Just mind numbingly obtuse.  Wow.  

I think he mostly meant that it increases emissions in the short term which then kills us all in 10 years instead of 12. 

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17 hours ago, jon_mx said:

Of course the liberal-think is that the only answer is they must be racist.

However, the correct answer is they know that big government is not the answer.   Free health care, free education, guaranteed income, etc. is a social utopia that will eventually fail.   Government does not produce anything.  People have to work and produce so that there are enough good and services.   As evil, scary and cold-hearted as big corporations are, big government will become far far worse.  Until liberals grasps that not everyone believes in their socialist utopia fantasies, they will never appeal to people who understand that like corporations, government must be limited and kept in check.  But go back to it's all racism and other derogatory beliefs.  

The question posed was: "what will it take for working class and poor whites to figure out they have more in common with working class or poor people no matter the color of their skin than they do with rich white folks?"

Is it your position that working class/poor whites know the bolded things but working class/poor minorities do not?  Because that is what you are saying when you reply to the question posed in this manner.

You and I have certainly had our differences, but that doesn't sound like you.  Can you clarify?

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Posted (edited)
50 minutes ago, TobiasFunke said:

The posts in this thread make it abundantly clear that the answer to the question posed by the OP is vastly improved social science education.

I've been pounding this drum for what seems like forever.  People are under the delusion that the social constructs they learned when they were in grade school and high school are still valid.  They aren't.  What I learned in grade/highschool isn't and I'm 44 years old.  Economics don't work the same way in this global market.  Sociology isn't even the same.  Those policies/theories whatever you want to call them came from a position of "here in the United States...."  We aren't isolated like that anymore and those constructs people learned when we were relatively isolated are antiquated and useless.

ETA:  Welcome back GB...hope all is well...missed you around here.

Edited by The Commish
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29 minutes ago, The Commish said:

I've been pounding this drum for what seems like forever.  People are under the delusion that the social constructs they learned when they were in grade school and high school are still valid.  They aren't.  What I learned in grade/highschool isn't and I'm 44 years old.  Economics don't work the same way in this global market.  Sociology isn't even the same.  Those policies/theories whatever you want to call them came from a position of "here in the United States...."  We aren't isolated like that anymore and those constructs people learned when we were relatively isolated are antiquated and useless.

ETA:  Welcome back GB...hope all is well...missed you around here.

I agree with this, though I’d go further and wonder if the social constructs we were taught in HS were even valid then.  I’m of similar age, and I got an extremely white washed version of US history, social structure, and basic economics back in my HS days.  

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