As younger people become a growing part of the electorate time will take care of stigma. They are already the majority although some people, Biden, dont seem to get that as they dismiss them and pretend they don't count.And can the current progressives (and honestly most of the candidates will be labled socialist in some form or fashion) overcome the stigma of “socialism” to reach the oval office?
Depends on how you define socialism. I look at it as any government program where taxes are spent on the greater good as socialism and I'm cool with that. The military is socialism. Infrastructure is socialism. Medicare and Medicaid and Social Security is socialism. Our public education system is socialism. IMO a blend of socialism in areas like these with a regulated capitalism that breaks up monopolies that are too big to fail leads to a healthy economy and society.
We are not giving Israel $38 billion. More like $3 billion. What sites do you read?We're giving $38 Billion in aid to Israel. Guess what, they have government funded healthcare. We give them $ and THEIR citizens have their healthcare paid for. But we can't afford it for our own citizens.
We have crappy TrumpCare.
The problem is eventually young people must work to make a living. And once they start working and acheiving, they like to keep what they earn. And eventually those ideas of just spreading the wealth around fades.As younger people become a growing part of the electorate time will take care of stigma. They are already the majority although some people, Biden, dont seem to get that as they dismiss them and pretend they don't count.
I’m 48. Beyond my youthful years. I disagree with your premise. I’m pretty well off and I’d be happy to give up more for other people’s needs who aren’t so fortunate.The problem is eventually young people must work to make a living. And once they start working and acheiving, they like to keep what they earn. And eventually those ideas of just spreading the wealth around fades.
It's 38 over 10 years. The point remains.We are not giving Israel $38 billion. More like $3 billion. What sites do you read?
Wherever socialism has been tried in the past (in the USSR, Poland, East Germany, Cuba, etc.) it has resulted in everybody making way more than $70K a year.Not enough. I have a wife and 2 kids and only make 70K as a family a year so I am for socialism and any type of government assistance we can get.
When people use the term "socialism" they pretty much always mean one of two things. One meaning -- and I think is by far the most common -- is to describe a society that has a robust and expansive welfare state as opposed to a minimalist safety net. Folks who use the term that way typically have Nordic countries in mind. The other meaning, which is more academic, reserves the term "socialism" to refer to state ownership of the means of production. It's worth noting that Nordic counties aren't actually socialist by that second definition, which is good to keep in mind as a reminder that these really are two completely different definitions of the same word, and we need to be careful not to slide back and forth between them by accident.cap'n grunge said:Depends on how you define socialism. I look at it as any government program where taxes are spent on the greater good as socialism and I'm cool with that. The military is socialism. Infrastructure is socialism. Medicare and Medicaid and Social Security is socialism. Our public education system is socialism. IMO a blend of socialism in areas like these with a regulated capitalism that breaks up monopolies that are too big to fail leads to a healthy economy and society.
People don't consider police, fire departments, or public schooling socialism either. That's because they don't think about them in those terms. It becomes a problem with definitions when they are forced to think about all those things provided by the government that they appreciate having.When people use the term "socialism" they pretty much always mean one of two things. One meaning -- and I think is by far the most common -- is to describe a society that has a robust and expansive welfare state as opposed to a minimalist safety net. Folks who use the term that way typically have Nordic countries in mind. The other meaning, which is more academic, reserves the term "socialism" to refer to state ownership of the means of production. It's worth noting that Nordic counties aren't actually socialist by that second definition, which is good to keep in mind as a reminder that these really are two completely different definitions of the same word, and we need to be careful not to slide back and forth between them by accident.
It so happens that the US is not very socialist by either definition. Our welfare state is pretty minimal relative to most countries, and the government doesn't produce very many goods and services. But in principle we could nationalize a bunch of industries while keeping our social services programs the way they are, or we could expand our social welfare programs while still relying almost entirely on private enterprise to produce stuff. Those are almost completely unrelated issues.
We (as a society) can always choose to define words however we want. If we define "socialism" in the way you propose, that's completely fine, but then we need to come up with different terms to describe the stuff that people lump under the "socialism" umbrella today. Nobody currently considers the military or highway construction to be socialism.
Well people are saying government funded healthcare is socialism. Do you think the term is being applied correctly?I know it's boring and pedantic to start off a conversation with "Let's define our terms, gentlemen." But I get the impression from many of the posts so far in this thread that people are defining socialism as anything that is not pure anarcho-capitalism. I say that because literally nobody besides anarcho-capitalists has any problem with a government-run military, public libraries, public roads, and some of the other examples that folks are tossing out there.
If we want to have a thread about how closely the US resembles Murray Rothbard's ideal society, I guess we could do so. But then we need a different thread title.
It depends. If you use the term "socialism" to refer to any kind of government spending, then obviously government-funded healthcare would qualify. If you reserve that term for direct production by the state, then Obamacare definitely doesn't qualify, but some alternative healthcare systems might. That's why it's a good idea to start off by being clear and transparent about what we're talking about when we use that word.Well people are saying government funded healthcare is socialism. Do you think the term is being applied correctly?
Actually, I am using the context "anti-socialist" people use all the time. It's not a context I buy at all, but it's what they use. Within that context public schools would be included as socialism. They are ok with paying for 13 years of education, but not 17? This thread dies immediately if you go back to the core definitions of socialism because nothing in this country comes close to that definition including the proposals being brought forth by the "extreme left socialists" running for President.I know it's boring and pedantic to start off a conversation with "Let's define our terms, gentlemen." But I get the impression from many of the posts so far in this thread that people are defining socialism as anything that is not pure anarcho-capitalism. I say that because literally nobody besides anarcho-capitalists has any problem with a government-run military, public libraries, public roads, and some of the other examples that folks are tossing out there.
If we want to have a thread about how closely the US resembles Murray Rothbard's ideal society, I guess we could do so. But then we need a different thread title.
It sounds like you have a disagreement with somebody on some other social media platform that you're trying to "win" here.Actually, I am using the context "anti-socialist" people use all the time. It's not a context I buy at all, but it's what they use. Within that context public schools would be included as socialism. They are ok with paying for 13 years of education, but not 17? This thread dies immediately if you go back to the core definitions of socialism because nothing in this country comes close to that definition including the proposals being brought forth by the "extreme left socialists" running for President.
Not at all. Read this forum. It's all here. Schooling is the most black/white in terms of contradictions that I have seen in a political topic so that's why I brought it up as an example. Any time I ask why paying for 13 years is "good" but 17 is "bad" the discussion stops.It sounds like you have a disagreement with somebody on some other social media platform that you're trying to "win" here.
When people use the term "socialism" they pretty much always mean one of two things. One meaning -- and I think is by far the most common -- is to describe a society that has a robust and expansive welfare state as opposed to a minimalist safety net. Folks who use the term that way typically have Nordic countries in mind. The other meaning, which is more academic, reserves the term "socialism" to refer to state ownership of the means of production. It's worth noting that Nordic counties aren't actually socialist by that second definition, which is good to keep in mind as a reminder that these really are two completely different definitions of the same word, and we need to be careful not to slide back and forth between them by accident.Not at all. Read this forum. It's all here. Schooling is the most black/white in terms of contradictions that I have seen in a political topic so that's why I brought it up as an example. Any time I ask why paying for 13 years is "good" but 17 is "bad" the discussion stops.
Your point was that we should define the terms we are using. I agree 100%. I started pretty far right and gave my reasons for why I did so. If that's not the definition we are going by that's cool. What is the definition?
This is true. I'm not sure if the exact premise is how it plays out, but we've seen this over and over. My dad was telling me once that he remembers thinking "just wait until my generation gets in charge! Things will be different." only to find out his generation of politicians and voters were just as bad if not worse than the ones he was complaining about.jon_mx said:The problem is eventually young people must work to make a living. And once they start working and acheiving, they like to keep what they earn. And eventually those ideas of just spreading the wealth around fades.
While this is noble, you are not well grounded if you think you are in the majority. Most people are like "Summer Wheat" above - they think "this is my situation, so I'm in favor of whatever benefits me." Even the poor people voting for Trump think they are doing that. They're just too stupid to realize they're wrong.Glass Joe said:I’m 48. Beyond my youthful years. I disagree with your premise. I’m pretty well off and I’d be happy to give up more for other people’s needs who aren’t so fortunate.
I apparently missed a thread on this someplace, but I agree that this is a good and interesting topic. The government already subsidizes higher education in a variety of ways, and it's an open question as to whether it should do more or less of that. I work in higher education and I'm not opposed to all forms of government support, but a college education is more of a private good than a public good, and it's probably best that a large chunk of the cost is borne by the student.Schooling is the most black/white in terms of contradictions that I have seen in a political topic so that's why I brought it up as an example. Any time I ask why paying for 13 years is "good" but 17 is "bad" the discussion stops.
How is lower education different by this definition? Premise of the definition seems to be that competition for the good makes it a private good. This applies to lower education as well. Think about what people do to get into "good school districts" or if they aren't in the good school districts what they do to get their kids there anyway. We see this all the time, to the point where it is even part of the real estate equation. My daughter is on a waiting list for a school that is over 500 kids long (K-8) and the process to get into that school is absurd.I apparently missed a thread on this someplace, but I agree that this is a good and interesting topic. The government already subsidizes higher education in a variety of ways, and it's an open question as to whether it should do more or less of that. I work in higher education and I'm not opposed to all forms of government support, but a college education is more of a private good than a public good, and it's probably best that a large chunk of the cost is borne by the student.
I agree. I see public K-12 education as part of our minimalist welfare state, like Social Security. If you're asking why we draw the line at 13 years of education instead of 17, there are two possible answers. One is that we're going to draw the line someplace and 13 looks about right. The other is that we don't actually draw a sharp line at 13 -- the government pays for the first 13 years and then helps out partially for years 14-17.How is lower education different by this definition? Premise of the definition seems to be that competition for the good makes it a private good. This applies to lower education as well.
You think people should get free grad school, too? Why draw the line at 17 when we could go to 21?Not at all. Read this forum. It's all here. Schooling is the most black/white in terms of contradictions that I have seen in a political topic so that's why I brought it up as an example. Any time I ask why paying for 13 years is "good" but 17 is "bad" the discussion stops.
Your point was that we should define the terms we are using. I agree 100%. I started pretty far right and gave my reasons for why I did so. If that's not the definition we are going by that's cool. What is the definition?
This goes to my edit above. Why does this look "right" today? I understand why it looked "right" back in the 60s/70s, but the world is a different place now. Individuals have more to deal with than they did before. I'm wondering why that line stays the same given how different things are today. We hear the argument all the time that we have to help our companies in this global market. We need to do what's necessary for them to succeed. We don't hear that for individuals and I've often tried to get an explanation for that disconnect.I agree. I see public K-12 education as part of our minimalist welfare state, like Social Security. If you're asking why we draw the line at 13 years of education instead of 17, there are two possible answers. One is that we're going to draw the line someplace and 13 looks about right. The other is that we don't actually draw a sharp line at 13 -- the government pays for the first 13 years and then helps out partially for years 14-17.
It's not freeYou think people should get free grad school, too? Why draw the line at 17 when we could go to 21?
A line has to be drawn somewhere.
I thought you were arguing for it to be free?It's not free
Within that context public schools would be included as socialism. They are ok with paying for 13 years of education, but not 17?
I was attempting to articulate a position I've heard many times, but I can't seem to do that correctly. It's not something I agree with, so I am probably not the best person to try and make that argument.I thought you were arguing for it to be free?
Per that article, it is a negotiating tool. We are buying influence there, not funding their healthcare.Amused to Death said:It's 38 over 10 years. The point remains.
Actually whether or not this is true for the class of 2020 and beyond is an interesting question. I wonder if individually most people would be better off receiving highly specialized training for well paying jobs of today and then repeating this several times over their working careers as specific jobs come and go as opposed to a more generic college education? For society I think the broader knowledge base of individuals would likely be beneficial in many ways. At first I was going to mention that innovation would come from those with broader knowledge but then I started to think that many of the best known billionaires are dropouts who simply had tunnel vision.but a college education is more of a private good than a public good, and it's probably best that a large chunk of the cost is borne by the student.
It sounded like it was a position you've taken, if for nothing else, to be a devil's advocate.I was attempting to articulate a position I've heard many times, but I can't seem to do that correctly. It's not something I agree with, so I am probably not the best person to try and make that argument.
To be clear, NONE of these programs are "free"...someone's paying for them and IMO, everyone should be paying SOMETHING into the system from which they are taking. It can be actual money, time, effort, etc. I've never seen a successful, thriving, healthy social program where people who were benefiting from the program weren't required to give back to it sans charities.
I don't think we can predict the paths the next billionaires take or the best path for people in general or the best path where innovation comes from. Therefore, I think the best approach for society is to make more options available and let people decide which path they would like to take (within reason). Hedge our bets as a society, if you will.Actually whether or not this is true for the class of 2020 and beyond is an interesting question. I wonder if individually most people would be better off receiving highly specialized training for well paying jobs of today and then repeating this several times over their working careers as specific jobs come and go as opposed to a more generic college education? For society I think the broader knowledge base of individuals would likely be beneficial in many ways. At first I was going to mention that innovation would come from those with broader knowledge but then I started to think that many of the best known billionaires are dropouts who simply had tunnel vision.
So in other words I don't know that I am arguing with your statement but just thinking out loud where I am talking myself in and out of agreement. Which is what makes the question interesting to me.
Yep. When they arent minors any more seems like a good place to draw it.You think people should get free grad school, too? Why draw the line at 17 when we could go to 21?
A line has to be drawn somewhere.
Its ok that we give billions to billionaires and huge corporations, but when us little people actually want affordable education and healthcare we're labelled as wanting a handout.To answer my own question, a large amount of government programs are socialist in mature. That doesn't make us a socialist nation.
The current divide is where some wish to draw the line saying “thats too much”. Whether that is education, healthcare...
There is also a state/local/federal discussion involved too.I agree. I see public K-12 education as part of our minimalist welfare state, like Social Security. If you're asking why we draw the line at 13 years of education instead of 17, there are two possible answers. One is that we're going to draw the line someplace and 13 looks about right. The other is that we don't actually draw a sharp line at 13 -- the government pays for the first 13 years and then helps out partially for years 14-17.
Don't think we as a society care so much about the creation of billionaires as much as to the innovation that creates them. And I'm not sure that everything that creates enormous wealth for their creators is all that great for society in general, but I still think that ultimately the "marketplace of ideas" is still the best place to ultimately hash this out. And for that I agree that options for individuals to take their own paths is best approach. But the academic question of whether or not a college education is more of a "public" or "private" good going forward remains for me. Or maybe the answer is just "yes".I don't think we can predict the paths the next billionaires take or the best path for people in general or the best path where innovation comes from. Therefore, I think the best approach for society is to make more options available and let people decide which path they would like to take (within reason). Hedge our bets as a society, if you will.