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Socialism and How it Can Destroy America (2 Viewers)

Farm subsidies are bad. I'm pretty confident in that opinion.

More to the point of this thread, however, farm subsidies are not socialism. Farmers still get to own and operate their own farms even when they receive subsidies.

 
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Farm subsidies are bad. I'm pretty confident in that opinion.

More to the point of this thread, however, farm subsidies are not socialism. Farmers still get to operate their farms even when they receive subsidies.
I think its a form of socialism...especially when such a seemingly large percentage of income comes from subsidies.

 
I'd wager the architects of The New Deal, The Great Society, and so on, would have a much different outlook today if they were writing those things today. When those policies were constructed, there wasn't the wealth disparity, the wage gaps, the needs of today's society that they had to take into account. Corporations played ball and while corporations were not great to the worker, they did pay their taxes and did not try to hide money. The Great Depression was just ending and maybe Corporations had their hands tied a bit however the Conservative talking points have now taken root into the mentality of so many compared to back then. I don't think the differences you see as a problem are a problem at all. Those individuals you mentioned are in the same mold as the FDR's, and other architects. They only look different because society is much more out of whack than it used to be.
I’m betting that the wealth disparity during the Great Depression was wider than it is now, but I don’t have any statistics at my fingertips to confirm that. I’ll have to study it further. 

 
The first paragraph of Wikipedia’s article on socialism:

“Socialism is a range of economic and social systems characterised by social ownership of the means of production and workers' self-management, as well as the political theories and movements associated with them. Social ownership can be public, collective or cooperative ownership, or citizen ownership of equity. There are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them, with social ownership being the common element shared by its various forms.”

Subsidies don’t have anything to do with social ownership.

 
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The first paragraph of Wikipedia’s article on socialism:

“Socialism is a range of economic and social systems characterised by social ownership of the means of production and workers' self-management, as well as the political theories and movements associated with them. Social ownership can be public, collective or cooperative ownership, or citizen ownership of equity. There are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them, with social ownership being the common element shared by its various forms.”

Subsidies don’t have anything to do with social ownership.
Is ACA socialism? It's been brougjt forward in this thread as an example of socialism that is destroyng America (page 3 I believe)

Eta: Farm subsidies aren't free market capitalism either, so what are they?

 
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hose individuals you mentioned are in the same mold as the FDR's, and other architects.
Also this is simply not true. Had Warren, Bernie and AOC been around in the 30s, they would have identified with Norman Thomas, the socialist. They would have rejected FDR as too much for the status quo, like they do Biden. 

 
Also this is simply not true. Had Warren, Bernie and AOC been around in the 30s, they would have identified with Norman Thomas, the socialist. They would have rejected FDR as too much for the status quo, like they do Biden. 
I think it's impossible to say how Warren, Bernie and AOC would have felt if they grew up during that time.

 
Maurile seems to be using a definition of socialism that is More akin to the economic component of a communist system than it is to what is commonly understood as western liberal democratic socialism.  
 

I can’t think of any functioning democracies that have anything remotely resembling the former.  I’m sure he’ll have an example though!

 
Maurile seems to be using a definition of socialism that is More akin to the economic component of a communist system than it is to what is commonly understood as western liberal democratic socialism.  
 

I can’t think of any functioning democracies that have anything remotely resembling the former.  I’m sure he’ll have an example though!
I'm sure he'll explain his thoughts, since he's not known for drive-by posting

 
I’m using the dictionary definition. Every online dictionary, in addition to Wikipedia, defines socialism as including public control of the means of production. Under full-on socialism, instead of privately owned businesses pursuing profits, businesses are owned or controlled by workers, or by the state, or by a co-op, etc.

Ownership is a bundle of rights. So if we’re talking about public vs. private ownership of the means of production, we’re talking about how much of the decision-making process by a business is made by its private owners vs. how much is determined collectively — through central planning, regulation, etc.

Someone asked about the ACA. That has some socialist aspects because many of the decisions made — about what insurers must cover, etc. — are made via regulation rather than via market forces. But it’s not super super socialist; the government hasn’t nationalized the insurance industry or anything.

The most prominent examples of socialism (or at least attempted socialism) were in the U.S.S.R. and its communist satellites. I’m not an expert on every country’s economic system, but Venezuela is often cited as a more recent example.

Most countries have mixed economies, incorporating elements of both private and public control over the means of production. In the United States, for example, business owners get to make most of their own decisions and keep most of their own profits, but not all. Many decisions are constrained by government regulations, and some of the profits accrue to the state.

The United States Postal Service is a good example of socialism in America. The federal government controls the means of mail delivery.

 
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Maurile seems to be using a definition of socialism that is More akin to the economic component of a communist system than it is to what is commonly understood as western liberal democratic socialism.  
 

I can’t think of any functioning democracies that have anything remotely resembling the former.  I’m sure he’ll have an example though!
Well, they are two different things.  The right, as well as neo-libs, like to conflate the two when it suits them.

 
I particularly liked this excerpt:

A big mistake those of us on the conservative side made was to think that anything that made the government bigger also made the market less dynamic. We failed to distinguish between the supportive state and the regulatory state. The supportive state makes better and more secure capitalists. The Scandinavian nations have very supportive welfare states. They also have very free markets. The only reason they can afford to have generous welfare states is they also have very free markets.

I don’t know if the Scandinavian welfare model would work in nations as big and diverse as the U.S. But its success points to a few truths: The state nurtures prosperity when it helps people become capitalists. The state causes incredible levels of misery when it gets too far inside the decision-making processes of capitalists. It creates enormous misery when it cripples the motivational system that drives capitalism. Its causes enormous misery when it meddles with the relentless learning system that market mechanisms make possible.

Capitalism is not a religion. It won’t save your soul or fulfill the yearnings of your heart. But somehow it will arouse your energies, it will lift your sights, it will put you on a lifelong learning journey to know, to improve, to dare and to dare again.

 
Isn’t part of the reason the Scandinavian model works so well is because they’re not spending so much money on defense? 

Imagine if we didn’t have to spend so much on our military. We could provide free healthcare for every citizen, free and excellent education through university for everyone, and still maintain our free enterprise capitalist system. 

 
Isn’t part of the reason the Scandinavian model works so well is because they’re not spending so much money on defense? 

Imagine if we didn’t have to spend so much on our military. We could provide free healthcare for every citizen, free and excellent education through university for everyone, and still maintain our free enterprise capitalist system. 
I'd argue that we could cut the military budget by 50% and not miss a beat when it comes to what we get from the military.

 
I'd argue that we could cut the military budget by 50% and not miss a beat when it comes to what we get from the military.
Awesome. I'm eager to see how this could be done. Please provide us with a proposed new military budget by category.

Please be specific as to which branch of the military you would cut back on, bases you would close, number of troops you would lay off, weapons systems to be reduced, etc.

Also, if you could please show how "what we get from the military" would not "miss a beat" with your new budget that would indeed be very cool too. 

TIA

 
Isn’t part of the reason the Scandinavian model works so well is because they’re not spending so much money on defense? 

Imagine if we didn’t have to spend so much on our military. We could provide free healthcare for every citizen, free and excellent education through university for everyone, and still maintain our free enterprise capitalist system. 
Hint:  We don't have to.

 
Awesome. I'm eager to see how this could be done. Please provide us with a proposed new military budget by category.

Please be specific as to which branch of the military you would cut back on, bases you would close, number of troops you would lay off, weapons systems to be reduced, etc.

Also, if you could please show how "what we get from the military" would not "miss a beat" with your new budget that would indeed be very cool too. 

TIA
It would start a little like this. And, then evaluate why so much is spent on weaponry, since the money is not spent on personnel. A little audit of the military spending would do this country a good thing. And, while it's three years old... why do we keep spending more and more money on military when we have been in the longest peace time... ever?  Invest this money into our kids, infrastructure, future, and we'll be good.

 
It would start a little like this. And, then evaluate why so much is spent on weaponry, since the money is not spent on personnel. A little audit of the military spending would do this country a good thing. And, while it's three years old... why do we keep spending more and more money on military when we have been in the longest peace time... ever?  Invest this money into our kids, infrastructure, future, and we'll be good.
My bad. Your first link was some sort of SNL clip and so I didn't bother with the others.

When you said you'd "argue we could cut the military budget by 50%" I thought you had some actual knowledge on the subject (e.g. expenditures by branch, % troop vs. materiel, expenditures by theater, etc.).

 
Awesome. I'm eager to see how this could be done. Please provide us with a proposed new military budget by category.

Please be specific as to which branch of the military you would cut back on, bases you would close, number of troops you would lay off, weapons systems to be reduced, etc.

Also, if you could please show how "what we get from the military" would not "miss a beat" with your new budget that would indeed be very cool too. 

TIA
That's the problem. Any significant cut to the military will involve the loss of thousands of jobs that we as a society simply cannot afford. In my local area, Long Beach continues to rely on Boeing, with all those government contracts. In Burbank you've got Lockheed. And the list goes on. You take those contracts away, and it doesn't just affect those jobs, it affects the entire local economy. 

 I get that; any reasonable person does. But there's also the fact that Boeing and Lockheed and all of the others are producing a product that really isn't needed anymore. And rather than the painful process of trying to wean us off of those products, our politicians, fearing backlash, continue to authorize their purchase. And/or they push for other countries to buy them, which in turn forces us into relationships with unsavory partners like Saudi Arabia. It's a broken system and I have no earthly idea how to fix it. 

 
timschochet said:
Isn’t part of the reason the Scandinavian model works so well is because they’re not spending so much money on defense? 

Imagine if we didn’t have to spend so much on our military. We could provide free healthcare for every citizen, free and excellent education through university for everyone, and still maintain our free enterprise capitalist system. 
Correct

is Scandinavia leading the world in innovation?

also, Noway is a wealthier country per capital due to oil.

 
timschochet said:
That's the problem. Any significant cut to the military will involve the loss of thousands of jobs that we as a society simply cannot afford. In my local area, Long Beach continues to rely on Boeing, with all those government contracts. In Burbank you've got Lockheed. And the list goes on. You take those contracts away, and it doesn't just affect those jobs, it affects the entire local economy. 

 I get that; any reasonable person does. But there's also the fact that Boeing and Lockheed and all of the others are producing a product that really isn't needed anymore. And rather than the painful process of trying to wean us off of those products, our politicians, fearing backlash, continue to authorize their purchase. And/or they push for other countries to buy them, which in turn forces us into relationships with unsavory partners like Saudi Arabia. It's a broken system and I have no earthly idea how to fix it. 
We don’t cut military because of jobs, we don’t cut it because of our importance to maintaining the world order.

 
Mario Kart said:
I'd argue that we could cut the military budget by 50% and not miss a beat when it comes to what we get from the military.
I’d agree that we could cut it substantially.   

 
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We don’t cut military because of jobs, we don’t cut it because of our importance to maintaining the world order.
Not quite that simple. 

We could have just as powerful a military or even more powerful which was smaller, leaner, far less expensive. The technology is there. But it won’t involve as many jobs so we don’t do it. 

 
timschochet said:
That's the problem. Any significant cut to the military will involve the loss of thousands of jobs that we as a society simply cannot afford. In my local area, Long Beach continues to rely on Boeing, with all those government contracts. In Burbank you've got Lockheed. And the list goes on. You take those contracts away, and it doesn't just affect those jobs, it affects the entire local economy. 

 I get that; any reasonable person does. But there's also the fact that Boeing and Lockheed and all of the others are producing a product that really isn't needed anymore. And rather than the painful process of trying to wean us off of those products, our politicians, fearing backlash, continue to authorize their purchase. And/or they push for other countries to buy them, which in turn forces us into relationships with unsavory partners like Saudi Arabia. It's a broken system and I have no earthly idea how to fix it. 
Pity that these people cannot do something productive instead

 
Paul Ryan has a book that basically has the exact same title as this thread.  "The Case Against Socialism"

I suggest the 95% of this forum that is liberal read it twice.   At a minimum it should keep you away from Pocahontas and Bernie as viable candidates.

 
Paul Ryan has a book that basically has the exact same title as this thread.  "The Case Against Socialism"

I suggest the 95% of this forum that is liberal read it twice.   At a minimum it should keep you away from Pocahontas and Bernie as viable candidates.


Paul Ryan's Book - please read it.

The Case Against Socialism
I've read Rand Paul's book of the same title.  It walked a line between actual socialism (which we all agree isn't a good idea in this country) and labeling programs like the fire department, police department the same thing.  Paul Ryan has one to?  Of all people, he's the last one that should be writing this stuff given his track record.

 
Paul Ryan has a book that basically has the exact same title as this thread.  "The Case Against Socialism"
Considering socialism's longstanding principle is non-intervention abroad and anti-militarism, what are your thoughts in Rand Paul's support for the war powers resolution severely restricting Trump's power to act against Iran?

 
Considering socialism's longstanding principle is non-intervention abroad and anti-militarism, what are your thoughts in Rand Paul's support for the war powers resolution severely restricting Trump's power to act against Iran?
I'm generally anti-intervention to an extent and the opposite of socialism so you can believe in both.

 
:rolleyes:   

Obviously meant Rand Paul...given I provided a link to the book.
I didn't click the link.  Roll your eyes as you wish.  In two separate posts you said Paul Ryan, so I asked the question.  Rand's book I've read.  Is there anything in it specifically that you found compelling?

 
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I read it and it just reaffirms how much Kool-Aid the Republican Party has been giving to their backers. Jim Jones is in awe of the following. The Catholic Church wishes they could have this kind of following again. 
Yeah, the problem with you Socialists is you want people to think that "Democratic Socialism" is not Socialism.  It is.  Not only is "Socialism" in the word itself, the fact that the word "Democratic" is in front of it is only a smoke screen to try and trick people into thinking it's something other than, y'know, Socialism.  The Jim Jones analogy is great - because it really applies to you guys trying to sell this.  All you need is for it to get a foothold here and then you can remove the word "Democratic" and drop all pretenses.  We know the game.

We've seen the devastation Socialism brings to countries, including the insanely high body counts.  No thanks.  You can try to throw up distractions and pooh-pooh all you like, but if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck - it's a duck.  I'd rather you move to your favorite "Democratic" Socialist country of your choice (good luck finding one) instead of trying import that crap here.  NOTE:  California is NOT a country.  :)

You got an appropriate heckler's veto on your post.  ;)

 
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I read it and it just reaffirms how much Kool-Aid the Republican Party has been giving to their backers. Jim Jones is in awe of the following. The Catholic Church wishes they could have this kind of following again. 
What’s deplorable is Jim Jones comparisons. 

 
what?  Pocahontas?  Is that a known no no?  Honest question.  Trump actually used the exact same reference in his global press conference on Thursday.
Yes, it is indeed a sad state when we can't even use the childish nicknes that our very own president uses on a daily basis. I applaud Joe for having higher standards.

But either way, I would hope you would realize that a sure way to lose an argument is to resort to calling your opponents stupid racist nicknames. 

 
Yes, it is indeed a sad state when we can't even use the childish nicknes that our very own president uses on a daily basis. I applaud Joe for having higher standards.

But either way, I would hope you would realize that a sure way to lose an argument is to resort to calling your opponents stupid racist nicknames. 
Does this include calling other posters "Jim Jones" like cultists?  I would love to see you admonish those posters as well in another post.

Can we count on your even-handedness?

 
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fear·mon·ger·ing

/ˈfirˌməNGəriNG/

noun

noun: fear-mongering

the action of deliberately arousing public fear or alarm about a particular issue.

"his campaign for re-election was based on fearmongering and deception"

 
fear·mon·ger·ing

/ˈfirˌməNGəriNG/

noun

noun: fear-mongering

the action of deliberately arousing public fear or alarm about a particular issue.

"his campaign for re-election was based on fearmongering and deception"
de·cep·tion | \ di-ˈsep-shən  \

Definition of deception

1a: the act of causing someone to accept as true or valid what is false or invalid : the act of deceivingresorting to falsehood and deceptionused deception to leak the classified information

b: the fact or condition of being deceivedthe deception of his audience

2: something that deceives : TRICKfooled by a scam artist's clever deception

 

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