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Legal Landscape For Tyreek Hill - 7.8.19

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5 hours ago, Hankmoody said:

Or it could just be "there's not sufficient proof that he violated any policy".

Jimmy Smith got suspended FOUR games because "The NFL found evidence of threatening and emotionally abusive behaviors by Jimmy toward his former girlfriend that showed a pattern of improper conduct."

And you don't think there's sufficient proof that Hill is guilty of the same thing? Or even 1/4th the proof that there was in the Jimmy Smith case?

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10 minutes ago, BoltBacker said:

Jimmy Smith got suspended FOUR games because "The NFL found evidence of threatening and emotionally abusive behaviors by Jimmy toward his former girlfriend that showed a pattern of improper conduct."

And you don't think there's sufficient proof that Hill is guilty of the same thing? Or even 1/4th the proof that there was in the Jimmy Smith case?

There might not be. The tape is meh bro. She was baiting him and the news agencies edited in an unprofessional manner which might have actually helped Tyreek. 

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3 minutes ago, Milkman said:

There might not be. The tape is meh bro. She was baiting him and the news agencies edited in an unprofessional manner which might have actually helped Tyreek. 

I'm not saying the un-edited tape was as bad as the edited tape. I'm saying one guy got caught making a threat on tape and got FOUR games, another guy got NOTHING. 

The key piece of this imo is "evidence of threatening and emotionally abusive behaviors". And the NFL found NONE in the case of Hill? Ok.

 

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10 minutes ago, BoltBacker said:

I'm not saying the un-edited tape was as bad as the edited tape. I'm saying one guy got caught making a threat on tape and got FOUR games, another guy got NOTHING. 

The key piece of this imo is "evidence of threatening and emotionally abusive behaviors". And the NFL found NONE in the case of Hill? Ok.

 

One may have been framed from the get go. Supposedly Tyreek provided compelling evidence that he didn't hurt her in 2014.......i don't know if that's true but it's out there. 

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If it's true he was essentially fined millions of dollars for something he didn't do by not being drafted in the 1st round and instead being a 5th rounder. 

 

Time served maybe?

Edited by Milkman

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2 hours ago, BoltBacker said:

I'm not saying the un-edited tape was as bad as the edited tape. I'm saying one guy got caught making a threat on tape and got FOUR games, another guy got NOTHING. 

The key piece of this imo is "evidence of threatening and emotionally abusive behaviors". And the NFL found NONE in the case of Hill? Ok.

 

Is it possible in your mind that the context of his comment was not meant to be a physical threat? But a threat of I have dirt on you so you should be terrified too (or something of that nature).  Or is that just totally out of the question as far as you are concerned?  Because obviously the people that have way more information then we do felt it wasn’t the same as Jimmy Smith.

Edited by Stinkin Ref

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2 hours ago, BoltBacker said:

I'm not saying the un-edited tape was as bad as the edited tape. I'm saying one guy got caught making a threat on tape and got FOUR games, another guy got NOTHING. 

The key piece of this imo is "evidence of threatening and emotionally abusive behaviors". And the NFL found NONE in the case of Hill? Ok.

 

Not to mention that a child’s arm was broken. That was not an accident. He either did it, or covered up for who did it.

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Just now, twistd said:

Not to mention that a child’s arm was broken. That was not an accident. He either did it, or covered up for who did it.

That's simply not true. Kids break their arm all the time falling. 

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5 minutes ago, Milkman said:

That's simply not true. Kids break their arm all the time falling. 

I do not believe for one second this was an accident. DCFS took the child out of the home immediately. They wouldn’t have done that unless they believed the child was in danger. And they are still investigating. 

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7 minutes ago, twistd said:

Not to mention that a child’s arm was broken. That was not an accident. He either did it, or covered up for who did it.

It was reported that the hospital determined it was the result of an accident...

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6 minutes ago, twistd said:

Not to mention that a child’s arm was broken. That was not an accident. He either did it, or covered up for who did it.

Or he doesn't know how it happened and he's not jumping to conclusions about it.  Or no one broke it and it happened as a result of him being a child.  Even Florio admitted this was a bogus clickbait that got debunked early on.

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Just now, twistd said:

I do not believe for one second this was an accident. DCFS took the child out of the home immediately. They wouldn’t have done that unless they believed the child was in danger. And they are still investigating. 

Children get removed all the time...its not always because of physical abuse....they can be temporarily removed for their mental or emotional well being if they are in a bad/dysfunctional environment....which seems to definitely be part of the case here....

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3 hours ago, BoltBacker said:

Jimmy Smith got suspended FOUR games because "The NFL found evidence of threatening and emotionally abusive behaviors by Jimmy toward his former girlfriend that showed a pattern of improper conduct."

And you don't think there's sufficient proof that Hill is guilty of the same thing? Or even 1/4th the proof that there was in the Jimmy Smith case?

I don't know what that evidence was, but Smith himself released a statement taking responsibility and admitting wrong.  All I have seen of Tyreek was "you should be afraid of me #####" or something to that regard and we don't know the context of those remarks - at least I don't, and every comment I've read has been that it's not nearly so bad when you hear the whole tape.  Is there more than just this tape that everyone is dismissing?

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14 minutes ago, Stinkin Ref said:

Is it possible in your mind that the context of his comment was not meant to be a physical threat? But a threat of I have dirt on you so you should be terrified too (or something of that nature).  Or is that just totally out of the question as far as you are concerned?  Because obviously the people that have way more information then we do felt it wasn’t the same as Jimmy Smith.

I think it is possible.

I have no idea what other people know that we don't know. I'm sure they heard Hill's version of what happened directly from him while I have not, but I'm not sure if that constitutes "way more information". The people making these decisions gave Ray Rice a 4 game suspension after hearing directly from Ray Rice what happened. Then they saw a video that was exactly what Ray Rice had told them. With that "way more information" Ray Rice suddenly got a suspension an order of magnitude larger. 

My position is the NFL is inconsistent with the suspensions that it gives players. You can certainly disagree with that if you like. Maybe my opinion is an outlier. But I am certainly not alone in thinking they are inconsistent....

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/08/11/nfl-frequently-flouts-its-own-six-game-suspension-domestic-violence-policy/

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2018/12/04/hunt-video-just-latest-case-of-nfls-reactive-discipline/38668483/

https://deadspin.com/steelers-mike-mitchell-rails-at-the-nfls-inconsistency-1821063606

https://lawstreetmedia.com/news/nfl-inconsistently-reprimands-players/

https://cornellsun.com/2016/02/23/shatzman-roger-goodells-inconsistency-in-the-punishing-of-nfl-players/

https://www.wcvb.com/article/brady-suspension-unpredecented-grossly-inconsistent-union-says/8222416

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1507734-the-many-inconsistencies-in-nfl-fines

https://spashmirror.com/3563/opinion/nfl-suspensions-are-inconsistent/

http://www.theprogressnews.com/progress_news/goodall-s-nfl-fines-suspensions-and-inconsistencies/article_58f862bd-1e72-58af-9ba7-afbf255c2b0a.html

https://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Daily/Issues/2017/12/07/Leagues-and-Governing-Bodies/NFL-Punishment.aspx

http://miscellanynews.org/2014/09/24/sports/nfl-continues-to-incite-public-outrage-with-inconsistent-punishments-for-players/

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/nfl-domestic-violence-policy-suspensions/

https://bellyupsports.com/2019/07/to-much-suspension-inconsistency-bad-for-nfl/

https://www.nfldraftdiamonds.com/2019/06/nfl-8/

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7 minutes ago, twistd said:

I do not believe for one second this was an accident. DCFS took the child out of the home immediately. They wouldn’t have done that unless they believed the child was in danger. And they are still investigating. 

You don't believe the DFC investigators that cleared him (and her) almost immediately?  If you don't believe them, then surely you put no credibility on the fact they remove the child, right?

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2 minutes ago, Stinkin Ref said:

Children get removed all the time...its not always because of physical abuse....they can be temporarily removed for their mental or emotional well being if they are in a bad/dysfunctional environment....which seems to definitely be part of the case here....

Believe what you want. You may buy this story that Tyreek is innocent, and that he has been treated unfairly. I think he has violence in his past. And I think he did this. And if he gets off this time he will do it again. Because that is who he is. 

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3 minutes ago, Hankmoody said:

You don't believe the DFC investigators that cleared him (and her) almost immediately?  If you don't believe them, then surely you put no credibility on the fact they remove the child, right?

He is still under investigation by the DCFS. He was not cleared by DCFS.

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Just now, twistd said:

He is still under investigation by the DCFS. He was not cleared by DCFS.

He was cleared of the broken arm almost immediately, the act you specified you don't believe he didn't do.

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I don’t understand how the NFL is so harsh on smoking weed, but they don’t seem to care all that much about domestic abuse. Unless it is caught on tape. I don’t think Ray Rice would have been suspended without video, or Hunt for that matter. 

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2 minutes ago, Hankmoody said:

He was cleared of the broken arm almost immediately, the act you specified you don't believe he didn't do.

They obviously cleared him. That is why they are still investigating. Because nothing happened. They do that frequently. They determine that no crime was committed, but they keep on investigating for the hell of it.

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5 minutes ago, twistd said:

He is still under investigation by the DCFS. He was not cleared by DCFS.

Where are you getting this information....I’d like to take a look.

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10 minutes ago, Stinkin Ref said:

Where are you getting this information....I’d like to take a look.

Last thing I remember reading was that Tyreek was in the reunification process with his son.  

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25 minutes ago, Stinkin Ref said:

Where are you getting this information....I’d like to take a look.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/chiefs/2019/07/19/chiefs-tyreek-hill-nfl-no-suspension-investigation-child-abuse-allegations/1776290001/

Specifically says the DCF investigation is ongoing.

Also the evidence won’t allow them to determine who caused the child’s injury. That doesn’t sound like they determined it was an accident. They just can’t charge either of them because they can’t determine who did it.

Edited by twistd
Additional info

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5 minutes ago, twistd said:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/chiefs/2019/07/19/chiefs-tyreek-hill-nfl-no-suspension-investigation-child-abuse-allegations/1776290001/

Specifically says the DCF investigation is ongoing.

Also the evidence won’t allow them to determine who caused the child’s injury. That doesn’t sound like they determined it was an accident. They just can’t charge either of them because they can’t determine who did it.

Thank you for the link.

There were a couple links earlier in the thread stating the hospital determined the arm was broken due to an accident.  It wasn’t that somebody “caused” the child’s injury.

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5 minutes ago, Stinkin Ref said:

Thank you for the link.

There were a couple links earlier in the thread stating the hospital determined the arm was broken due to an accident.  It wasn’t that somebody “caused” the child’s injury.

Also from that article:

Local law enforcement authorities have publicly advised that the available evidence does not permit them to determine who caused the child's injuries,” the NFL said in its statement. 

League investigators interviewed family members of both Hill and Espinal. 

Johnson County district attorney Stephen M. Howe said in a statement in April that prosecutors “believe that a crime has occurred, but the evidence in this case does not conclusively establish who committed the crime against this child.”

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5 hours ago, Milkman said:

If it's true he was essentially fined millions of dollars for something he didn't do by not being drafted in the 1st round and instead being a 5th rounder. 

 

Time served maybe?

Tyreek wasn't gonna be a 1st round pick, he was an insane athlete but didn't produce hardly anything in college. If your hypothetical here is also assuming he would have put together an elite final season in school before declaring without the arrest...that's too many "what if's" for me. 

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8 hours ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

Tyreek wasn't gonna be a 1st round pick, he was an insane athlete but didn't produce hardly anything in college. If your hypothetical here is also assuming he would have put together an elite final season in school before declaring without the arrest...that's too many "what if's" for me. 

I only said it because I've heard/read it. He would have been drafted much higher. That's considering he didn't do it which we don't know and probably never will. 

Edited by Milkman

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On 7/9/2019 at 6:28 PM, TheDirtyWord said:

The one x-factor here could be CBA negotiations.   Not to say a deal wouldn’t get done if talks broke down in 2019, but there is legit money on the table and it seems like we’re starting to see some wiggle room regarding suspensions; albeit for substance abuse, but still.

Firing up the NFLPA which seems to be in a docile mood at the moment for whatever reason right now, might be counterproductive.  And as we know in the NFL...money rules the roost.

 

On 7/9/2019 at 6:54 PM, TheDirtyWord said:

I think if you look back at Zeke, RG angered 1) NFLPA and 2) Jerry Jones.  Clark Hunt isn’t JJ, but if evidence is lacking in this case...this could go sideways in terms of RG’s actions where both owners/players concerned.  

It’s not the NFL giving up power, but Goodell himself...it’s clear he wants this CBA deal done now, because unlike the last CBA, with regard to broadcast rights, the landscape has increased exponentially.  I suspect he sees this next deal as his true legacy maker, a deal in which he builds the next generation framework for how to bring the NFL to the world.

He survived Ray Rice...he survived Kaepernick...he survived Trump.  I could see a scenario where he’s now singularly focused on the above.

@Bayhawks Check out what Albert Breer said on that matter...

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12 hours ago, twistd said:

Not to mention that a child’s arm was broken. That was not an accident. He either did it, or covered up for who did it.

How could you POSSIBLY know this?

So kids NEVER have accidents, that every broken bone sustained by a child means someone else caused it?

The investigators determined that neither Hill or Espinal were responsible for the child's injuries. Do you know something they don't?

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12 hours ago, twistd said:

I do not believe for one second this was an accident. DCFS took the child out of the home immediately. They wouldn’t have done that unless they believed the child was in danger. And they are still investigating. 

All right, I'm late to this thread and see you have made your case to other posters.

I thought that the child was removed because of the phone call that Espinal made that falsely accused Tyreek of causing the broken arm?

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2 hours ago, JamieMurphy said:

How could you POSSIBLY know this?

So kids NEVER have accidents, that every broken bone sustained by a child means someone else caused it?

The investigators determined that neither Hill or Espinal were responsible for the child's injuries. Do you know something they don't?

The investigators determined nothing of the sort. They said a crime was committed. This is a quote from the above article, including a statement from law enforcement:

Local law enforcement authorities have publicly advised that the available evidence does not permit them to determine who caused the child's injuries,” the NFL said in its statement. 

League investigators interviewed family members of both Hill and Espinal. 

Johnson County district attorney Stephen M. Howe said in a statement in April that prosecutors “believe that a crime has occurred, but the evidence in this case does not conclusively establish who committed the crime against this child.”

That does not say they think it was an accident. They did not imply that it could have possibly been an accident. They seem to believe someone caused those injuries. They also seem to believe that a crime was committed. They just don’t have enough evidence to charge anyone. Which I interpret to mean, someone broke the kids arm, but Mommy and Daddy aren’t talking so no one is being charged. Maybe I am wrong, but it seems pretty clear to me. And I’ve read that statement from law enforcement in more than one place. 

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12 minutes ago, twistd said:

The investigators determined nothing of the sort. They said a crime was committed. This is a quote from the above article, including a statement from law enforcement:

Local law enforcement authorities have publicly advised that the available evidence does not permit them to determine who caused the child's injuries,” the NFL said in its statement. 

League investigators interviewed family members of both Hill and Espinal. 

Johnson County district attorney Stephen M. Howe said in a statement in April that prosecutors “believe that a crime has occurred, but the evidence in this case does not conclusively establish who committed the crime against this child.”

That does not say they think it was an accident. They did not imply that it could have possibly been an accident. They seem to believe someone caused those injuries. They also seem to believe that a crime was committed. They just don’t have enough evidence to charge anyone. Which I interpret to mean, someone broke the kids arm, but Mommy and Daddy aren’t talking so no one is being charged. Maybe I am wrong, but it seems pretty clear to me. And I’ve read that statement from law enforcement in more than one place. 

The broken arm and the use of corporal punishment are two separate things. The investigators determined that neither Hill or Espinal caused the broken arm. The taped conversation implies that both parents have used corporal punishment (a belt) to punish the child. Whether someone went too far was what was being investigated is my understanding of the matter.

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16 minutes ago, JamieMurphy said:

The broken arm and the use of corporal punishment are two separate things. The investigators determined that neither Hill or Espinal caused the broken arm. The taped conversation implies that both parents have used corporal punishment (a belt) to punish the child. Whether someone went too far was what was being investigated is my understanding of the matter.

This is from a CBS sports article:

This office has reviewed all the evidence and has declined to file charges against Tyreek Hill and Crystal Espinal," Johnson County District Attorney Steve Howe said. "We are deeply troubled by the situation. We believe a crime has occurred; however, the evidence in this case doesn't establish who committed a crime."

Again that says nothing about investigators determining neither caused the broken arm. Rather they say they believe a crime occurred, but they don’t have the evidence to establish who did it. That is far from clearing them of responsibility. 

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7 minutes ago, twistd said:

This is from a CBS sports article:

This office has reviewed all the evidence and has declined to file charges against Tyreek Hill and Crystal Espinal," Johnson County District Attorney Steve Howe said. "We are deeply troubled by the situation. We believe a crime has occurred; however, the evidence in this case doesn't establish who committed a crime."

Again that says nothing about investigators determining neither caused the broken arm. Rather they say they believe a crime occurred, but they don’t have the evidence to establish who did it. That is far from clearing them of responsibility. 

From http://www.810whb.com/2019/06/10/whb-exclusive-tyreek-hill-did-not-break-sons-arm/

“The investigation into the couple’s parenting accelerated when Overland Park police checked on the boy in March and found bruises and welts on his body,” the report explains. “Both Hill and Espinal have admitted to investigators that they spanked the three-year-old with their hands and a belt, but prosecutors can’t determine for sure which parent, or if both, went too far.

“In April Johnson County District Attorney Steve Howe held a press conference to announce criminal charges wouldn’t be brought against Hill or Espinal but stated he believed a crime was committed against the boy and it was believed the crime was about the broken arm.  It was not.  Howe’s team has halted working on the case as they still can’t bring charges for bruising and harming the boy.”

 

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Really, the only opinion that matters is Goodell's. Love him, hate him, disagree with him, he has made his decision. Moving on, I wish nothing but the best for Hill and his children. I hope he has a successful and fruitful NFL career and the only headlines he garners are those about his achievements on the field.

FF-wise, he's a top 5 WR, maybe top 3, and as I said in the other thread, those who drafted early may have gotten the steal of the draft if Hill fell to the 10th or higher. Could swing some major tournaments. I'm guessing that the teams that win the major high stakes leagues will have Hill on them and they got him in the 6th or later.

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Can we please let this thread die and go back to talking fantasy football in the "real" Tyreek Hill thread?

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1 hour ago, twistd said:

The investigators determined nothing of the sort. They said a crime was committed. This is a quote from the above article, including a statement from law enforcement:

Local law enforcement authorities have publicly advised that the available evidence does not permit them to determine who caused the child's injuries,” the NFL said in its statement. 

League investigators interviewed family members of both Hill and Espinal. 

Johnson County district attorney Stephen M. Howe said in a statement in April that prosecutors “believe that a crime has occurred, but the evidence in this case does not conclusively establish who committed the crime against this child.”

That does not say they think it was an accident. They did not imply that it could have possibly been an accident. They seem to believe someone caused those injuries. They also seem to believe that a crime was committed. They just don’t have enough evidence to charge anyone. Which I interpret to mean, someone broke the kids arm, but Mommy and Daddy aren’t talking so no one is being charged. Maybe I am wrong, but it seems pretty clear to me. And I’ve read that statement from law enforcement in more than one place. 

You aren't even trying to be impartial are you?  You haven't even looked at the facts.

He was cleared of breaking the child's arm as was Espinal.  The future investigations they are performing, and the injuries being references, are the bruising and welts thought to be caused by excessive discipline, and they cannot determine who was involved in that.

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1 hour ago, twistd said:

This is from a CBS sports article:

This office has reviewed all the evidence and has declined to file charges against Tyreek Hill and Crystal Espinal," Johnson County District Attorney Steve Howe said. "We are deeply troubled by the situation. We believe a crime has occurred; however, the evidence in this case doesn't establish who committed a crime."

Again that says nothing about investigators determining neither caused the broken arm. Rather they say they believe a crime occurred, but they don’t have the evidence to establish who did it. That is far from clearing them of responsibility. 

http://www.810whb.com/2019/06/10/whb-exclusive-tyreek-hill-did-not-break-sons-arm/

There, it's even spelled out in the link for you.

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18 minutes ago, Hankmoody said:

This article is from June 10th. The more recent articles I have read, and linked, say nothing of both parents being cleared. In fact they contradict what your article says. What I have read more recently, says that there is an ongoing DCF investigation. And that a crime was committed but they don’t have enough evidence to press charges. The SI article is more nuanced about what the Goodell did, and why he did it. I believe the parents are now in a custody battle, and more details may come to light. And if the DCF investigation uncovers more evidence the criminal case may be reopened. So I believe this isn’t over. 

Edited by twistd
Adding to it

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