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What does it mean to hate America? What are American values? (1 Viewer)

timschochet

Footballguy
Personally I find this to be a more vital and interesting question within the context of the current political discussion than what is racist. President Trump has stated several times the last few days that the 4 congresswomen he is targeting don’t have American values and hate America. What does he mean by this? What does it mean to hate America? And what are American values? 

 
The abiding value of America is that any page can be turned. That we are not essentially rule-bound is the bane & boon of us for others.

 
Doing a Google search, the first list of "American Values" that popped up is:

  • Independence
  • Privacy
  • Directness
  • Equality
  • Informality
  • Competition
  • Time and efficiency
  • Consumerism
2nd Google hit:

  • Liberty
  • Self-government
  • Equality
  • Individualism
  • Diversity
  • Unity
Regarding the 4 congresswomen in question, can someone say in what way they have demonstrated they do not value these things? 

 
Doing a Google search, the first list of "American Values" that popped up is:

  • Independence
  • Privacy
  • Directness
  • Equality
  • Informality
  • Competition
  • Time and efficiency
  • Consumerism
2nd Google hit:

  • Liberty
  • Self-government
  • Equality
  • Individualism
  • Diversity
  • Unity
Regarding the 4 congresswomen in question, can someone say in what way they have demonstrated they do not value these things? 
I dont see anything about hot dogs or apple pie..Therefore this is a dumb list.

 
Doing a Google search, the first list of "American Values" that popped up is:

  • Independence
  • Privacy
  • Directness
  • Equality
  • Informality
  • Competition
  • Time and efficiency
  • Consumerism
2nd Google hit:

  • Liberty
  • Self-government
  • Equality
  • Individualism
  • Diversity
  • Unity
Regarding the 4 congresswomen in question, can someone say in what way they have demonstrated they do not value these things? 
I'd say the proposed "Green New Deal" and it's economic outcomes are a direct attack on America's sense of Independence, free will and competitiveness.

 
  • Unity
Regarding the 4 congresswomen in question, can someone say in what way they have demonstrated they do not value these things? 
Sure, Ayanna Pressley recently gave a speech at Netroots Nation where she divided Americans by race, creed, or sexuality; suggested that Americans should look out for their respective identity group, and anyone who doesn’t agree with her call to action doesn’t need to show up.

It’s a message of unity for certain people with a certain worldview, but it’s not a message of universal unity.  

Then again, a message of universal unity is usually a trite cliche that will never manifest itself in a nation as populous, diverse, and polarized as the USA.

 
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Are you saying those that like hot dogs and apple pie are mediocre?   That's pretty judgey dont you think?
Jesus. I'm saying apple pie (maybe 5th or 6th best kind of pie) and hot dogs (maybe 5th or 6th best kind of meat to put on a bun) are mediocre.

I tend to avoid sweeping generalizations of large groups of peopel.

 
Jesus. I'm saying apple pie (maybe 5th or 6th best kind of pie) and hot dogs (maybe 5th or 6th best kind of meat to put on a bun) are mediocre.

I tend to avoid sweeping generalizations of large groups of peopel.
Oh ok good.  Cause that's pretty lousy to say that if you like apple pie and hot dogs you are mediocre--however you cant be a American cant not like those.  It's in the constitution

I kinda agree about the apple pie ranking however.   I would put cherry probably #1, maybe blueberry higher than Apple.  Chocolate cream  Yummmmm...

 
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Jesus. I'm saying apple pie (maybe 5th or 6th best kind of pie) and hot dogs (maybe 5th or 6th best kind of meat to put on a bun) are mediocre.

I tend to avoid sweeping generalizations of large groups of peopel.
If you have them in your top 10 clearly you don't hate them so what's the point?

 
Personally I find this to be a more vital and interesting question within the context of the current political discussion than what is racist. President Trump has stated several times the last few days that the 4 congresswomen he is targeting don’t have American values and hate America. What does he mean by this? What does it mean to hate America? And what are American values? 
Much like pornography, I know it when I see it.

 
I'd say the proposed "Green New Deal" and it's economic outcomes are a direct attack on America's sense of Independence, free will and competitiveness.
Would you say the same about Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security and Obamacare? 

 
Oh ok good.  Cause that's pretty lousy to say that if you like apple pie and hot dogs you are mediocre.

I kinda agree about the apple pie ranking however.   I would put cherry probably #1, maybe blueberry higher than Apple.  Chocolate cream  Yummmmm...
Nothing beats Olallieberry Pie.

 
Sure, Ayanna Pressley recently gave a speech at Netroots Nation where she divided Americans by race, suggested that Americans should look out for their race, and anyone who doesn’t agree with her call to action doesn’t need to show up.

It’s a message of unity for certain people with a certain worldview, but it’s not a message of universal unity.  

Then again, a message of universal unity is usually a trite cliche that will never manifest itself in a nation as populous, diverse, and polarized as the USA.
Her message was certainly one that I disagree with. But is it anti-American? 

 
Fair enough. Do you see it here? 
I haven't followed these congresswomen (nor whatever Trump said) close enough to say, but that was really low hanging fruit you put out there. If "racist" is a squishy term used in the eye of the beholder, then this certainly is too. 

 
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brown face/brown voice, black face/black voice, Muslim face/Muslim voice, seems divisive enough and un American 
Certainly divisive. But is divisiveness anti-American? 

It’s a little unclear to me what she meant, but my strong guess is that she meant that a “black voice” is one who takes an extreme left or radical line on African American issues without compromise. That would seem to be in keeping with her politics. And the same for the other voices. 

But I don’t believe that anyone could make a reasonable argument, in lieu of our history, that extremism or radicalism are anti-American values. 

 
I haven't followed these congresswomen (nor whatever Trump said) close enough to say, but that was really low hanging fruit you put out there. If "racist" is a squishy term used in the eye of the beholder, then this certainly is too. 
I don’t think racist is that squishy a term- it’s not easily defined but you know it when you see it- that was my argument in that thread. 

But American values really IS a squishy term. I don’t think that you know it when you see it here. In fact it’s very arguable and much more subjective. 

For example, I personally find Donald Trump to be unamerican in terms of his views about immigration and patriotism. But that is very subjective on my part. Unlike with racism, I don’t believe my views on that matter represent an objective truth. 

 
Her message was certainly one that I disagree with. But is it anti-American? 
No, but if we’re claiming that there are certain American values and list “unity” as one of those values then Pressley’s speech would suggest that she doesn’t hold that value in the same sense that most people do.

As I said, though, many people hold that value in theory, but so few hold it in practice for it to be considered a true American value. Extending that further, the USA is now so populous, diverse, and polarized that are there many shared values that we can say define America?

 
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Personally I find this to be a more vital and interesting question within the context of the current political discussion than what is racist. President Trump has stated several times the last few days that the 4 congresswomen he is targeting don’t have American values and hate America. What does he mean by this? What does it mean to hate America? And what are American values? 
I am guessing that many Trump supporters feel that the US was founded on Judeo-Christian values.  If you don't agree with them then you cannot be a good American.  One of my best friends showed me an email that his 83 year old father passed along that said Muslims were enemies of the USA because of this. 

 
No, but if we’re claiming that there are certain American values and then list “unity” as one of those values then Pressley’s speech would suggest that she doesn’t hold that value.  

As I said, though, many people hold that value in theory, but so few hold it in practice for it to be considered a true American value. Extending that further, the USA is now so populous, diverse, and polarized that are there many shared values that we can say define America?
I can’t get behind unity as an American value. As a nation we’ve been unified twice in our history: right after Pearl Harbor and right after 9/11. And in each case not for very long before we started griping with each other again. 

But- are there shared values that most Americans have? I think there are. I don’t have a list but off the top of my head: 

1. Freedom of speech. 

2. Belief in the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the rule of law. 

3. The concept of America as the “city on the hill”, a new place, a refuge from the rest of the world where immigrants are generally welcome and where all are equal before the law. 

4. A general belief in the virtues of capitalism- that if you work hard enough and smart enough you can do well for yourself, at least financially, no matter what your background is. 

5. A rather vague and undefined libertarian belief that if you’re not harming anybody else the government should leave you alone. 

I think most Americans, including most newcomers to America, generally believe in these principles. 

 
I am guessing that many Trump supporters feel that the US was founded on Judeo-Christian values.  If you don't agree with them then you cannot be a good American.  One of my best friends showed me an email that his 83 year old father passed along that said Muslims were enemies of the USA because of this. 
Even if we made that assertion it is quite easy to argue that Muslims share all of the essential Judeo-Christian values. 

 
But- are there shared values that most Americans have? I think there are. I don’t have a list but off the top of my head: 

1. Freedom of speech. 

2. Belief in the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the rule of law. 

3. The concept of America as the “city on the hill”, a new place, a refuge from the rest of the world where immigrants are generally welcome and where all are equal before the law. 

4. A general belief in the virtues of capitalism- that if you work hard enough and smart enough you can do well for yourself, at least financially, no matter what your background is. 

5. A rather vague and undefined libertarian belief that if you’re not harming anybody else the government should leave you alone. 
So let’s take my 5 principles and look at AOC, the best known of the “squad”. I would argue that she clearly believes in 1, 2, 3 and 5. Obviously she doesn’t believe in 4. Most conservatives believe in 4 without reservation. Someone like myself would believe in 4 with some reservations, particularly dealing with racial inequities. 

But AOC is not a conservative or liberal; she is a radical leftist. She does not believe, from what I can gather, in capitalism at all. She desires a change from our capitalist system to a socialist one. I think we can define this attitude as un-American. 

But does that mean that we can define HER as someone who hates America? Especially since she appears to embrace the other 4 principles? I would argue no. We can’t do it. She’s still largely pro-American values. 

 
So let’s take my 5 principles and look at AOC, the best known of the “squad”. I would argue that she clearly believes in 1, 2, 3 and 5. Obviously she doesn’t believe in 4. Most conservatives believe in 4 without reservation. Someone like myself would believe in 4 with some reservations, particularly dealing with racial inequities. 

But AOC is not a conservative or liberal; she is a radical leftist. She does not believe, from what I can gather, in capitalism at all. She desires a change from our capitalist system to a socialist one. I think we can define this attitude as un-American. 

But does that mean that we can define HER as someone who hates America? Especially since she appears to embrace the other 4 principles? I would argue no. We can’t do it. She’s still largely pro-American values. 
That’s comforting.  For a while there I thought you might disagree with yourself.

 
I can’t get behind unity as an American value. As a nation we’ve been unified twice in our history: right after Pearl Harbor and right after 9/11. And in each case not for very long before we started griping with each other again. 

But- are there shared values that most Americans have? I think there are. I don’t have a list but off the top of my head: 

1. Freedom of speech. 

2. Belief in the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the rule of law. 

3. The concept of America as the “city on the hill”, a new place, a refuge from the rest of the world where immigrants are generally welcome and where all are equal before the law. 

4. A general belief in the virtues of capitalism- that if you work hard enough and smart enough you can do well for yourself, at least financially, no matter what your background is. 

5. A rather vague and undefined libertarian belief that if you’re not harming anybody else the government should leave you alone. 

I think most Americans, including most newcomers to America, generally believe in these principles. 
Your list supports my point that there are no shared universal values.

Going through each point:

1.  The last few years have been riddled with battles over what speech is allowable on college campuses and online.  Studies have shown that younger generations are not holding free speech in as high regard as older generations if they consider that speech offensive.

2. Americans don’t place the same value on the Constitution.  Some believe it’s an invalid document from the start because it disenfranchised non-whites.  Some think the Electoral College outlined in the Constitution must be abolished.  Some people think the Constitution is a living document.  Some think it’s a dormant, clearly defined set of rules.  Some think the 2nd Amendment applies only to militias. Others think it applies to individuals. And so on, and so on.

3.  Some people believe in American exceptionalism, others do not.  Some people believe America should take in an endless supply of migrants, others do not.

4. Studies show a growing number of Americans stating a preference for socialism over capitalism.  Plenty of Americans don’t believe that there’s the social mobility today for most Americans to live the American Dream.

5. We’re seeing more Americans strike out against other Americans online, verbally, and even physically for simply holding differing beliefs, and encouraging businesses and the government t to do the same. That’s not a Libertarian belief that you should be left alone if you’re not actively harming someone.

So while most Americans may hold the values you listed, I don’t think they’re anywhere close to being universal.  More like just the majority position in most instances.

 
So let’s take my 5 principles and look at AOC, the best known of the “squad”. I would argue that she clearly believes in 1, 2, 3 and 5. Obviously she doesn’t believe in 4. Most conservatives believe in 4 without reservation. Someone like myself would believe in 4 with some reservations, particularly dealing with racial inequities. 

But AOC is not a conservative or liberal; she is a radical leftist. She does not believe, from what I can gather, in capitalism at all. She desires a change from our capitalist system to a socialist one. I think we can define this attitude as un-American. 

But does that mean that we can define HER as someone who hates America? Especially since she appears to embrace the other 4 principles? I would argue no. We can’t do it. She’s still largely pro-American values. 
I think she believes 4 should be the case but, for various reasons, government needs to do more to allow that to happen for everyone.

 
  • Separation of church and state / freedom of religion
  • Treating all people as created equal with the Inalienable right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness
  • Honoring the lives of the generation who sacrificed to protect the world from facism.
  • Rejection of tyranny & autocracy
  • Freedom of speech and the free press
 
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timschochet said:
I can’t get behind unity as an American value. As a nation we’ve been unified twice in our history: right after Pearl Harbor and right after 9/11. And in each case not for very long before we started griping with each other again. 

But- are there shared values that most Americans have? I think there are. I don’t have a list but off the top of my head: 

1. Freedom of speech. 

2. Belief in the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the rule of law. 

3. The concept of America as the “city on the hill”, a new place, a refuge from the rest of the world where immigrants are generally welcome and where all are equal before the law. 

4. A general belief in the virtues of capitalism- that if you work hard enough and smart enough you can do well for yourself, at least financially, no matter what your background is. 

5. A rather vague and undefined libertarian belief that if you’re not harming anybody else the government should leave you alone. 

I think most Americans, including most newcomers to America, generally believe in these principles. 
I think people in all liberal democracies believe in your list of principles.   

 
I would like to also subject that American values would involve whole-throated discard of racist philosophy.  I think we all should be mindful of the impact of the Civil War and we know celebrate the achievements of the civil rights movement which wasn't really mainstream or popular at the time.  You can wrap this up with the "All men are created equal" but we also know that wasn't necessarily exclusive of indentured servants or outright slavery at the time. 

 

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