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JamesonSkittles

Zeke planning a holdout

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8 hours ago, Ace08 said:

The running backs are correct in that they are severely underpaid during those first 5-6 years.

Well, maybe.  Zeke was given a $25m fully guaranteed contract before he ever took a handoff in an NFL game.  He could have been an NFL dud and the team would still be out all that money (which may end up being the case with Fournette who was given $27m fully guaranteed, and definitely was the case with Trent Richardson who got $20m fully guaranteed).  And if they play out the 5th year option, he gets another $9m, taking him to $34m total.  Tag him in 2021, that's another $13.5m (estimate).  Nearly $48m total in NFL money, not counting endorsements ain't bad - and that's Zeke's "worst case" from your above example. 

Are you suggesting that the guys who aren't worth their contract should keep all that money, and guys who do a bit better than those large contracts should all hold out for more?  That would be a no win proposition for the teams.  Either draft a crap player, or if you actually hit on the guy you have to redo the deal and pay him huge money, which you above said isn't a smart move.  What that will cause is no team will use a first or second round pick on a RB again. 

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On 7/15/2019 at 12:46 PM, Edgar said:

Who do we like as the handcuff?

After what we saw yesterday, you should like Morris and MAYBE Darius Jackson. Weber didn't look too sharp, but he's a young rookie, so he'll learn and get better.

Jackson seemed to dance and cut a lot in the backfield. The patience can help, but unlike Zeke, he doesn't accelerate or jump off the snap that well, something I LOOOOOOOVE to see in RBs. 

So I'd go with Morris, as he's more experienced and familiar with the system, plus he seems to be well-liked by the coaching staff. Jackson is on his 3rd stint with the team already and just doesn't seem to have it, despite what his combine/Pro Day metrics may tell you.

https://www.playerprofiler.com/nfl/darius-jackson/

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My draft is this weekend. Where are people taking this guy with this holdout still going on? Seems risky in the first 15 picks. 

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1 minute ago, Capella said:

My draft is this weekend. Where are people taking this guy with this holdout still going on? Seems risky in the first 15 picks. 

I think the risk is in not taking him in first 15 picks.  All this really amounts to is the % chance you think he’s going to hold out or this goes unresolved for any protracted length of time.  I put those odds really close to zero.  And if that’s the case, then the opportunity cost of passing on him (and giving the next owner in your draft the opportunity to get him) already puts you at a disadvantage in the first two rounds, to that owner especially.

if you think the circumstances surrounding the holdout point to a Bell type situation, then he’s undraftable, forget about pick 15.

I’d take him anywhere in the first round if I can and ride out the nerves, which are probably unwarranted in the end.

 

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2 minutes ago, cobalt_27 said:

I think the risk is in not taking him in first 15 picks.  All this really amounts to is the % chance you think he’s going to hold out or this goes unresolved for any protracted length of time.  I put those odds really close to zero.  And if that’s the case, then the opportunity cost of passing on him (and giving the next owner in your draft the opportunity to get him) already puts you at a disadvantage in the first two rounds, to that owner especially.

if you think the circumstances surrounding the holdout point to a Bell type situation, then he’s undraftable, forget about pick 15.

I’d take him anywhere in the first round if I can and ride out the nerves, which are probably unwarranted in the end.

 

My league is pretty risk adverse. It wouldn’t make sense for me to take him in round 1 but I am pretty certain he will be there in 2. 

I don’t think this is a Leveon but seems like he may miss a few.  

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40 minutes ago, Capella said:

I don’t think this is a Leveon 

true, zeke will show up week 10

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6 hours ago, Soulfly3 said:

true, zeke will show up week 10

Hasn't the date to have a league year toll on his contract happened already?  There is no reason for him to do any particular thing as far as when or if he comes back as no matter when he comes back he is not getting credit for this year.  Bell was a FA and Zeke is under contract so the rules are different if I remember right.  I think this in Jerry's court to buckle if he wants to try to win it all this year at his age.  Zeke has a lot of control as he is already past the time to get credit for the league year so it is a matter of how much money he loses vs how much an extension gains him....

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, NightStalkers said:

Hasn't the date to have a league year toll on his contract happened already?  

Not as I understand it.  

Also "tolling" means his contract carries to next year if he doesn't accrue a season.

tolling <> credit/accrual

Edited by matuski

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, NightStalkers said:

Hasn't the date to have a league year toll on his contract happened already?  

Accruing a season toward free agency is different than getting credit for a season to prevent it from tolling:

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/08/06/as-expected-august-6-deadline-meant-nothing-to-ezekiel-elliott/

Quote

 

The next question is whether Elliott would return in time to get credit for this year of his contract. Under the Joey Galloway ruling, Elliott would need to be available for the final eight games of the year in order to ensure that he’d get credit for the contract year. Given the availability of a roster exemption that could last as long as three weeks, and in light of the presence of a Week Eight bye, Elliott would need to return after Week Six in order to ensure that he’d be available for the final eight games of the season, if the Cowboys use the full roster exemption.

If Elliott waits beyond Week Seven, he runs the risk of an arbitrator ruling that he wasn’t on the roster long enough to get credit for the contract year. Although Elliott could still win, the safest approach would be to show up after Week Six — if he’s intent on getting credit for the contract year and ensuring that 2020 will be the final year of his rookie contract.

 

 

Edited by Don Hutson
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On 7/20/2019 at 8:46 AM, BoltBacker said:

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that's what he SHOULD do. I'm just saying that if a player wanted to accrue a season while still avoiding taking more physical abuse before he gets his contract extension.

I am glad Gurley got his money, but boy that was close. About 7 months after that extension how much of that contract do you think he could get? There are only about 3-4 RB's that I would give that type of money to and Zeke is one of them. I don't blame him for making decisions that he thinks best serve his future. Normally, I'm a "play out the contract you negotiated" type of guy. But that's the thing, if you are on your rookie deal you didn't REALLY negotiate the $ you are playing for. The people that signed the CBA did because now rookie contracts are more or less slotted. The only part that gets negotiated is how that money is structured and whether or not the team is on the hook at the end of it if things go sideways. Zeke has more or less had a contract assigned to him that he had very little part in negotiating. A RB's "prime" is so short they really get completely jobbed in the current CBA. By the time they are allowed to hit TRUE FA the team can look back and tell them, "Well, yeah you have played great for the past five years BUT now you have all this mileage and you probably only have a year or two before the decline starts.... blah, blah, blah" and the team has a whole new crop of young RB's out of college that will be slotted into unfair contracts as well that THEY can't really negotiate. The whole system is set up against RB's getting paid as the best part of their career is often in the first 5 years. A quality QB can start into(and sometimes past) his mid-30's. Guys like Peterson and Gore are maybe 1-100? Maybe 1-1000? More?

None of this is the Cowboys fault, BTW. I'm just saying that I can empathize with the situation that the true elite RB's are in. A guy like Barkley is being robbed of his true value for YEARS and who knows if he makes it 5 years without a major injury.

What IS the Cowboys fault is investing such a high draft pick in him. If you hold that RB's aren't worth the high $$ amount (say ~8-10% of the cap), then it's odd to say they're also worth spending the #4 overall pick on. 

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On 7/19/2019 at 10:12 PM, STEADYMOBBIN 22 said:

 

Only a loser scumbag pretends to get hurt. If he wants a contract he should stand firm but he shouldn't be a ##### about it. 

I have been saying this is all BS from the start. Saying Zeke should absolutely get a new contract is absurd. He has been a stud and worthy of his first round selection and the nearly 25 million dollar fully guaranteed contract that came with it. He also has his own parking spot next to Roger Goodell's. He's missed 6 games and the cloud that followed the team that season. Did Jerry pay for those lawyers to fight that battle?

I don't believe he will hold out. I do believe he will get an extension. When that contract runs out he will either take a team friendly deal to stay or take his talents to the Raiders. 

Loser scumbag?  That’s a bit over-dramatic, isn’t it?

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41 minutes ago, babydemon90 said:

What IS the Cowboys fault is investing such a high draft pick in him. If you hold that RB's aren't worth the high $$ amount (say ~8-10% of the cap), then it's odd to say they're also worth spending the #4 overall pick on. 

????

But with the current CBA you aren't paying a high amount of $$, relatively speaking. If you are convinced that you can get an all-pro(or at least a pro-bowl) player and a cost controlled price then it makes all the sense in the world to me to use the #4 pick on that player.

Keep in mind that you are using the #4 pick for a pro-bowl player on an artificially low contract AND you get a 3rd round pick at the end of the process for you trouble when he goes and gets his "Jet contract" somewhere else.

That's where the RB position is unique compared to a QB, or a TE, etc. Most RB's are playing closer to their highest level during their first season.

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26 minutes ago, Bayhawks said:

Loser scumbag?  That’s a bit over-dramatic, isn’t it?

Probably but as a rule I don’t like people who pretend to do anything. 

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Belly Boy is back in The DFW :popcorn: 

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3 minutes ago, [icon] said:

Belly Boy is back in The DFW :popcorn: 

Potential good news. A deal isn't necessarily imminent but there is no way he doesn't get a new contract. 

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Zeke should pull a Bell if he doesn't land a contract bigger than Girleys.  

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8 minutes ago, beef said:

Zeke should pull a Bell if he doesn't land a contract bigger than Girleys.  

Can he?  Doesn't he need to accrue a season to not be right where he is right now at the start of next year? 

I don't think he has the same leverage if he can't really sit out and still get to FA at the same time. 

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16 minutes ago, kittenmittens said:

Can he?  Doesn't he need to accrue a season to not be right where he is right now at the start of next year? 

I don't think he has the same leverage if he can't really sit out and still get to FA at the same time. 

Zeke doesn't care if he is a RFA and he shouldn't as Dallas would just franchise him anyway.  He only cares about a contract extension.  So this is nothing like the Bell situation.  He can sit out all year and it won't affect him he is either playing under a new contract or not playing it's that simple.

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6 minutes ago, Dez said:

Zeke doesn't care if he is a RFA and he shouldn't as Dallas would just franchise him anyway.  He only cares about a contract extension.  So this is nothing like the Bell situation.  He can sit out all year and it won't affect him he is either playing under a new contract or not playing it's that simple.

The only thing that makes sense in this post is that it's nothing like the Bell situation. 

Sitting out the entire year wouldn't affect him?  What's he going to do if he doesn't get an extension the next year, sit out again?  That would definitely affect his career earnings. 

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44 minutes ago, beef said:

Zeke should pull a Bell if he doesn't land a contract bigger than Girleys.  

Zeke doesn't have that option.  

He is under contract.

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Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, kittenmittens said:

The only thing that makes sense in this post is that it's nothing like the Bell situation. 

Sitting out the entire year wouldn't affect him?  What's he going to do if he doesn't get an extension the next year, sit out again?  That would definitely affect his career earnings. 

I don't understand why people are not getting it.  Zeke is going to not play football again until he signs an extension.  It's that simple.

He already has a contact offer on the table it just about how much is he going to get and when he will sign it.

He already said he isn't playing under his current deal. 

He will never play under his current deal he will be signing an extension at some point and that is when he will play.

Is this that hard to understand ? 

Edited by Dez

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Dez said:

I don't understand why people are not getting it.  Zeke is going to not play football again until he signs an extension.  It's that simple.

He already has a contact offer on the table it just about how much is he going to get and when he will sign it.

He already said he isn't playing under his current deal. 

He will never play under his current deal he will be signing an extension at some point and that is when he will play.

Is this that hard to understand ? 

That is Zeke's only possible leverage.. a threat.  An empty threat if this negotiation turns ugly.

If push comes to shove the Cowboys have the leverage here.  Absolute binding leverage.

Pretty easy to understand.

 

Edited by matuski
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14 minutes ago, matuski said:

That is Zeke's only possible leverage.. a threat.  An empty threat if this negotiation turns ugly.

If push comes to shove the Cowboys have the leverage here.  Absolute binding leverage.

Pretty easy to understand.

 

I give up no coming to this thread again.  It is clear people here do not understand that there is zero chance Zeke plays without a new deal.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Dez said:

I give up no coming to this thread again.  It is clear people here do not understand that there is zero chance Zeke plays without a new deal.

Which has nothing to do with what i posted. :confused:

I don't think you understand the word understand.

Edited by matuski
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7 minutes ago, Dez said:

I give up no coming to this thread again.  It is clear people here do not understand that there is zero chance Zeke plays without a new deal.

He can’t really sit out because he’s under contract and the contract year doesn’t toll if he misses more than half the season. So he would need to retire if the Cowboys held the line and never gave him that new deal. Bell was a free agent because he never signed his tag. The only thing the Steelers could have done is franchise tag him again.

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Posted (edited)

Cowboys are a 9-7 team at best anyway so it’s not like it really matters if Zeke plays or not. Jerry knows that. 

Edited by [icon]

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4 hours ago, Dez said:

I don't understand why people are not getting it.  Zeke is going to not play football again until he signs an extension.  It's that simple.

He already has a contact offer on the table it just about how much is he going to get and when he will sign it.

He already said he isn't playing under his current deal. 

He will never play under his current deal he will be signing an extension at some point and that is when he will play.

Is this that hard to understand ? 

Agree with this.  Not that the Cowboys don’t have leverage...they in fact have millions of dollars of leverage.  But the point is the same, he won’t play until he signs an extension and the only question is when he and Cowboys agree on the figure.  

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Just now, [icon] said:

Cowboys are a 9-7 team anyway so it’s not like it really matters if Zeke plays or not. Jerry knows that. 

No way.  They are a 7 win team at best without him.  Zeke won’t take them to the playoffs by himself but they don’t get to the playoffs without him. And Jerry definitely knows that. 

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, cobalt_27 said:

Agree with this.  Not that the Cowboys don’t have leverage...they in fact have millions of dollars of leverage.  But the point is the same, he won’t play until he signs an extension and the only question is when he and Cowboys agree on the figure.  

If the interest wasn't mutual, the Cowboys would have ALL (every bit of it) the leverage.

He is under contract.

At that point his option would be to retire, or play out his contract.  Which isn't leverage.

Having said that - the Cowboys do seem to have a mutual interest in signing him to more $.  Which makes leverage moot.

Edited by matuski
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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, matuski said:

If the interest wasn't mutual, the Cowboys would have ALL (every bit of it) the leverage.

He is under contract.

At that point his option would be to retire, or play out his contract.  Which isn't leverage.

Having said that - the Cowboys do seem to have a mutual interest in signing him to more $.  Which makes leverage moot.

All that is true.  And it assumes Cowboys are indifferent and are just fine letting it ride without him. 

He’s got leverage.  Both of them do. 

ETA I honestly missed your last paragraph.  I agree with the moot leverage point.  They both have a vested interest in getting something done. Neither has the other over a barrel. 

Edited by cobalt_27

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, cobalt_27 said:

All that is true.  And it assumes Cowboys are indifferent and are just fine letting it ride without him. 

He’s got leverage.  Both of them do. 

I will concede a 95-5% split.

Zeke's only leverage is his threat to leave football.  Which nobody is buying.

Assuming he won't retire, he can only move forward on whatever terms the Cowboys agree to.

Edited by matuski

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1 minute ago, matuski said:

I will concede a 95-5% split.

Zeke's only leverage is his threat to leave football.  Which nobody is buying.

His other leverage is holding out. Which is a pain in the ### to a team that wants to win a SB ring. It’s not insignificant. 

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11 minutes ago, cobalt_27 said:

No way.  They are a 7 win team at best without him.  Zeke won’t take them to the playoffs by himself but they don’t get to the playoffs without him. And Jerry definitely knows that. 

:lol: at the cowboys making the playoffs this year 

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2 minutes ago, [icon] said:

:lol: at the cowboys making the playoffs this year 

The point isn’t the validity or expected % chance of this.  It’s that Jerry genuinely perceives they have a good chance. 

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, [icon] said:

:lol: at the cowboys making the playoffs this year 

Why wouldn’t they have a chance. They have a strong defensive pass rush and good young linebackers, and if Zeke signs they have a great running game and a good passing attack with Cooper there all offseason.

Plus if they split with Philly their division record should be 5-1 or 4-2. Giants and Washington are a mess.

Vegas has their win total at 9 so it seems they think they’ll be a playoff contender at least.

Edited by Dr. Octopus
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Zeke will show up as late as he can and still accrue a season under the CBA.  IMO.  

ANyone know how many games in that is?  I think it is 8, plus 2 weeks to get ready to play....He comes back week 10? 

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30 minutes ago, [icon] said:

:lol: at the cowboys making the playoffs this year 

This seems like a weird fishing trip

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Aren't the Cowboys legitimate shots to make the playoffs if they extend and sign their core?

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Odds to win Super Bowl. prob wouldn't bet on the cowboys, or the browns for that matter, but here they are:

New England Patriots 6-1
Kansas City Chiefs 6-1
Los Angeles Rams 10-1
New Orleans Saints 10-1
Indianapolis Colts 14-1
Chicago Bears 14-1
Philadelphia Eagles 14-1
Green Bay Packers 14-1
Los Angeles Chargers 16-1 
Cleveland Browns 20-1  
Pittsburgh Steelers 20-1
Dallas Cowboys 20-1

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Tool said:

Odds to win Super Bowl. prob wouldn't bet on the cowboys, or the browns for that matter, but here they are:

New England Patriots 6-1
Kansas City Chiefs 6-1
Los Angeles Rams 10-1
New Orleans Saints 10-1
Indianapolis Colts 14-1
Chicago Bears 14-1
Philadelphia Eagles 14-1
Green Bay Packers 14-1
Los Angeles Chargers 16-1 
Cleveland Browns 20-1  
Pittsburgh Steelers 20-1
Dallas Cowboys 20-1

Cowboys odds are always inflated due to huge homer fanbase, not unlike the Yankees. Heavy action no matter the line so it is almost always inflated. 

Edited by [icon]

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3 minutes ago, [icon] said:

Cowboys odds are always inflated due to huge homer fanbase, not unlike the Yankees. Heavy action no matter the line so it is almost always inflated. 

Prob true, but in any case they have a decent shot at making the playoffs.

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Complete stupidity if they give in to this clown. I mean really,  2 years left & off the field issues. Steelers have already proven rbs are a dime a dozen.

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36 minutes ago, irish eyes said:

Complete stupidity if they give in to this clown. I mean really,  2 years left & off the field issues. Steelers have already proven rbs are a dime a dozen.

Jury is still out on that one.  Not looking too great right now against KC.

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4 minutes ago, Hairy Snowman said:

Jury is still out on that one.  Not looking too great right now against KC.

Were you sleeping during the 2018 season?

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1 hour ago, [icon] said:

:lol: at the cowboys making the playoffs this year 

Would you like to put money where your mouth is? 

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, STEADYMOBBIN 22 said:

Would you like to put money where your mouth is? 

I did. Got -120 at MyBookie. 

Future NFCE Champs, the Eagles are +170 to miss, if anyone was wondering. 

Edited by [icon]

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, irish eyes said:

Complete stupidity if they give in to this clown. I mean really,  2 years left & off the field issues. Steelers have already proven rbs are a dime a dozen.

They missed the playoffs by a game....

Edited by matuski

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, irish eyes said:

Were you sleeping during the 2018 season?

You mean where they really could have used a playmaker at the end of the season to make the playoffs?

The Steelers failed to crack 75 yards rushing in 7 of their last 8 games... crumbling down the stretch.

Edited by matuski

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