What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.

Criticism of Israel (1 Viewer)

Gr00vus said:
Politics was on full time in my family. When we'd get together for dinner Friday nights when I was a kid, all the adults - dad, mom, grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc. - would discuss/argue politics for fun after the meal was over. Obviously I was in single digits then, but given that I was steeped in that environment my whole life. I think I starting following in my teens - we were one of few liberal families in our neighborhood, there was always kind of an us against the world feel to it.

It may be a natural progression for some elements of the Republican party that has led them to here, but this is definitely a much different set of afflictions than the Republicans presented back in the 80's and early 90's. Sure there was always a don't tax me bent to the party that somewhat felt like thinly veiled selfishness, but it wasn't accompanied by as visceral an opposition to everything different than me thing that's happening now. I don't think Reagan was all that great, and the attempts of those who claim something akin to sainthood for him are very, very strained. But I don't think he'd recognize this Republican party either, and I don't think he'd like it very much. There was a clear break in the 90's when the Limbaughs and such took over that definitely took the Republican party to a different, very bad, place unlike what it had ever been before.
Click to expand...
Here's a short 2015 piece on how Trump and Reagan pushed similar messages - I think it was spot on:  https://www.vox.com/2015/9/16/9338389/donald-trump-ronald-reagan-republican

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
We don't really know the full story, they may have felt that it would have hurt their relationship with the Trump administration if they had welcomed Omar and Tlaib.  They might have viewed this as the less bad of the two options.
Click to expand...
Sorry, I'm a little behind the curve on this story and I thought this was something that Israel decided to do more or less on their on.  I didn't realize that Trump had been leaning on them.  That makes Israel's decision more defensible.  It seems like they should have been able to find a way to resist this request, but who knows what Trump was telling them behind the scenes.  

Obviously this reflects horribly on Trump and sets a terrible precedent for other countries to follow in the future, but it's what we've come to expect from this administration.

 
tommyGunZ said:
Here's a short 2015 piece on how Trump and Reagan pushed similar messages - I think it was spot on:  https://www.vox.com/2015/9/16/9338389/donald-trump-ronald-reagan-republican
Click to expand...
I don't find that article particularly compelling.

For example:

Trump is like Reagan because he's charismatic in communicating the case that he's the one who will fight for voters and "make America great again." Trump is simply running a more Reagan-like campaign than any of his competitors are.
Click to expand...
They're both charismatic - so was Obama. That doesn't mean they're alike politically. Remember at the time Reagan came around, the U.S. was in a not so great place, so Reagan's "make America great again" actually made sense - Trump's similar message is in response to, well, nothing really. There's a significant difference there.

Reagan started out "angry" but he softened over time - that's nothing like Trump. Trump's actually gone the other way.

And this article doesn't go into much (any?) detail about how different their policies are/were.

I think there's significant difference between Reagan and Trump - and I'm not a Reagan fan.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
It's interesting how actual Reaganites all detest Trump, but anti-Reagan leftists insist that we're wrong about our own beliefs and preferences.
Click to expand...
I don’t think that’s true; I think most voters who consider themselves conservative and fans of Reagan also support/voted for Trump.  

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Tlaib will be allowed into Israel.
Click to expand...
Update:

Rep. Rashida Tlaib rejecte Israel’s offer to allow a “purely humanitarian” visit to her elderly Palestinian grandmother in the occupied West Bank.

The firebrand critic of Israel tweeted that she would not “bow down to their oppressive & racist policies.”

Tlaib had told Israeli authorities in a Thursday letter that she would “respect any restrictions” if granted permission to visit her grandmother, who is more than 90 years old. Israel’s Interior Ministry said in a statement it had approved the request.

But Friday morning, Tlaib reversed course and said she would not go after all.
Click to expand...
https://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/ny-rashida-tlaib-israel-west-bank-20190816-gbl62shfdrenvnmqr6jjicswka-story.html

Trump is rightly being criticized for orchestrating this thing, and Israel deserves criticism too, but it's worth keeping in mind that Tlaib is not acting in good faith either.  This is a multi-car pileup of bad behavior.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
Update:

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/ny-rashida-tlaib-israel-west-bank-20190816-gbl62shfdrenvnmqr6jjicswka-story.html

Trump is rightly being criticized for orchestrating this thing, and Israel deserves criticism too, but it's worth keeping in mind that Tlaib is not acting in good faith either.  This is a multi-car pileup of bad behavior.
Click to expand...
I've found it prudent to neither condemn Israel nor the munitions factories that Palestinians hide under elementary schools while in session. 

 
Gr00vus said:
I don't find that article particularly compelling.

For example:

They're both charismatic - so was Obama. That doesn't mean they're alike politically. Remember at the time Reagan came around, the U.S. was in a not so great place, so Reagan's "make America great again" actually made sense - Trump's similar message is in response to, well, nothing really. There's a significant difference there.

Reagan started out "angry" but he softened over time - that's nothing like Trump. Trump's actually gone the other way.

And this article doesn't go into much (any?) detail about how different their policies are/were.

I think there's significant difference between Reagan and Trump - and I'm not a Reagan fan.
Click to expand...
Also, Trump is not charismatic.

Charismatic people make the audience feel special. They exude an energy. Reagan, Clinton, GWB, Obama all had amazing charisma. Regardless of politics, most people would feel special in a room with any of those guys, and there are endless stories about how great those guys are in person.

Trump is ham handed and self centered. The stories about him focus on how entitled and scummy he is. His energy goes into trying to make people agree that HE is special, not that THEY are special. 

Trump is a rich #######. Some people like that, but it’s not charisma

 
tommyGunZ said:
63 million voters voted for Trump - more than any Republican candidate in history.  I would guess that the overwhelming majority of those who voted for Trump would self identify as "conservative".

If the current Republican Party, current Republican President, and current Republican voters don't represent modern American conservatism, who does?  And do they even matter, since apparently they are such an insignificant segment of the voting population - a few thousand voters, maybe?   Remember, despite everything you read about Republican elites and "real conservatives" being anti-Trump, Trump got ALL THE VOTES on the right and remains historically popular.  

The sad truth is that conservatism, much to the disgust of truly thoughtful guys like IK and Yankee, is EXACTLY what we're seeing.  Perhaps it's time we take their word for it.  :shrug:
Click to expand...
Sadly I sort of agree.  Trump and those to whom he appeals flew under the false flag of conservatism.  They were by no stretch of the imagination what that term once meant, but they grabbed the banner. Now, well after they have held that banner for this long I think it now means what they are.  They were a false flag group but they have won the right to fly that false flag as their own.  Former conservatives can lament the loss, but I think it is time to move on, to find a distinctive moniker, one which distances and repudiates this group.  We might try to rebrand or re-label Trump and his supporters but the label has become tainted.

 
Here is where I lament the loss of the word "liberal" as applied to free market/conservative-leaning people. It was a great epithet hurled at us, and I'd appreciate it again. Until then, "classical liberal" it is. 

 
Last edited by a moderator:
tommyGunZ said:
... I think most voters who consider themselves conservative and fans of Reagan also support/voted for Trump.  
Click to expand...
What's your spidey sense on "most" in this context? 50% and some small change? 90% or better? Somewhere in between? 

 
Doug B said:
What's your spidey sense on "most" in this context? 50% and some small change? 90% or better? Somewhere in between? 
Click to expand...
I’m suggesting that Trump essentially got the conservative vote in 2016. Sure, there are exceptions like IK, Yankee, DW, etc. - but unfortunately they were the vast minority, or else Trump wouldn’t have gotten to 63M.  

How would you answer your question?  There is nothing I would love to see more than Trump get annihilated in 2020, ending up with < 30 million votes.  That would tell me that the conservative movement itself repudiated him.  Sadly, I don’t think that will happen.  

 
tommyGunZ said:
How would you answer your question? 
Click to expand...
I go with about two-thirds of self-identified "conservatives". My back-pocket play is that I believe that there are so many unaffiliated voters out there (not merely self-identified centrists) that Trump likely got something like 12-15 million votes from that bloc.

I am continually interested in the conclusions drawn by 2016 exit poll aggregations. Here are three good examples posted by UVa's Center for Politics (charts included about halfway down). The conclusion statement:

Different sources offer varying estimates of Obama 2012-Trump 2016 voters. The ANES found that about 13% of all Trump voters cast a ballot for Obama in 2012. Meanwhile, the CCES found a slightly smaller figure of around 11%. Lastly, the UVA Center for Politics poll found that about 15% of Trump voters claimed to have backed Obama four years earlier. Using these percentages (not rounded) and Trump’s overall 2016 vote total, estimates of the raw number of such Obama-Trump voters range from about 6.7 million to 9.2 million (their bolding - db). That’s a wide range, and considering the caveats regarding voter recall of past votes, it is important to be clear about the relative uncertainty of these figures.

Nonetheless, these surveys offer additional evidence about a critical part of the 2016 equation: the millions of voters who switched from Obama in 2012 to Trump in 2016. Given the extremely close margins in some states, particularly the Rust Belt trio of Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin, these voters played a crucial role in handing over the White House to the GOP.
Click to expand...
And I'm adding to THAT number unaffiliated voters who didn't vote for Obama in 2012 and then went Trump 2016 -- people who didn't come out at all in 2012, people who voted third party in 2012, staunch centrists who voted Obama 2008 and Romney 2012, etc. Relatively small numbers, yes, but still adding significantly to the non-conservative Trump 2016 vote.

 
tommyGunZ said:
How would you answer your question?  There is nothing I would love to see more than Trump get annihilated in 2020, ending up with < 30 million votes.  That would tell me that the conservative movement itself repudiated him. 
Click to expand...
That's a little bit of an unrealistic standard. The last major party candidate to come in with sub-30-million votes was George McGovern in 1972. Heck, Walter Mondale got boat-raced in 1984 and still had 37.5 million votes. Michael Dukakis was over 41 million four years later.

IMHO, if Trump were to fall back to about what W got in 2000 (50.4 million), that would be a pretty solid repudiation. Even with a big drop in turnout, that would put the Democratic candidate close to 70 million votes (cf. Hillary's 65.8 million in 2016) and a likely 40+ states in the electoral college.

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
We don't really know the full story, they may have felt that it would have hurt their relationship with the Trump administration if they had welcomed Omar and Tlaib.  They might have viewed this as the less bad of the two options.
Click to expand...
From IK's link...

Netanyahu is facing a general election next month and needs the support of far right-wing Israelis who hope to annex much of the West Bank, which Israel has controlled under military occupation for 52 years. 

The last thing he wants is the west bank front and center on news networks all over the world, before the election.

 
I updated the title. 

While Trump and Netanyahu are still the main culprits in this circus, Tliab is playing political games. Does she really care about visiting her family? Or is this just a stunt? 

Tliab and Omar were treated badly here, but that doesn’t make them heroes. They remain extreme radicals and I am pretty sure that if they ever somehow achieved real power in this country they would be probably worse than our current President. At least Trump’s main flaws are all about self-aggrandizement combined with simplistic bigotry. Tliab and Omar are ideologues, which are usually more dangerous. 

 
timschochet said:
I updated the title. 

While Trump and Netanyahu are still the main culprits in this circus, Tliab is playing political games. Does she really care about visiting her family? Or is this just a stunt? 

Tliab and Omar were treated badly here, but that doesn’t make them heroes. They remain extreme radicals and I am pretty sure that if they ever somehow achieved real power in this country they would be probably worse than our current President. At least Trump’s main flaws are all about self-aggrandizement combined with simplistic bigotry. Tliab and Omar are ideologues, which are usually more dangerous. 
Click to expand...
It's Tlaib, tim. You keep botching her name.  And I can't believe those last two sentences escaped you. That's spot on. 

 
timschochet said:
I updated the title. 

While Trump and Netanyahu are still the main culprits in this circus, Tliab is playing political games. Does she really care about visiting her family? Or is this just a stunt? 

Tliab and Omar were treated badly here, but that doesn’t make them heroes. They remain extreme radicals and I am pretty sure that if they ever somehow achieved real power in this country they would be probably worse than our current President. At least Trump’s main flaws are all about self-aggrandizement combined with simplistic bigotry. Tliab and Omar are ideologues, which are usually more dangerous. 
Click to expand...
They are not extreme radicals and I would cut off an arm to trade President Trump for President Omar.

 
Murph said:
Israel: You can only visit the territory we're illegally occupying if you don't mention that part.

Tlaib: No.

Tim: This is a stunt!
Click to expand...
Tlaib said she was wanted to see her elderly grandmother and she was willing to abide by any restrictions Israel imposed.  Israel agreed to her request.  And then she balked.

It's pretty obvious that Tlaib was hoping that Israel would say "no" so she could run with a victim narrative about the wicked Jews standing between a Palestenian woman and her beloved grandmother.  When Israel actually ruled in her favor, she was caught flat-footed.

 
rockaction said:
Here is where I lament the loss of the word "liberal" as applied to free market/conservative-leaning people. It was a great epithet hurled at us, and I'd appreciate it again. Until then, "classical liberal" it is. 
Click to expand...
I thought the current term was neo-liberal.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
Tlaib said she was wanted to see her elderly grandmother and she was willing to abide by any restrictions Israel imposed.  Israel agreed to her request.  And then she balked.

It's pretty obvious that Tlaib was hoping that Israel would say "no" so she could run with a victim narrative about the wicked Jews standing between a Palestenian woman and her beloved grandmother.  When Israel actually ruled in her favor, she was caught flat-footed.
Click to expand...
Probably the case but it sounded like they had restrictive terms that she was almost certain to violate further expanding this fiasco. Whoever said it was a multi-car accident is absolutely right, all sides are making huge mistakes at every turn.

But this is where the story needs to end. Imagine her going there, violating the terms, getting arrested and then have Trump refuse to help her.

 
Sweet J said:
My litmus test: when the republican president loses BassNBrew.
Click to expand...
That happened a while ago, like the Bush era. I just think this is so egregious that the Dems need to put principles before party. I had been in the vote him out camp and not waste time on impeachment, but this is over the top for me

 
timschochet said:
I updated the title. 

While Trump and Netanyahu are still the main culprits in this circus, Tliab is playing political games. Does she really care about visiting her family? Or is this just a stunt? 

Tliab and Omar were treated badly here, but that doesn’t make them heroes. They remain extreme radicals and I am pretty sure that if they ever somehow achieved real power in this country they would be probably worse than our current President. At least Trump’s main flaws are all about self-aggrandizement combined with simplistic bigotry. Tliab and Omar are ideologues, which are usually more dangerous. 
Click to expand...
Tlaib`s hatred of Israel and the Jews has been ingrained from birth. I have stated before Dearborn MI where Ford World Headquarters resides has more people from Palestine than anywhere in the country.   Try talking about Israel to people from Palestine and the venom and hate spewed is unreal.   Hate is not even a strong enough word to use as many would like to see Israel wiped off the map have zero remorse. And I am talking about educated people like Tlaib.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
It's pretty obvious that Tlaib was hoping that Israel would say "no" so she could run with a victim narrative about the wicked Jews standing between a Palestenian woman and her beloved grandmother.
Click to expand...
It's pretty obvious that you don't understand the difference between the state of Israel and Jewish people.  

 
Da Guru said:
Tlaib`s hatred of Israel and the Jews has been ingrained from birth. I have stated before Dearborn MI where Ford World Headquarters resides has more people from Palestine than anywhere in the country.   Try talking about Israel to people from Palestine and the venom and hate spewed is unreal.   Hate is not even a strong enough word to use as many would like to see Israel wiped off the map have zero remorse. And I am talking about educated people like Tlaib.
Click to expand...
So she is more the face of her district then the Democratic party  

 
Palestinians defend themselves against an illegal occupation with rocks and balloons, as their identity is bulldozed over.  They protest an illegal fence on territory that is legally theirs according to international law, and are murdered by Israeli snipers.  

Israel subjugates a defenseless population using the most advanced military hardware on the planet, sponsored by the most powerful country in the world.  They deny them electricity, rob them of farmland, bottleneck movement with military checkpoints to a brutal slog.  They spray Palestinian residential buildings with sewage to humiliate and dehumanize them.

People accept this as some sort of symmetrical playing field. But it's not.  Israel is committing a slow genocide against innocent people.  Yet for some reason, Israel is always centered on the moral highground, and Palestinian leadership is somehow to blame for the violent actions of the state with all the power and military might.  "Never again".  

 
Mile High said:
So she is more the face of her district then the Democratic party  
Click to expand...
It is just the fabric of who Tlaib is and I get it because that is how she was raised.  If you have even been around people from Palestine it is a far different feeling, it is a feeling of total resentment toward Israel and hatred is not a strong enough word to use. Just think about how some people in the Trump thread hate Trump, then magnify that by 100. There is no middle ground.

 
rockaction said:
ren, can you tell me what "right of return" means?
Click to expand...
My understanding is that ROR at the very least means allowing Palestinians to live in the same territories they were displaced from, with equal rights under law.  At most, it means additionally giving land back that was stolen from them.  I don't view the 2nd option as a realistic possibility.  

Personally I believe in a one-state solution where every citizen is treated equally, a stop to settlement expansions, and some kind of reparations for land taken from Palestinians.  

 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

GordonGekko
Did UC Berkeley Law School Enable "Jewish Free Zones" & Antisemitism With Pro Israel Speaker Bans? ( 10/2/22 11:12 PST)
Replies
10
Views
575
(HULK)
(HULK)
fatguyinalittlecoat
Presidential Succession ideas
Replies
44
Views
858
roadkill1292
roadkill1292
ignatiusjreilly
George Soros and anti-Semitism
2 3
Replies
120
Views
3K
parasaurolophus
parasaurolophus

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 2 (members: 0, guests: 2)
Top