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Jayrod

So how can we actually defeat Trump in 2020?

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13 minutes ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

I’m not sure I agree with the main thrust of this argument, but it’s a worthwhile perspective to consider:

https://twitter.com/timjacobwise/status/1152930670093787141

It’s by someone who worked against the David Duke political campaigns of the 1990s, and lessons from that experience that may apply to opposing Trump in 2020.

This was a good read. I agree with a lot of it although I think there are ways to attack Trump's race-baiting without crying "Racist!" from every mountain top.

This is the part that stuck out for me: "What the left never understands is: we need to stop approaching elections like the god####ed debate team, and start approaching it like the right does, like the cheerleading squad...

The right knows psychology and we know public policy and sociology...great. The latter does not win elections..."

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They could go full Charlie Daniels, Easy Rider, and start accusing him of insane conspiracy theories. Every time a democrat speaks they should declare Trump has been working secretly with Obama, Black Panthers and the Muslim Brotherhood to divide the country so they could take over. Repeat it. Over and over. When he denies it claim he's lying and you have proof but it's classified so you can't release it.  This, sadly, would probably work. 

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13 minutes ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:
Quote

Four progressive democrats known as “the Squad” have revealed the source of their fierce moniker – they gave it to themselves at a photo shoot.

“Someone said, ‘Oh you should do a hashtag or something #squadgoals’ and then it morphed into whole other thing,” Congress member Ayanna Pressleytold CBS This Morning on Wednesday.

Thanks, I honestly don't know - did this predate Trump's use of the term?

Trump's first known use of the phrase "The Squad" was July 16th. Maureen Dowd used the phrase in a column on July 6th, and FoxNews used it on July 11th.

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46 minutes ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

I’m not sure I agree with the main thrust of this argument, but it’s a worthwhile perspective to consider:

https://twitter.com/timjacobwise/status/1152930670093787141

It’s by someone who worked against the David Duke political campaigns of the 1990s, and lessons from that experience that may apply to opposing Trump in 2020.

That thread is the truth. And it’s exactly what the Democrats should be using as a strategy guide. 

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44 minutes ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

It's been a while since I said it but I've said it often - these conversations with normal Republicans conservatives about what Trump is doing is very reminiscent of Duke in his campaigns here.

Abso-freaking-lutely.  I agree with you every time you say it. 

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Truth bomb from Maurile’s link

 People who say the Dems should ignore Trump's race baiting because its some genius political strategy calculated to distract us, are idiots. He is no genius. And if you downplay it you NORMALIZE him. If you make this about policy, you NORMALIZE him. He is a racist...

He is a white nationalist. He is an authoritarian. He and his cult are a threat to the future of the nation and world because of their hatreds. His movement betrays the country's promise. THAT is the message that will drive turnout. Not debates over marginal tax rates...

Or how we are going to fund schools...And anyone who says we should ignore the race baiting to talk more about Mueller and Russia is an even bigger fool...that's like talking about Duke and late tax payments or other corruptions...it might all be true but is not the point...

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2 hours ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

I’m not sure I agree with the main thrust of this argument, but it’s a worthwhile perspective to consider:

https://twitter.com/timjacobwise/status/1152930670093787141

It’s by someone who worked against the David Duke political campaigns of the 1990s, and lessons from that experience that may apply to opposing Trump in 2020.

We have a recent example of a moderate trying to beat Trump based on policy, treating him with kid gloves. I've got no background or experience in this stuff, but the answer seems so obvious  to me. He will get the same support, or even more than last time.  Forget about his supporters, or any "undecideds" (for me, hard to fathom). All the democrats have to do is energize the public and get the vote out. 

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5 hours ago, CletiusMaximus said:

We have a recent example of a moderate trying to beat Trump based on policy, treating him with kid gloves. I've got no background or experience in this stuff, but the answer seems so obvious  to me. He will get the same support, or even more than last time.  Forget about his supporters, or any "undecideds" (for me, hard to fathom). All the democrats have to do is energize the public and get the vote out. 

Yeah, Clinton had to treat him as normal because the Clintons and Trumps were friends.  And she lost as a result. 

Anyone else who does that against him is a fool. 

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On 7/20/2019 at 6:25 PM, TripItUp said:

My advice to the liberals as an independent 

 

1.  Stop using the word “socialism”

2.  Stop thinking of new ways to spend taxpayer money(free college)

3.  Attack healthcare by cutting costs, not by declaring “healthcare is a right “

4.  Apologize for Russian investigation and move on to something that matters 

5.  Distance the party from AOC and other wackjob taqueria waitresses with zero meaningful real life experiences 

6. Understand that most Americans are not pleased with our current unbridled immigration policy

7.  Stay away from supporting career politician candidates that are more interested in their careers than the American middle class 

 

of course, the Democrats are incapable of most of these....just answering the question posed in the title.  :shrug:

 

Just remember when you lose in 2020...I gave you the keys to the kingdom.

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On 7/20/2019 at 2:34 PM, timschochet said:

Saying you’re going to give healthcare to undocumented immigrants is very unpopular with the American public. But the Democrats are not going to lose the election over this. There is not a single person out there who is going to say, “well damn I was going to vote Democrat but now that they want to give illegals healthcare I’ve gotta go with Trump instead.” It’s a laughable idea (which may be the reason for your emoticon?) 

On the other hand, supporting Medicare for All may very well cause some independents to choose Trump. 

falsehood

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10 hours ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

I’m not sure I agree with the main thrust of this argument, but it’s a worthwhile perspective to consider:

https://twitter.com/timjacobwise/status/1152930670093787141

It’s by someone who worked against the David Duke political campaigns of the 1990s, about lessons from that experience that may apply to opposing Trump in 2020.

Huge fan of Tim.  I remember his essay / blog post that got him on the map after Columbine.  

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On ‎7‎/‎19‎/‎2019 at 1:30 PM, timschochet said:

Not sure where you’re getting your history. FDR, Truman, Kennedy and Obama were exactly that way. Not a single one of them ran as progressive Democrats. All 4 of them ran as centrists. FDR didn’t govern that way but the other 3 did. And all 4 were pragmatists. 

Sure, but they had a vision for the country and for their party.  Now I know that vision was tempered by practicality, but I think that Is  far different than the current state of affairs where there is no vision, no leadership, just a desire to respond to and to reflect polling data.  Now of course as soon as I write this down I realize there are a few fringe candidates that want universal income or healthcare or free college to all, even those unable to address the rigors, but for the most part, from my perch, a perch I admit is not necessarily interested in advancing the democratic party, it seems there is no vision just a desire for power. It seems to me that the Dems do best when they have a vision, when they embrace rather aspirational goals, outcomes, and futures, when they inspire.  That is what I was trying to convey, though I did it poorly.  I was not trying to capture the best label within the party for them, but rather something about inspiring vision to seek to broaden party appeal which is, of course, always good electoral politics.  To me it was about leadership, not grasping the reigns of power with no idea what to do once there.

No matter, I have freely and routinely disclosed that the democrats should take anything I say to them or about them with several grains of salt.

BTW, Trump is selling a vision.  A hellish nightmare to many, but a comforting controlled, genocidal, white power sort of apocalypse his supporters drink from deeply.  I think the dems need to contrast that with a vision, a story of their own, not with programs, disjointed, designed to buy votes and constituencies, but with a vision for who we are and who we are to become.  

Edited by Ditkaless Wonders
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Just now, Ditkaless Wonders said:

Sure, but they had a vision for the country and for their party.  Now I know that vision was tempered by practicality, but I think that Is  far different than the current state of affairs where there is no vision, no leadership, just a desire to respond to and to reflect polling data.  Now of course as soon as I write this down I realize there are a few fringe candidates that want universal income or healthcare or free college to all, even those unable to address the rigors, but for the most part, from my perch, a perch I admit is not necessarily interested in advancing the democratic party, it seems there is no vision just a desire for power. It seems to me that the Dems do best when they have a vision, when they embrace rather aspirational, when they inspire.  That is what I was trying to convey, though I did it poorly.  I was not trying to capture the best label within the party for them, but rather something about inspiring vision to seek to broaden party appeal which is, of course, always good electoral politics.  To me it was about leadership, not grasping the reigns of power with no idea what to do once there.

No matter, I have freely and routinely disclosed that the democrats should take anything I say to them or about them with several grains of salt.

BTW, Trump is selling a vision.  A hellish nightmare to many, but a comforting controlled, genocidal, white power sort of apocalypse his supporters drink from deeply.  I think the dems need to contrast that with a vision, a story of their own, not with programs, disjointed, designed to buy votes and constituencies, but with a vision for who we are and who we are to become.  

Thoughtful, excellent post. 

But I gotta say, I still think “Not Trump’s Vision” is a perfectly satisfactory vision. 

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20 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Thoughtful, excellent post. 

But I gotta say, I still think “Not Trump’s Vision” is a perfectly satisfactory vision. 

I suspect that is a winner, but then again I could not conceive of him winning last time, even appreciating the immense unlikeability factor of Hilary.  

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2 hours ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

Sure, but they had a vision for the country and for their party.  Now I know that vision was tempered by practicality, but I think that Is  far different than the current state of affairs where there is no vision, no leadership, just a desire to respond to and to reflect polling data.  Now of course as soon as I write this down I realize there are a few fringe candidates that want universal income or healthcare or free college to all, even those unable to address the rigors, but for the most part, from my perch, a perch I admit is not necessarily interested in advancing the democratic party, it seems there is no vision just a desire for power. It seems to me that the Dems do best when they have a vision, when they embrace rather aspirational goals, outcomes, and futures, when they inspire.  That is what I was trying to convey, though I did it poorly.  I was not trying to capture the best label within the party for them, but rather something about inspiring vision to seek to broaden party appeal which is, of course, always good electoral politics.  To me it was about leadership, not grasping the reigns of power with no idea what to do once there.

No matter, I have freely and routinely disclosed that the democrats should take anything I say to them or about them with several grains of salt.

BTW, Trump is selling a vision.  A hellish nightmare to many, but a comforting controlled, genocidal, white power sort of apocalypse his supporters drink from deeply.  I think the dems need to contrast that with a vision, a story of their own, not with programs, disjointed, designed to buy votes and constituencies, but with a vision for who we are and who we are to become.  

Problem is every time the Dems come up with a vision they can't implement it because the damn Republicans have bankrupted the economy and the Dems have to spend all their energy fixing the mess left behind.

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On 7/20/2019 at 9:50 PM, sho nuff said:

If democrats want to win, don’t  take advice from Trump supporters.

So no substance on the points that were made?

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31 minutes ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

So no substance on the points that were made?

Actually, think what you will of Trip, those are very good points, and not just because I tend to agree with them, but I think that most people do.  

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On 7/20/2019 at 9:25 PM, TripItUp said:

My advice to the liberals as an independent 

 

1.  Stop using the word “socialism”

2.  Stop thinking of new ways to spend taxpayer money(free college)

3.  Attack healthcare by cutting costs, not by declaring “healthcare is a right “

4.  Apologize for Russian investigation and move on to something that matters 

5.  Distance the party from AOC and other wackjob taqueria waitresses with zero meaningful real life experiences 

6. Understand that most Americans are not pleased with our current unbridled immigration policy

7.  Stay away from supporting career politician candidates that are more interested in their careers than the American middle class 

 

of course, the Democrats are incapable of most of these....just answering the question posed in the title.  :shrug:

 

1)  Agree..However I think Fox News and the right use that as much as the left.  to "Scare" voters

2&3) This one is important.  So much talk about "giving" things away.  Usually money.  And that almost certainly will lead to tax increases.  That's a very very hard sell.   I do think everyone would love to have free healthcare, honestly who wouldn't?   

4 ) I get the Russian Investigation, it's important.  However I don't think the dems are handling it well and I think they are putting WAY too much effort into it while the 2020 election is coming up fast and they have no real message.

5) again..a big part of AOC and the new kids is the other side..FOX etc  The're obsessed.  AOC is already a celebrity--which is massively powerful in America, the last thing conservatives want to do is elevate another one to celebrity status.  Stop talking about them.  

6) This just seems like such a tough hill to die on for the Dems. But it's votes.....and votes are why they do this crap everyday.  That one also is such a dangerous one to get behind.

7) Every single politician in Washington, I believe, is more interested in their careers than the American middle class.  I don't care if its a dem or a rep.  

 

Edited by supermike80

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5 minutes ago, supermike80 said:
On 7/20/2019 at 8:25 PM, TripItUp said:

7.  Stay away from supporting career politician candidates that are more interested in their careers than the American middle class 

7) Every single politician in Washington, I believe, is more interested in their careers than the American middle class.  I don't care if its a dem or a rep.  

This is an issue on both sides, but even more on the Republican side. When you've got Republicans voting lockstep to repeal net neutrality when almost every American, regardless of party affiliation, wanted to keep it, you've got a serious problem. These guys are all bought and paid for.

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1 hour ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

So no substance on the points that were made?

About five posts up stream you just liked a post that replied to a substantive post by Tim by offering this chestnut:  "falsehood".

 

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On 7/21/2019 at 1:50 PM, Sheriff Bart said:

They could go full Charlie Daniels, Easy Rider, and start accusing him of insane conspiracy theories. Every time a democrat speaks they should declare Trump has been working secretly with Obama, Black Panthers and the Muslim Brotherhood to divide the country so they could take over. Repeat it. Over and over. When he denies it claim he's lying and you have proof but it's classified so you can't release it.  This, sadly, would probably work. 

You guys tried this with Russia already.

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13 minutes ago, zoonation said:

About five posts up stream you just liked a post that replied to a substantive post by Tim by offering this chestnut:  "falsehood".

 

Fantastic

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On 7/20/2019 at 4:34 PM, timschochet said:

Saying you’re going to give healthcare to undocumented immigrants is very unpopular with the American public. But the Democrats are not going to lose the election over this. There is not a single person out there who is going to say, “well damn I was going to vote Democrat but now that they want to give illegals healthcare I’ve gotta go with Trump instead.” It’s a laughable idea (which may be the reason for your emoticon?) 

On the other hand, supporting Medicare for All may very well cause some independents to choose Trump. 

Have you read that peace by Tim Wise that MT posted? You should. I’m talking specifically about the disinterest for policy among those who will/might vote for Trump.

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Point made on Pod Save America.  Dems need to pursure impeachment, win or lose, to show base coming out in 2018 mattered.

No one thinks trump is getting impeached with this senate.  It is baked in.  Their is only downside if you dont pursue imoeachment hearings.

The dems reluctance could unexpectedly work out if the impeachment hearings take up 2020.  Public will be sick of it.  Want to move in.  Dem base will feel like 2018 mattered and will be pissed when the senate doesn not impeach.

The current course of action by the dems is puzzling.

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This assumes public appetite for impeachment is significant and doesn't tip undecided independents towards sympathetic feelings for Trump.  

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8 minutes ago, rockaction said:

This assumes public appetite for impeachment is significant and doesn't tip undecided independents towards sympathetic feelings for Trump.  

They will just be sick of it like with Hillary.  Trump is an unsympathetic figure like she was.

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2 hours ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

Have you read that peace by Tim Wise that MT posted? You should. I’m talking specifically about the disinterest for policy among those who will/might vote for Trump.

For a counterpoint to that, you might check out the Peter Savodnik piece in Vanity Fair about the 2018 elections and Hollywood messaging I posted in Rock du Jour.  

Edited by rockaction
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Dems making the same mistake they did in 2016.  Thinking they have this in the bag.

If they push impeachment that will be the narrative not what Trump decides that morning.

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21 minutes ago, Daywalker said:

Point made on Pod Save America.  Dems need to pursure impeachment, win or lose, to show base coming out in 2018 mattered.

No one thinks trump is getting impeached with this senate.  It is baked in.  Their is only downside if you dont pursue imoeachment hearings.

The dems reluctance could unexpectedly work out if the impeachment hearings take up 2020.  Public will be sick of it.  Want to move in.  Dem base will feel like 2018 mattered and will be pissed when the senate doesn not impeach.

The current course of action by the dems is puzzling.

I believe Trump should be impeached, regardless of the consequences. But trying to predict those consequences is very difficult at this time. 

Lets see how the testimony goes on Wednesday. That’s going to tell us a lot about what happens next. 

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

I believe Trump should be impeached, regardless of the consequences. But trying to predict those consequences is very difficult at this time. 

Lets see how the testimony goes on Wednesday. That’s going to tell us a lot about what happens next. 

What were the consequences of all the failed Hillary investigations?  

This bone has meat on it too unlike the hillary investigations.  

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5 hours ago, FF Ninja said:

This is an issue on both sides, but even more on the Republican side. When you've got Republicans voting lockstep to repeal net neutrality when almost every American, regardless of party affiliation, wanted to keep it, you've got a serious problem. These guys are all bought and paid for.

So are democrats.  To say it's more one sided than another shows your bias.  Dont for a minute believe your beloved democratic reps wont sell you.   And it's not a contest to see who is worse.  But if that makes you feel better about it then run with it

Edited by supermike80

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1 hour ago, Daywalker said:

Dems making the same mistake they did in 2016.  Thinking they have this in the bag.

If they push impeachment that will be the narrative not what Trump decides that morning.

I don’t think many dems think it’s in the bag.

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4 minutes ago, adonis said:

I don’t think many dems think it’s in the bag.

Deep down they all know the base is coming out.

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3 minutes ago, Daywalker said:

Deep down they all know the base is coming out.

All about the EC.  

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11 hours ago, supermike80 said:

So are democrats.  To say it's more one sided than another shows your bias.  Dont for a minute believe your beloved democratic reps wont sell you.   And it's not a contest to see who is worse.  But if that makes you feel better about it then run with it

:no:

https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/topic/777006-congress-voting/

ETA: https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a28472403/15000-americans-died-medicaid-expansion-obamacare/

Edited by FF Ninja

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9 minutes ago, roadkill1292 said:

Think, maybe. Hope, for sure. But not "know."

The base will be energized. It's the independents in the "Blue Wall" states, IMHO.  

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The current ideology of the Democratic party makes it impossible. It is a congregation of oppressed groups that have one goal, remove Trump. On the surface these groups support one another,  even though it makes no sense (Islam and Homosexuality). The reality is these groups have been forced to band together. If the Democrats ever gain an edge, the different groups within the party will unnecessarily attack and ruin it for each other...using identity politics/sexism/misogyny/male toxicity etc etc etc...and the left will eat it's own.

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8 hours ago, FF Ninja said:

Again, if this is your only yardstick for how politicians are only concerned about themselves and not the people, you win.  Good job big fella

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27 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

Again, if this is your only yardstick for how politicians are only concerned about themselves and not the people, you win.  Good job big fella

:rolleyes:

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2 hours ago, GROOT said:

The current ideology of the Democratic party makes it impossible. It is a congregation of oppressed groups that have one goal, remove Trump. On the surface these groups support one another,  even though it makes no sense (Islam and Homosexuality). The reality is these groups have been forced to band together. If the Democrats ever gain an edge, the different groups within the party will unnecessarily attack and ruin it for each other...using identity politics/sexism/misogyny/male toxicity etc etc etc...and the left will eat it's own.

Dems care about the growing wealth inequality.  It may be fair when one guy accumulates all the chips at a poker table but it's not good for the game.  Quality of life is way down.  Both parents have to work.  Culture is dying because no one has the time nor money.

Healthcare the other issue.  Get less and less bang for your buck.  When corporations are buying commercials everywhere selling seasonal disorder medication to blind people you know it is out of hand.

Identity politics is rampant on both sides.  Just one is not white males.  When you vote for birther patient zero you kind of freak the rest of the country out.

 

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On 7/20/2019 at 8:02 PM, sho nuff said:

You keep saying that and I keep asking for where they said free...and never get an actual answer.  Yes, people can see the video and actual moderates wont react like you do.

They won’t fall for the dishonest propaganda.

I’m confused, what about that video makes think this won’t be free?  I’m gonna play along with this.  Will these people be paying out of pocket?  

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2 minutes ago, Widbil83 said:

I’m confused, what about that video makes think this won’t be free?  I’m gonna play along with this.  Will these people be paying out of pocket?  

Provide doesn't just equal free.

You know this...and i have no inclination to answer much more because I don’t believe its an honest discussion.

Also, a question for you posted in the McConnell thread a while back. Even tagged you...got an answer?

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10 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

Provide doesn't just equal free.

You know this...and i have no inclination to answer much more because I don’t believe its an honest discussion.

Also, a question for you posted in the McConnell thread a while back. Even tagged you...got an answer?

I love how you can’t even admit this was a ridiculous self inflicted wound (fatal imo) by Democrats.  Tim even admits this.

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11 minutes ago, Widbil83 said:

I love how you can’t even admit this was a ridiculous self inflicted wound (fatal imo) by Democrats.  Tim even admits this.

I don’t think he ever admitted its any fatal mistake. Nor would an admission by someone else here really sway me.

Ive barely seen it brought up outsode of this board and a few right wingers trying to get it to gain traction. It will likely be a nin issue.

Nothing on McConnell coming, I assume?

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22 minutes ago, Cowboysfan8 said:

It was implied. Cmon lol

What was implied was that everyone would be covered under the candidates health care plan.  

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