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timschochet

Criticism of Israel: Update: Israel, at Trump’s urging, rejects Tlaib and Omar, then reverses itself on Tliab after she requests visit on humanitarian grounds; then Tliab says she won’t go anyhow.

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I felt the need to start a new thread on this very specific subject because it’s a big part of President Trump’s tweets, and, much larger than him, it’s been a big part of the Republican message for the last decade or so. Here is that message, broken down, as it has been heavily implied (or in the case of Trump, explicitly stated): 

1. The Republican Party supports the state of Israel; the Democratic Party does not. 

2. Any criticism of the current actions of the government of the State of Israel is the same as being opposed to the existence of the State of Israel. 

3. Being opposed to the State of Israel is the same as being anti-Semitic. 

4. Being concerned with the plight of Palestinians is the same as being opposed to the State of Israel. 

All of these statements are false. I used to believe that their main purpose was a cynical attempt to move American Jews to the Republican Party, but now I think it’s a bit deeper than that. I think many if not most  conservatives believe these statements to be true. 

Edited by timschochet

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2 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I felt the need to start a new thread on this very specific subject because it’s a big part of President Trump’s tweets, and, much larger than him, it’s been a big part of the Republican message for the last decade or so. Here is that message, broken down, as it has been heavily implied (or in the case of Trump, explicitly stated): 

1. The Republican Party supports the state of Israel; the Democratic Party does not. 

2. Any criticism of the current actions of the government of the State of Israel is the same as being opposed to the existence of the State of Israel. 

3. Being opposed to the State of Israel is the same as being anti-Semitic. 

4. Being concerned with the plight of Palestinians is the same as being opposed to the State of Israel. 

All of these statements are false. I used to believe that their main purpose was a cynical attempt to move American Jews to the Republican Party, but now I think it’s a bit deeper than that. I think many if not most  conservatives believe these statements to be true. 

Unfortunately I know Jews who believe most of these are true. In fact it is difficult to even talk about the subject with some Jews and Palestinians I encounter in business as the hatred runs deep among both and most refuse to even listen to different ideas or thoughts. 

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5. It is a cudgel to be used against their opponents, and they do not actually care about anti-semitism at all.

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8 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I felt the need to start a new thread on this very specific subject because it’s a big part of President Trump’s tweets, and, much larger than him, it’s been a big part of the Republican message for the last decade or so. Here is that message, broken down, as it has been heavily implied (or in the case of Trump, explicitly stated): 

1. The Republican Party supports the state of Israel; the Democratic Party does not. 

2. Any criticism of the current actions of the government of the State of Israel is the same as being opposed to the existence of the State of Israel. 

3. Being opposed to the State of Israel is the same as being anti-Semitic. 

4. Being concerned with the plight of Palestinians is the same as being opposed to the State of Israel. 

All of these statements are false. I used to believe that their main purpose was a cynical attempt to move American Jews to the Republican Party, but now I think it’s a bit deeper than that. I think many if not most  conservatives believe these statements to be true. 

What do you think their purpose is?

I think it's actually a bit shallower than trying to boost support from American Jews. I think they're deflecting criticism of their own bigotry by lashing out at others with allegations of bigotry. It's a pretty standard tactic of Trumpism: see "no puppet, no puppet, you're the puppet!" "Clinton/the Democrats were the real colluders," etc.

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10 minutes ago, TobiasFunke said:

What do you think their purpose is?

I think it's actually a bit shallower than trying to boost support from American Jews. I think they're deflecting criticism of their own bigotry by lashing out at others with allegations of bigotry. It's a pretty standard tactic of Trumpism: see "no puppet, no puppet, you're the puppet!" "Clinton/the Democrats were the real colluders," etc.

Trump may be trying to deflect, sure. 

But for the most part I think these guys believe it. And I do think it’s rooted in something deeper. I think Israel has become the white guy surrounded by non-white savages. 

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19 minutes ago, Da Guru said:

Unfortunately I know Jews who believe most of these are true. In fact it is difficult to even talk about the subject with some Jews and Palestinians I encounter in business as the hatred runs deep among both and most refuse to even listen to different ideas or thoughts. 

I can’t even talk to most of my older Jewish relatives about this subject any more. When I have in the past, the moment I mentioned anything even vaguely sympathetic to the plight of Palestinians, I was suddenly in a cattle car headed to Auschwitz. The Holocaust is the ultimate card played again and again, it is represented as the inevitable fate of any Jew who seeks peace or compromise with the Arabs. 

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I agree with you that it has little to do with moving Jewish voters to the Republican Party. I think it has more to do with:

1. Moving (and/or placating current) Jewish donors

2. Placating Evangelicals. Maybe I'm biased because the Jewish people I'm closest to are largely secular. But it seems to me there is more fervent support for Israel (or at least the current Israeli government) among American Evangelicals than there is among American Jews.

Edited by Murph

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Do you think this would be as prevalent if Israel did not have a far right wing government right now?

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Jonathan Greenblatt, the head of the Anti-Defamation League, said Mr. Trump’s use of Israel in his comments hurts the Jewish community.

“He doesn’t speak for any of us,” Mr. Greenblatt wrote in a Twitter post on Monday. “We call on ALL leaders across the political spectrum to condemn these racist, xenophobic tweets & using Jews as a shield.”

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I have been very critical of Israel the government. I have known and been very close to many American Jews. I have no desire to see the Jewish people suffer any further. I also can not support what I see as a government hip deep in breaking international law and basically replicating the ghettos of Warsaw in the territories.  I don't see those as in any way in conflict.

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4 minutes ago, NCCommish said:

I have been very critical of Israel the government. I have known and been very close to many American Jews. I have no desire to see the Jewish people suffer any further. I also can not support what I see as a government hip deep in breaking international law and basically replicating the ghettos of Warsaw in the territories.  I don't see those as in any way in conflict.

And they aren't. I strongly disagree with you on your use of the Warsaw Ghetto, in which 200,000 died of starvation and almost all of the rest were transported to gas chambers and killed, but making a dumb and offensive analogy (IMO) doesn't make you an anti-Semite. You're not. 

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7 hours ago, timschochet said:

I felt the need to start a new thread on this very specific subject because it’s a big part of President Trump’s tweets, and, much larger than him, it’s been a big part of the Republican message for the last decade or so. Here is that message, broken down, as it has been heavily implied (or in the case of Trump, explicitly stated): 

1. The Republican Party supports the state of Israel; the Democratic Party does not. 

2. Any criticism of the current actions of the government of the State of Israel is the same as being opposed to the existence of the State of Israel. 

3. Being opposed to the State of Israel is the same as being anti-Semitic. 

4. Being concerned with the plight of Palestinians is the same as being opposed to the State of Israel. 

All of these statements are false. I used to believe that their main purpose was a cynical attempt to move American Jews to the Republican Party, but now I think it’s a bit deeper than that. I think many if not most  conservatives believe these statements to be true. 

They don't understand you can still support the citizens of the country and criticize the government of Israel. I find it difficult to breach the subject with Many Jewish friends as they believe the exact above. I'm glad musicians like Roger Waters and others are refusing to play in the country too. Dave Draiman lead singer of Disturbed is a great example of all of the above. Posting propaganda videos of Palestine and he has family in Israel. I guess they forgot the videos of Israeli Soilders taking target practice at unarmed Palestinians at the boarder in those videos huh? 

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7 hours ago, TobiasFunke said:

What do you think their purpose is?

I think it's actually a bit shallower than trying to boost support from American Jews. I think they're deflecting criticism of their own bigotry by lashing out at others with allegations of bigotry. It's a pretty standard tactic of Trumpism: see "no puppet, no puppet, you're the puppet!" "Clinton/the Democrats were the real colluders," etc.

I think its more of the fact we support and supply the weapons and machines that are attacking Palestine and killing numerous innocent people by the day. To go against the Israeli government is to basically say "we ####ed up and let good people die and supplied the weapons used to do it." Our government can never admit when they are wrong. Those Syrian Rebels we are helping to try and get Assad out of power. Many have ISIS/Al Qada and other terrorist ties but don't tell that to the right. But then the government comes back and tells us Terrorist very very bad people. Yet we supplied Osama Bin Laden the weapons to protect Middle Eastern Boarders from being attacked by the USSR all those yrs ago. It was only after our own FBI ####ed Osama and the people over did they attack us. This is what is called blowback and blowback we sure as hell got. It's what we are dealing with the immigration problem we caused as well 

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Here's some related conflating.  This t-shirt was on sale at the Netroots (grew out of DailyKos) convention this weekend. 
https://jewishinsider.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/IMG_3178-768x1024.jpg

Johnathan Greenblatt. ADL:" while the list on the t-shirts “includes antisemitism among things to ‘resist,’ this claim that Zionism is one of these horrible types of discrimination is, ironically, antisemitic.”

Edited by Mystery Achiever
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Taking a break from my vacation (I’m on a cruise ship now and this is an “at sea” day) to discuss this story which is extraordinary on many levels. When was the last time a President asked another country to forbid congresspeople from going there? What does it say about Netanyahu that he agreed? And when was the last time that AIPAC protested a decision by the Israeli government? According to @ren hoek and a few others around here, AIPAC basically IS the Israeli government! 

Netanyahu is awful anyhow, but shame on him for playing into Trump’s attempt to be as ugly as possible. Tlaib and Omar are the face of the Democrats and they hate Jews. OK

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7 minutes ago, Bucky86 said:

Amazing to watch these countries go all in with the Republican Party.

It's not countries, it's right wingers around the world.

Edited by Gr00vus
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1 minute ago, Gr00vus said:

It's not countries, it's right wingers around the world.

Yep.  Global conservatism is being exposed.  And it's uglier than even many of us critics thought. 

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1 minute ago, tommyGunZ said:

Yep.  Global conservatism is being exposed.  And it's uglier than even many of us critics thought. 

It's not conservatism. It's regressivism and straight up greed. And it's exactly as ugly as I've always thought it's been.

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8 minutes ago, Gr00vus said:

It's not conservatism. It's regressivism and straight up greed. And it's exactly as ugly as I've always thought it's been.

I don't see the difference. 

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10 minutes ago, tommyGunZ said:

I don't see the difference. 

There are conservatives, people who aren't completely change averse, but do tend toward status quo, and are wary of rapid change - be it economic, religious, social, etc. These are the folks who've left the U.S. Republican party recently, and/or are really struggling to stay with it.

What we have now are people who want things to be actively turned back to some imaginary time when their tribe was unquestionably on top, whatever the consequences to anyone else, using whatever measures it takes to make that happen. That's not conservatism. It's regression and greed. That's what's come to dominate the U.S. Republican party. And we see it around the world - in Britain, in Saudi Arabia, in Israel, in Russia, in Turkey, etc. It's a mindset completely dominated by "I've got mine and #### anyone else who seems like they might get to where I am or what I've got that doesn't look, believe, and talk like me." I distinguish that from conservatism. I think mindful conservatism is a necessary counterbalance to progressivism. But that is getting completely buried underneath the regressives.

Edited by Gr00vus
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It's not 'global conservatism' coming out of the woodwork.  It's an apartheid state, ruled by a genocidal murderer who shoots protesters, attempting to block a delegation seeking to visit the Palestinian territories.  This is the aftermath of blanket, unflinching support for Israel's illegal settler state by a bipartisan majority in Congress.

The fact that Israel can even block entry to Palestine, which should at least in theory be its own state with its own autonomy and own legal framework- proves as much.  

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2 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Aside from being illiberal, this is also counter-productive for Israel.  Why go out of your way to hand your critics a free talking point?

I think the current Israeli government is feeling pretty secure in their support from this U.S. administration and enough of the Israeli constituency that they aren't super concerned with optics. In fact, this is probably the look they think will keep them in power and ensure continued support from the U.S. and a majority of U.S. Jews.

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6 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Aside from being illiberal, this is also counter-productive for Israel.  Why go out of your way to hand your critics a free talking point?

We don't really know the full story, they may have felt that it would have hurt their relationship with the Trump administration if they had welcomed Omar and Tlaib.  They might have viewed this as the less bad of the two options.

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https://twitter.com/OmarBaddar/status/1161980369417191429

Israel's decision to bar US Congresswomen Ilhan Omar & Rashida Tlaib from entering (on account of their political views) should permanently put to rest several delusions: 1) The delusion that Israel is a democracy that respects freedom of thought (it isn't & doesn't)...

2) The delusion that Israel respects the American people's representatives. Israel is the single largest recipient of U.S. aid (nearly $40 BILLION this decade), & this is how they treat U.S. officials they disagree with. This is our "greatest ally"?...

3) Rashida Tlaib's inability to visit her family in the West Bank (not in Israel) b/c of Israel's ban puts to rest the delusional myth that Palestinians living in the Palestinian territories are free from Israeli domination & control...

The reality is that Israel controls every meaningful aspect of Palestinian lives not just without representation (aka: apartheid), but specifically under military occupation, meaning an Israeli military dictatorship is the only true authority over Palestinian lives...

Ultimately, Israel faces a difficult choice with conscientious & courageous Congresswomen like Rashida & Ilhan: Either let them in & have them report on the apartheid conditions they've imposed on Palestinians, or bar them & reveal that there is something to hide...

It's still possible that Israel may reverse this decision, perhaps deciding that it's preferable to try to spin the coverage of what Tlaib & Omar see over spinning their denial of entry. But whatever happens, this should be a wake up call to all Americans:

Israel is practicing apartheid against Palestinians, & is continuously engaging in ethnic cleansing, home demolitions, physical abuse, and shooting of unarmed protesters & journalists & medical personnel, & all of it is paid for with OUR TAX MONEY...

They fear Americans who may expose the truth because they couldn't sustain their theft of Palestinian land & oppression of the Palestinian people without U.S. support, & the truth may awaken the conscience of the American people & put an end to Israel's monstrous policies.

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23 minutes ago, Gr00vus said:

There are conservatives, people who aren't completely change averse, but do tend toward status quo, and are wary of rapid change - be it economic, religious, social, etc. These are the folks who've left the U.S. Republican party recently, and/or are really struggling to stay with it.

What we have now are people who want things to be actively turned back to some imaginary time when their tribe was unquestionably on top, whatever the consequences to anyone else, using whatever measures it takes to make that happen. That's not conservatism. It's regression and greed. That's what's come to dominate the U.S. Republican party. And we see it around the world - in Britain, in Saudi Arabia, in Israel, in Russia, in Turkey, etc. It's a mindset completely dominated by "I've got mine and #### anyone else who seems like they might get to where I am or what I've got that doesn't look, believe, and talk like me." I distinguish that from conservatism. I think mindful conservatism is a necessary counterbalance to progressivism. But that is getting completely buried underneath the regressives.

63 million voters voted for Trump - more than any Republican candidate in history.  I would guess that the overwhelming majority of those who voted for Trump would self identify as "conservative".

If the current Republican Party, current Republican President, and current Republican voters don't represent modern American conservatism, who does?  And do they even matter, since apparently they are such an insignificant segment of the voting population - a few thousand voters, maybe?   Remember, despite everything you read about Republican elites and "real conservatives" being anti-Trump, Trump got ALL THE VOTES on the right and remains historically popular.  

The sad truth is that conservatism, much to the disgust of truly thoughtful guys like IK and Yankee, is EXACTLY what we're seeing.  Perhaps it's time we take their word for it.  :shrug:

 

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10 minutes ago, tommyGunZ said:

63 million voters voted for Trump - more than any Republican candidate in history.  I would guess that the overwhelming majority of those who voted for Trump would self identify as "conservative".

If the current Republican Party, current Republican President, and current Republican voters don't represent modern American conservatism, who does?  And do they even matter, since apparently they are such an insignificant segment of the voting population - a few thousand voters, maybe?   Remember, despite everything you read about Republican elites and "real conservatives" being anti-Trump, Trump got ALL THE VOTES on the right and remains historically popular.  

The sad truth is that conservatism, much to the disgust of truly thoughtful guys like IK and Yankee, is EXACTLY what we're seeing.  Perhaps it's time we take their word for it.  :shrug:

 

I guess we're having a no true Scottsman kind of discussion here, but I don't view the party of Trump and his ardent supporters as actual conservatives. They're regressives. It's a regressive party now, not a conservative one. The regressives have always been there, and maybe the old Republican party had been their best match, but up until W. they weren't totally running the show as they are now. There are actual conservatives out there, looking for a political party to call home.

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1 hour ago, Gr00vus said:

It's not conservatism. It's regressivism and straight up greed. And it's exactly as ugly as I've always thought it's been.

Thank you so, so much. It is not conservatism. 

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6 minutes ago, rockaction said:

Thank you so, so much. It is not conservatism. 

I don't know why it took me as long as it did to realize this, but it really registered with me over the last couple of years. That's what the direction has been since Limbaugh got rolling in the 90's - regressivism. I figure some savvy liberal maketdroid would have taken that and run with it by now - but then I realized liberals are painfully bad at marketing in the political realm.

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1 minute ago, Gr00vus said:

Netanyahu or Trump? Or both?

Trump.  I don't give a damn about Yahoo and I wish the US gov't would remove itself from supporting this hostile regime.

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Sorry, but I think this is going to come back on Trump.   Think about a sitting President telling another country to not to allow a sitting Congresswoman/man into the country.  

If President Obama had done this.. all hell would be breaking on the GOP SM.  

Edited by greenroom
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Trying to look at this logically.   Why would arguably the 2 most anti-Semite people in congress need to go together as a package deal to Israel?  I can see Tlaib going there to maybe try to have some dialogue and conversations.  Some in Israel would not like it but it makes sense.  

To add Omar to the mix does not make sense as she has made a number of comments deemed anti-Israel.  If they need 2 send a different congress person with Tlaib to give them more balance.

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26 minutes ago, Summer Wheat said:

Trying to look at this logically.   Why would arguably the 2 most anti-Semite people in congress need to go together as a package deal to Israel?  I can see Tlaib going there to maybe try to have some dialogue and conversations.  Some in Israel would not like it but it makes sense.  

To add Omar to the mix does not make sense as she has made a number of comments deemed anti-Israel.  If they need 2 send a different congress person with Tlaib to give them more balance.

Huh?  

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32 minutes ago, Summer Wheat said:

Trying to look at this logically.   Why would arguably the 2 most anti-Semite people in congress need to go together as a package deal to Israel?  I can see Tlaib going there to maybe try to have some dialogue and conversations.  Some in Israel would not like it but it makes sense.  

To add Omar to the mix does not make sense as she has made a number of comments deemed anti-Israel.  If they need 2 send a different congress person with Tlaib to give them more balance.

Omar and Tlaib were part of a much larger delegation. It wasn’t going to be just the two of them. 

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1 hour ago, Gr00vus said:

I don't know why it took me as long as it did to realize this, but it really registered with me over the last couple of years. That's what the direction has been since Limbaugh got rolling in the 90's - regressivism. I figure some savvy liberal maketdroid would have taken that and run with it by now - but then I realized liberals are painfully bad at marketing in the political realm.

Sincere question here Grooves - when did you start following politics closely?  I ask because I think there is a natural inclination to see a "change" in the way politics is currently played as to the way it was  played back before one began closely following politics.  "Conservativatism didn't used to be like this" is very convenient for folks who used to be conservative back in the day - like me.  But the more and more I read and reflect, the more I believe what we're seeing now isn't some curveball from out of left field, but instead the natural progression and result of a long history of, as you put it very well, a "regressive" movement. 
I highly respect your opinion, so I'd be interested in your thoughts.   

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According to CNN international here, a reporter got wind of this story last week and asked the new press secretary point blank if it was true that Trump was putting pressure on Netanyahu to disinvite Tlaib and Omar. The Press Secretary angrily denied it and called it “fake news” and said that President Trump would never do such a thing and was actually hopeful that the two congresswomen would go to Israel and “learn something.” 

No doubt she believed it. How embarrassing for her when Trump just revealed that it was true all along. I can’t imagine what it’s like to work for this guy. Sarah Sanders is probably chuckling somewhere, or at least she would be if she had preserved a shred of dignity. 

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1 hour ago, greenroom said:

Sorry, but I think this is going to come back on Trump.   Think about a sitting President telling another country to not to allow a sitting Congresswoman/man into the country.  

If President Obama had done this.. all hell would be breaking on the GOP SM.  

Good one.

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