Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
eoMMan

Why can't some things just be accidents? (Cruise toddler lawsuit)

Recommended Posts

3 minutes ago, eoMMan said:

Why can’t some things just be accidents?

Because maybe they shouldn’t have been, and were entirely preventable if not for negligence? 🤷‍♂️

(Not saying that’s the case here, but just answering your question as it sounds entirely possible.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that the family is suing the cruise line, in part, for a money grab, but mainly to assuage the grandfather’s guilt and negligence for the child’s death.

Even giving the family the benefit of the doubt that it was odd and negligent for the cruise ship to have one open window among many closed windows, the grandfather’s negligence still strikes me as more directly responsible for his granddaughter’s death.  But for the grandfather lifting the child up to bang on the glass (as he said was his intention because the kid enjoys pounding the glass around hockey rinks) there was no way for the child to fall through the open area.

And a few questions on that:

1. Who holds up a one year old to pound on a window multiple stories up?  And if you do that, how could you not have a super secure grip to prevent a possible fall through the window?

2. The grandfather said he assumed there was a window in front of him for the child to pound on because there was windows all around, but how do you not notice that there isn’t a pane of glass right in front of you and that it’s open instead?  Did grandpa lack all awareness?

With all that said, such a sad and traumatic story regardless of who is more negligent.

Edited by Gary Coal Man
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here are a bunch of photos of the area of the ship in question.  In many, you can see the "wall of windows" being referenced in the background.  The one I linked directly is probably the closest view.  So, I assume it was one of the windows in the middle row that was open...just above the wooden rail.  I am not really sure how they open, but I would think it would be very obvious if a window is open.  The wind blowing through those things would be pretty significant.  Sad story

ETA...looks like some of the windows are open in this photo

Edited by Galileo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Plenty of things are just accidents and don't wind up in lawsuits. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Zow said:

Plenty of things are just accidents and don't wind up in lawsuits. 

True.  I'm pretty sure they don't end up in the news as often.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

geez that's awful

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Galileo said:

Here are a bunch of photos of the area of the ship in question.  In many, you can see the "wall of windows" being referenced in the background.  The one I linked directly is probably the closest view.  So, I assume it was one of the windows in the middle row that was open...just above the wooden rail.  I am not really sure how they open, but I would think it would be very obvious if a window is open.  The wind blowing through those things would be pretty significant.  Sad story

ETA...looks like some of the windows are open in this photo

https://images.cruisecritic.com/image/7418878/image_600x_.jpg

I wonder if it was in this area. This was the last one in your link and it appears to have a wooden rail. It’s sad, but I agree that it would be hard to not notice it being open (sound, wind and color) and how do you let you let a one year old sit or stand on a railing anyway? She gets hurt if she falls into the ground. Way back when I was a little kid and there weren’t seatbelts, I opened my car door on the highway and due to the sound my dad reached back and grabbed me so I wouldn’t fall out.

Also, how do you not check the window? I’ve stayed in very high hotels where the windows do open and it’s pretty obvious from the locks, hinges and levers present on a window that opens. Not a chance I would put my granddaughter on the ledge of a windows on the 11th floor without even checking of the window opens or not. I wouldn’t do it regardless, especially unattended as the article says.

I’m sure the grandpa is completely distraught, but I’d put him as negligent because it’s hard to fathom missing every clue and not holding on to his granddaughter on a railing 3 feet above a hard surface and also 11 stories up.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

imo the news media loves negative cruise stories for some reason.  how many thousands or millions cruise every year?  but god forbid a boat hits a storm ON WATER or people get sick, it’s like the end of the world.  i’ve been on a bunch of cruises, betcha grandpa was lifting kid all the way up to do something stupid.  to fall out those windows or off the boat up there honestly takes something highly stupid or really purposeful.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Chemical X said:

imo the news media loves negative cruise stories for some reason.  how many thousands or millions cruise every year?  but god forbid a boat hits a storm ON WATER or people get sick, it’s like the end of the world.  i’ve been on a bunch of cruises, betcha grandpa was lifting kid all the way up to do something stupid.  to fall out those windows or off the boat up there honestly takes something highly stupid or really purposeful.

I seem to see some confirmation bias there.  But since regulations on the cruise ship industry are not especially great, quite a few incidents are their fault.  And since it's the media's job to report on things that concern people as a whole, ignoring those things would be very unhelpful.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Zow said:

Plenty of things are just accidents, especially in large Catholic families.

 

  • Laughing 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have been following this story and admittedly I immediately jumped on the Michael Jackson story and wanted this guy hung. But as more news comes out, and after seeing these pictures, I have to say, I am a little surprised those windows open. I'm not absolving the granddad here. But he isn't quite as negligent as I first thought.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, DallasDMac said:

I have been following this story and admittedly I immediately jumped on the Michael Jackson story and wanted this guy hung. But as more news comes out, and after seeing these pictures, I have to say, I am a little surprised those windows open. I'm not absolving the granddad here. But he isn't quite as negligent as I first thought.

But who wants to look at the ocean through the glass?  They open above waist level.  If it were a railing, the height wouldn't be any different.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Mrs. Rannous said:

But who wants to look at the ocean through the glass?  They open above waist level.  If it were a railing, the height wouldn't be any different.

I was actually just thinking of the safety factor. I've seen so many people beyond reasonably drunk that I'm not sure a 12 foot high wall could stop some of them from hurting themselves. But you're right, much of the ship has only rails. Tragic either way. Not only was an innocent child lost, it is going to tear that family apart I imagine.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, DallasDMac said:

I have been following this story and admittedly I immediately jumped on the Michael Jackson story and wanted this guy hung. But as more news comes out, and after seeing these pictures, I have to say, I am a little surprised those windows open. I'm not absolving the granddad here. But he isn't quite as negligent as I first thought.

But, if you go up one level to the 12th deck, there aren’t going to be any windows above the rail.  Should the cruise company enclose the whole ship?  Admittedly, I do not have all the details here, but to me it seems grandpa is unfortunately the negligent one here.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What a tragedy. Feel bad for poor ol grandpa but... I have a hard time pinning much blame on the cruise line based on the info we have here. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Galileo said:

But, if you go up one level to the 12th deck, there aren’t going to be any windows above the rail.  Should the cruise company enclose the whole ship?  Admittedly, I do not have all the details here, but to me it seems grandpa is unfortunately the negligent one here.

we can go the baseball overreaction and bubble wrap the entire population and then net the entire country.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don’t really care about the lawsuit angle - that’s just a horrific story and I feel horrible for the family.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tragic. I feel sad for the family.

Not saying this wasn't just a horrible accident, but struggling to believe an adult wouldn't notice the window was open. As we get older, I think sometimes we do dumb things that could be overcome if we still had the reflexes, strength etc., that we had when we were much younger.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Galileo said:

But, if you go up one level to the 12th deck, there aren’t going to be any windows above the rail.  Should the cruise company enclose the whole ship?  Admittedly, I do not have all the details here, but to me it seems grandpa is unfortunately the negligent one here.

Yes. But if you know it’s only a railing you wouldn’t lift a child up to lean on a window that didn’t exist. 

I don’t see the ship having the liability here but there’s a reason high rise hotel windows don’t open for example. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, mr roboto said:

Yes. But if you know it’s only a railing you wouldn’t lift a child up to lean on a window that didn’t exist. 

I don’t see the ship having the liability here but there’s a reason high rise hotel windows don’t open for example. 

I’ve been in some older high rise hotels where they did open. That’s an older cruise ship and when I stayed in a hotel with windows that open it was pretty obvious that they did. It wasn’t a secret opening window with no hinges/lock. One glance and it was obvious that it opened.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i have never understood frankly why every cruise ship does not have a net that runs about 4 to 5 feet out under any point there is a water side railing those are high enough that it would not be an issue with docks etc so i dont get it take that to the bank brohans 

Edited by SWC
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sad.  I personally think they are grasping to justify the accident.  I understand that as a coping mechanism, but I think this squarely falls on the family.  The little girl would not have been able to reach the open window without the grandfather placing her on the rail.  I can't imagine being one of those parents, just a horrible tragedy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

“(The grandfather) will cry over and over and over. At no point ever, ever, has Sam ever put our kids in danger.”

Well...

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, the parents said she "fell out a window." No, she didn't. Her grandfather DROPPED her out a window. Big difference.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is a horrible, tragic accident and I feel bad for the grandpa and the family. Looking at the photos the windows open are much higher than a toddler.  A child would have to be lifted to be put in range of those open windows.

From the pictures I assume the windows are there for adults to stand and feel the breeze and fresh air of the seas while cruising. Is the cruise line to blame? Not so sure in this case.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't see anything wrong with those windows opening above the railing. Sadly, this just sounds like an accident and is on the grandfather. Suing is lame and misguided.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

She didn't fall, she was dropped.  Awful, but of the millions of people that have passed thru the area, what is the number of out the window falls?

Like I said, cruise lines seem to be a media darling of negativity in ratio to the numbers that cruise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm kinda surprised cruise ships dont have some type of perimeter netting. Something that would stick out about 4 or so feet at about the mid-height of the ship that could help 'catch' someone who fell over the railing. 

Trust me, i hate 'stupid proofing' stuff, but something like this would be like adding netting around the backs of hockey rinks IMO, even if it saves 1 or 2 people. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, glvsav37 said:

I'm kinda surprised cruise ships dont have some type of perimeter netting. Something that would stick out about 4 or so feet at about the mid-height of the ship that could help 'catch' someone who fell over the railing. 

Trust me, i hate 'stupid proofing' stuff, but something like this would be like adding netting around the backs of hockey rinks IMO, even if it saves 1 or 2 people. 

It would block views and obstruct balcony cabins I assume.  Also, the wind and drag from an engineering standpoint must be rough. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Chemical X said:

She didn't fall, she was dropped. 

There’s another dropped baby death in the news today with questions as to which woman is more responsible for the baby’s death — the mom with baby in arm who angrily confronted another lady or the other lady for swinging at a mom with a baby in her arm?

The mom has been charged with the baby’s murder.

 

Link with video

A Georgia mother has been charged with murder for dropping her three-month-old baby while being slapped by a woman outside a beauty store. 

Karen Lashun Harrison, 26, has been charged with felony murder, first degree cruelty to children, second degree cruelty to children, simple battery and affray. 

On July 19, she got into a fight with an unidentified woman outside a beauty store in Moultrie, Georgia, and dropped her three-month-old son in a concrete parking lot. 

The incident was caught on the store's surveillance cameras. 

Video of it shows Harrison cradling her son in one arm and approaching the other woman as they stand next to a car in the parking lot. 

The other woman then swung a shopping bag full of goods to hit Harrison in the face. 

She lost her balance and her grip on the baby then fought back, dropping him. 

As they scrapped in the parking lot, several others ran over. A stranger picked up the baby boy, who they'd left lying on the ground, to fight. 

Harrison waited a day to take him to the hospital then, when she did, police say she lied about how he'd become injured, claiming that he fell and was being looked after by a relative.

He later died.  

 

 

Edited by Gary Coal Man

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Gary Coal Man said:

There’s another dropped baby death in the news today with questions as to which woman is more responsible for the baby’s death — the mom with baby in arm who angrily confronted another lady or the other lady for swinging at a mom with a baby in her arm?

The mom has been charged with the baby’s murder.

 

Link with video

A Georgia mother has been charged with murder for dropping her three-month-old baby while being slapped by a woman outside a beauty store. 

Karen Lashun Harrison, 26, has been charged with felony murder, first degree cruelty to children, second degree cruelty to children, simple battery and affray. 

On July 19, she got into a fight with an unidentified woman outside a beauty store in Moultrie, Georgia, and dropped her three-month-old son in a concrete parking lot. 

The incident was caught on the store's surveillance cameras. 

Video of it shows Harrison cradling her son in one arm and approaching the other woman as they stand next to a car in the parking lot. 

The other woman then swung a shopping bag full of goods to hit Harrison in the face. 

She lost her balance and her grip on the baby then fought back, dropping him. 

As they scrapped in the parking lot, several others ran over. A stranger picked up the baby boy, who they'd left lying on the ground, to fight. 

Harrison waited a day to take him to the hospital then, when she did, police say she lied about how he'd become injured, claiming that he fell and was being looked after by a relative.

He later died.  

 

 

Based on the full story there’s no question whose fault it was. It’s too bad the stranger didn’t call the cops but I don’t think the poor kid had a chance at a good life. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why can't we have nice things?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Chemical X said:

Like I said, cruise lines seem to be a media darling of negativity in ratio to the numbers that cruise.

Biased much?  The media didn't sue the cruise line.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Mrs. Rannous said:

Biased much?  The media didn't sue the cruise line.

Every time someone throws up on board, it’s newsworthy.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Chemical X said:

Every time someone throws up on board, it’s newsworthy.

Nope.  That's just you reading something into it that isn't there.  Lots of people throw up on board all the time.  It's called seasickness.  No one cares.  You have a media bias problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Obviously I feel terrible for the family but I really hope for the sake of justice that the cruise line does not settle nor does a jury rule against them. 

There is nothing inherently dangerous about those windows opening at the height they do and it should have been obvious to the grandfather that the window was open. So obvious that frankly I don't even buy the story that he put her up there to bang on the glass - he must feel horrible and I feel terrible for him that he has to live with this but it's all on him.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Mrs. Rannous said:

Nope.  That's just you reading something into it that isn't there.  Lots of people throw up on board all the time.  It's called seasickness.  No one cares.  You have a media bias problem.

I think there is a little of both.  Cruise line stories are like airplane crash stories.  They tend to involve a lot of people that have no control over what is happening.  Media loves stories like that because it plays into peoples fears which has been shown to increase viewership.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not sure how I feel about the grandfather getting charged here.  He was at fault, imo, but it just feels like throwing him in jail isn't justice for anyone.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, GStrot said:

Looks like the Puerto Rican authorities charged the grandfather with negligent homicide.  Might hurt their case against the cruise line.  
 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/10/28/us/toddler-cruise-ship-death-grandfather-charged/index.html

There is no way that a jury will find the grandfather guilty. No. Way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/9/2019 at 4:44 PM, stbugs said:

 

Also, how do you not check the window? I’ve stayed in very high hotels where the windows do open and it’s pretty obvious from the locks, hinges and levers present on a window that opens. Not a chance I would put my granddaughter on the ledge of a windows on the 11th floor without even checking of the window opens or not. I wouldn’t do it regardless, especially unattended as the article says.

 

 Garry Hoy, a 38-year-old lawyer with the Toronto law firm of Holden Day Wilson, who on 9 July 1993 plunged to his death from the 24th floor of the Toronto-Dominion Bank Tower building at TD Centre in front of several horrified witnesses:

Police said a lawyer demonstrating the safety of windows in a downtown Toronto skyscraper crashed through a pane with his shoulder and plunged 24 floors to his death. A police spokesman said Garry Hoy fell into the courtyard of the Toronto Dominion Bank Tower early Friday evening as he was explaining the strength of the building’s windows to visiting law students. Hoy previously had conducted demonstrations of window strength according to police reports. Peter Lauwers, managing partner of the firm Holden Day Wilson, told the Toronto Sun newspaper that Hoy was “one of the best and brightest” members of the 200-man association.

For motivations that remain unclear to this day Hoy had apparently developed a fondness for showing off the tensile strength of office building windows (and/or demonstrating his fearless trust in that aspect of building design) by running and hurling himself at window panes in front of onlookers, who would watch a stunt that always ended with Hoy’s bouncing off of the window panes, leaving both glass and lawyer unharmed. On a fateful day in 1993, however, Hoy attempted his feat in front of a group of prospective legal apprentices with disastrous results: Apparently the first attempt came off as usual with Hoy harmlessly rebounding off the window, but when Hoy threw himself against the pane a second time, it popped out of its frame and sent Hoy fatally tumbling 24 stories to the courtyard below.

The firm’s spokesperson said Hoy “… was testing the strength of the window. There was a lot of joking about how the window wouldn’t open maybe on a hot day … Apparently, it was the second attempt [at testing the window] that one of them popped out and he went through.” As well, a Toronto police officer reported that Hoy “… was showing his knowledge of the tensile strength of window glass and presumably the glass gave way. I know the frame and the blinds are still there.”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Foosball God said:

Not sure how I feel about the grandfather getting charged here.  He was at fault, imo, but it just feels like throwing him in jail isn't justice for anyone.

Yeah, I think the best result is he doesn't get charged and the cruise line doesn't pay out anything.

I wonder what the investigators saw on their videos that lead them to charge him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, cosjobs said:

  Hoy was “one of the best and brightest”

I beg to differ.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
  • Laughing 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, eoMMan said:

Yeah, I think the best result is he doesn't get charged and the cruise line doesn't pay out anything.

I wonder what the investigators saw on their videos that lead them to charge him.

Agreed. From the CNN story: "...prosecutors allege that Anello "negligently exposed [his granddaughter] through one of the windows," according to a statement from the Puerto Rican Department of Justice."

I think you nailed it. There may be video of this guy doing something very stupid with his granddaughter and shes slipped out of his grasp. 

ETA: I've been on several cruises in the last few years and I have been noticing more and more cameras on deck. Probably to capture the drunk morons who fall overboard, as well as something like this.

Edited by Jobber

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.