Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
Sign in to follow this  
TripItUp

Socialism and How it Can Destroy America

Recommended Posts

22 hours ago, Mario Kart said:

I read it and it just reaffirms how much Kool-Aid the Republican Party has been giving to their backers. Jim Jones is in awe of the following. The Catholic Church wishes they could have this kind of following again. 

but i want to get love for my hate. where do i go?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, timschochet said:

@BladeRunner‘s arguments are severely flawed, nonetheless they are a good example of the problems Democrats will face if we nominate Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren. The public is not educated on the differences between progressivism and Democratic socialism, or Democratic socialism and socialism, or socialism and communism. Republicans are sure to spend the months before the election conflating all of these, either with deliberate dishonesty or, as I believe in the case of BladeRunner, earnest but misguided conviction based on ideological historical revisionism. But the result will be the same: moving the discussion away from the ineptitude and embarrassment that is Donald Trump and towards a discussion of what socialism actually means. 

We simply don’t have time, in a few months, to educate the public about this. Too many of them will simply decide “better the Devil I know” and vote to re-elect Trump. That’s why for the Democrats to win, I think they need two avoid either Sanders or Warren. 

Uhm...no.  I respectfully disagree.  My arguments are spot on.  Like I said, "Democratic Socialism" is a made up word to provide a smoke screen for the true, underlying cause of Socialism.  

I guess I'm a bit surprised at the sudden rush to the defense of Socialism by posters here. Or at least the amount of people being duped.  I logon this morning and I feel like the new girl here in town, with about 15 messages waiting for me in defense of this horrid ideology.  To me, it's a sad state of affairs when we got people falling for the "No, it's not Socialism!  It's...uh....'Democratic Socialism'.  Yeah, that's the ticket!".

Don't even let the door open for the Socialists.  Ever. 

Edited by BladeRunner
  • Laughing 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, timschochet said:

I didn’t get around to reading this until just now but it’s 100% wrong, and is completely opposite of history. 

Not a single one of the countries you mentioned were socialist first and Communist later. There was no stepping stone- all of those countries, with the exception of Venezuela which really doesn’t quite fit with the others, became Communist instantly following bloody revolutions. Communism is not a political system that eventually creeps up on you: in the history of the world it has never been established without a violent takeover of the existing government. 

I’m no fan of socialism, or Democratic socialism, because I don’t believe these type of systems are inefficient and tend to stifle human ingenuity, creativity, individualism. I believe in capitalism. But your critique that it causes “dead bodies to flow” is just confused. Most of Western Europe is socialist or has been, particularly in Scandinavia. None of these countries ever “evolved” into Communism. It doesn’t happen. 

What?  The Scandinavian countries will be the first to tell you they aren't Socialist.  Or Western European countries.  That's a common myth spread here in the US in defense of this nonsense.

Edited by BladeRunner

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, matuski said:

Is Trump your benchmark and role model on how to talk to/treat people?

Honest question.

:rolleyes:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

I  guess I'm a bit surprised at the sudden rush to the defense of Socialism by posters here.  I logon this morning and I feel like the new girl here in town, with about 15 messages waiting for me in defense of this horrid ideology.  To me, it's a sad state of affairs when we got people falling for the "No, it's not Socialism!  It's...uh....'Democratic Socialism'.  Yeah, that's the ticket!".

I haven’t read anyone defending the merits of Socialism. I have read, and written, about the need for accuracy. Some have also advocated for accuracy while others, like yourself, are discussing in a foreign language. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

What?  The Scandinavian countries will be the first to tell you they aren't Socialist.  Or Western European countries.  That's a common myth spread here in the US in defense of this nonsense.

What if a wing of the Democratic Party said they wanted to reform the U.S. to add some ideas they liked from analyzing Western European and Scandinavian countries.  How dangerous would this be?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, TripItUp said:

:rolleyes:

 

Dead serious.

eta - you held him up as an example. :shrug:

Edited by matuski

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Mario Kart said:

I haven’t read anyone defending the merits of Socialism. I have read, and written, about the need for accuracy. Some have also advocated for accuracy while others, like yourself, are discussing in a foreign language. 

You keep insisting you want accuracy but are unwilling to even look at yourself as the one spreading the inaccuracy of "Democratic Socialism".  It doesn't hold up under scrutiny so now it appears your default is just to dismiss everyone else as inaccurate (i.e. spreading lies).  I'm simply pointing out that "Democratic Socialism" is a pretense for Socialism.

Until you're able to be accurate yourself, I'm afraid we're at an impasse.  :shrug: 

I hope you have a good weekend!

 

Edited by BladeRunner

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Juxtatarot said:

What if a wing of the Democratic Party said they wanted to reform the U.S. to add some ideas they liked from analyzing Western European and Scandinavian countries.  How dangerous would this be?

The Socialist wing of the Democratic party wants to reform the US?  Yes, they do.  Reform it into full blow Socialism.  It starts with the small steps - fooling the people into thinking they aren't really buying into Socialism when they really are.  Once they get a foothold, then it's on.

Edited by BladeRunner

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, BladeRunner said:

You keep insisting you want accuracy but are unwilling to even look at yourself as the one spreading the inaccuracy of "Democratic Socialism".  It doesn't hold up under scrutiny so now it appears your default is just to dismiss everyone else as inaccurate (i.e. spreading lies).

Until you're able to be accurate yourself, I'm afraid we're at an impasse.  :shrug: 

I’ve been nothing but accurate by using sources, linked and not linked, to back up my statements. Unfortunately, you have refused to do so yourself. While I may not bat 1.000, I’m doing much better than the 0.167 (1/6) you’re doing. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Mario Kart said:

I’ve been nothing but accurate by using sources, linked and not linked, to back up my statements. Unfortunately, you have refused to do so yourself. While I may not bat 1.000, I’m doing much better than the 0.167 (1/6) you’re doing. 

No, you haven't.  What on earth are you talking about?

Anyways, it appears you don't want a fruitful discussion.   So we'll just agree to disagree.  You'll just have to continue speaking to the acolytes and the choir you've always spoken to to affirm your position.  Good luck!

Edited by BladeRunner
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

No, you haven't.  What on earth are you talking about?

Anyways, it appears you don't want a fruitful discussion.   So we'll just agree to disagree.  You'll just have to continue speaking to the acolytes and the choir you've always spoken to to affirm your position.  Good luck!

Please, inform me, what statements have I written that are inaccurate? I’ve pointed out a few of yours, what are mine. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

  It starts with the small steps - fooling the people into thinking they aren't really buying into Socialism when they really are.  Once they get a foothold, then it's on.

To be clear, is your hypothesis that it’s all a ruse? That it’s not an attempt to help the less fortunate? It’s just a ploy to take power and oppress the masses?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Mario Kart said:

Please, inform me, what statements have I written that are inaccurate? I’ve pointed out a few of yours, what are mine. 

What?  I've already pointed out the ones in previous posts between us.  I'm not going to repeat them again.

The ones you've pointed out of mine are pure fabrication on your part to try and put forth a false narrative.  You basically just keep saying "you're lying", "you're inaccurate" to keep the gas-lighting going on.  You haven't proven anything.

Edited by BladeRunner
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Juxtatarot said:

To be clear, is your hypothesis that it’s all a ruse? That it’s not an attempt to help the less fortunate? It’s just a ploy to take power and oppress the masses?

Yep, for the most part.  It's always about power.  Always.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

The Socialist wing of the Democratic party wants to reform the US?  Yes, they do.  Reform it into full blow Socialism.  It starts with the small steps - fooling the people into thinking they aren't really buying into Socialism when they really are.  Once they get a foothold, then it's on.

You continue to gloss over all the checks and balances we have in place in our government.  The only possible way what you’re worried about happening happens is if someone like Bernie gets in, somehow gets some “socialist” programs passed, those programs are successful leading to more programs like it getting passed that are successful, Bernie gets re-elected, Congress flips to a 2/3rd socialist populace, more programs get passed and work then the next POTUS comes in and it’s AOC, an on and on and on.....  

For all that to happen it has to mean 2 things.  1-Socialism works and 2- A complete overhaul of our system of governance the likes of which has not happened since our inception.  The odds of that are like winning the power ball back to back.  

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

Yep, for the most part.  It's always about power.  Always.

And for the non socialists, what is it about?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, msommer said:

And for the non socialists, what is it about?

Come on you know this.  The GOP is only in this for the people, the DEM’s are clearly only in this for power and to control.  

  • Laughing 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, dkp993 said:

Come on you know this.  The GOP is only in this for the people, the DEM’s are clearly only in this for power and to control.  

GD those altruistic capitalists. They ruin everything!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, BladeRunner said:

The Socialist wing of the Democratic party wants to reform the US?  Yes, they do.  Reform it into full blow Socialism.  It starts with the small steps - fooling the people into thinking they aren't really buying into Socialism when they really are.  Once they get a foothold, then it's on.

Is your view that countries like Canada and Denmark are on an unalterable path to “full blown Socialism” right now?  If so, when can we expect all the Venezuela stuff to happen?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

Is your view that countries like Canada and Denmark are on an unalterable path to “full blown Socialism” right now?  If so, when can we expect all the Venezuela stuff to happen?

You bet.  They are certainly on their way (Canada, at least.  Don't know THAT much about Denmark).

I can't predict the future, but you know that so I'm not sure why you even asked the question.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

Come on you know this.  The GOP is only in this for the people, the DEM’s are clearly only in this for power and to control.  

FINALLY someone said it!!  :thumbup:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, BladeRunner said:

NOT Socialism?

Since socialists are all about power, for non socialists it is about the absence of power?

That doesn't seem likely

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

FINALLY someone said it!!  :thumbup:

Red team good Blue team bad.  Always good to know where someone’s thought process is rooted in.  👍

Edited by dkp993
  • Sad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So many policies that the progressive wing of the democratic party is suggesting that are being labeled here and elsewhere in right wing media as socialist have been implemented in the Nordic countries.

Here is a video that touches on the effects of that (at least in the Nordic countries)

Enjoy

Edited by msommer
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, BladeRunner said:

What?  The Scandinavian countries will be the first to tell you they aren't Socialist.  Or Western European countries.  That's a common myth spread here in the US in defense of this nonsense.

OK. The Scandinavian countries have cradle to grave health insurance, free education, guaranteed housing and unemployment insurance. To pay for it their tax base is significantly higher than ours. The political parties that pushed for this form of government call themselves either Social Democrats or Democratic Socialists and it’s hard to tell the difference. And their system is almost to a tee exactly what Bernie Sanders and AOC would like to give us here. It has nothing to do with Communism. You’re free to call it what you want though. 

But whatever. Your biggest error, which is central to your point of view, is the claim that somehow the system that Bernie and co wants to set up here will lead to a totalitarian form of Communism with dead bodies and all that entails. It’s an absurd argument. It’s factually incorrect. It’s not something you can “respectfully disagree” with me about; you’re simply, objectively wrong. It’s not a question of point of view. 

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, timschochet said:

OK. The Scandinavian countries have cradle to grave health insurance, free education, guaranteed housing and unemployment insurance. To pay for it their tax base is significantly higher than ours. The political parties that pushed for this form of government call themselves either Social Democrats or Democratic Socialists and it’s hard to tell the difference. And their system is almost to a tee exactly what Bernie Sanders and AOC would like to give us here. It has nothing to do with Communism. You’re free to call it what you want though. 

But whatever. Your biggest error, which is central to your point of view, is the claim that somehow the system that Bernie and co wants to set up here will lead to a totalitarian form of Communism with dead bodies and all that entails. It’s an absurd argument. It’s factually incorrect. It’s not something you can “respectfully disagree” with me about; you’re simply, objectively wrong. It’s not a question of point of view. 

I appreciate your comments.  Thank-you.  All I can say is Lenin, Marx and I believe Engels saw Socialism as the natural evolution to Communism.  That is NOT factually incorrect.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

I appreciate your comments.  Thank-you.  All I can say is Lenin, Marx and I believe Engels saw Socialism as the natural evolution to Communism.  That is NOT factually incorrect.

You’re definitely wrong on Lenin. And Marx specifically talks in the Manifesto about how communism can’t happen via democracy - have to remember that this was in the wake of the failures of the Paris Commune, 1848, and all that.

Engels was pretty fishy, he was probably closer to today’s Euro-socialists.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

I appreciate your comments.  Thank-you.  All I can say is Lenin, Marx and I believe Engels saw Socialism as the natural evolution to Communism.  That is NOT factually incorrect.

Ok.  I see my time spent watching Charlize Theron movies as the natural evolution to me dating Charlize Theron.  That also isn’t factually incorrect.......but it also doesn’t mean there is any fact base that supports the likelihood it happens.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

You’re definitely wrong on Lenin. And Marx specifically talks in the Manifesto about how communism can’t happen via democracy - have to remember that this was in the wake of the failures of the Paris Commune, 1848, and all that.

Engels was pretty fishy, he was probably closer to today’s Euro-socialists.

Wait, in a bit I'm sure we'll hear what Marx and Lenin really meant

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, BladeRunner said:

Uhm...no.  I respectfully disagree.  My arguments are spot on.  Like I said, "Democratic Socialism" is a made up word to provide a smoke screen for the true, underlying cause of Socialism.  

I guess I'm a bit surprised at the sudden rush to the defense of Socialism by posters here. Or at least the amount of people being duped.  I logon this morning and I feel like the new girl here in town, with about 15 messages waiting for me in defense of this horrid ideology.  To me, it's a sad state of affairs when we got people falling for the "No, it's not Socialism!  It's...uh....'Democratic Socialism'.  Yeah, that's the ticket!".

Don't even let the door open for the Socialists.  Ever. 

So what exactly is it you take issue with regarding our public schools, fire men, police, medicare etc?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

Exactly. If socialism ever comes to this country, like central planning and state ownership, it will come through the front door of populism, not the back door of federal spending.

For instance, a president who would overwrite the appropriations and appointments clauses, these could be dangerous things making federal control of spending and politicization of independent regulatory bodies unchecked. 

Edited by SaintsInDome2006

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

Well, I was going to get there next and talk about all the subsides we have in the corn and sugar industries, the proposed rules changes in the new NAFTA (though there aren't a ton), the public highway system etc.  But it doesn't seem like real discussion is desired in here.  I've asked the two clear opponents some questions.  They don't seem interested in answering.

Edited by The Commish
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, timschochet said:

Not good. If you think he’s wrong (and he is, demonstrably and objectively so) just explain why. No need for this. 

I mentioned no names and did not insinuate anything. I have, however, stated my peace and facts to back them up, if you care to read my posts. What is not good is the continued reflections and misinformation presented. All opinions do not deserve equal time. Now, I’m going to go drink some caffeine since that is my drug of choice. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Mario Kart said:

I mentioned no names and did not insinuate anything. I have, however, stated my peace and facts to back them up, if you care to read my posts. What is not good is the continued reflections and misinformation presented. All opinions do not deserve equal time. Now, I’m going to go drink some caffeine since that is my drug of choice. 

You insinuated a lot and then double down on it. Wow

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, Mario Kart said:

I mentioned no names and did not insinuate anything. I have, however, stated my peace and facts to back them up, if you care to read my posts. What is not good is the continued reflections and misinformation presented. All opinions do not deserve equal time. Now, I’m going to go drink some caffeine since that is my drug of choice. 

I am new here but it seems like you are way over the line here.  I don't agree at all with your take on socialism but I don't attack you for it or call you a liar.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, miapug said:

I am new here but it seems like you are way over the line here.  I don't agree at all with your take on socialism but I don't attack you for it or call you a liar.

My take on Socialism? I’ve used evidence and facts about what, and who, is Socialist around the world. Way over the line? I find repeated misinformation and deflection to be way over the line. When will and who will call out and shut down repeated attempts of misinformation and deflection? Anger, if any, should be directed at the falsehoods that are willfully expressed. 

I could express more but I’m on mobile but my train of thought right now is ripe with irony. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Mario Kart said:

My take on Socialism? I’ve used evidence and facts about what, and who, is Socialist around the world. Way over the line? I find repeated misinformation and deflection to be way over the line. When will and who will call out and shut down repeated attempts of misinformation and deflection? Anger, if any, should be directed at the falsehoods that are willfully expressed. 

I could express more but I’m on mobile but my train of thought right now is ripe with irony. 

You said posters who you disagree with are on drugs.  That seems over the line to me.  We will see.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, miapug said:

You said posters who you disagree with are on drugs.  That seems over the line to me.  We will see.

Yeah, I didn’t say that. Quit misrepresenting my written words. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Mario Kart said:

Yeah, I didn’t say that. Quit misrepresenting my written words. 

OK.  Glad to hear you misspoke.  Have a good night!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Mario Kart said:

Yeah, I didn’t say that. Quit misrepresenting my written words. 

Yes, you did. Your comment was about Blade Runner. Own up to it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, John Blutarsky said:

Yes, you did. Your comment was about Blade Runner. Own up to it. 

Trump fans love non PC, own it and stop whining. Mario Kart tells it like it is and that’s what we live about him. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, BladeRunner said:

I appreciate your comments.  Thank-you.  All I can say is Lenin, Marx and I believe Engels saw Socialism as the natural evolution to Communism.  That is NOT factually incorrect.

Actually...it is. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@BladeRunner you should study the Communist party’s reaction to FDR’s New Deal. They were extremely hostile to it, even though most of the ideas of the New Deal were taken from the socialists. They were hostile because they recognized it would save capitalism, not lead to its destruction. Your thesis is completely wrong, the opposite of the truth. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, timschochet said:

@BladeRunner you should study the Communist party’s reaction to FDR’s New Deal. They were extremely hostile to it, even though most of the ideas of the New Deal were taken from the socialists. They were hostile because they recognized it would save capitalism, not lead to its destruction. Your thesis is completely wrong, the opposite of the truth. 

Social programs are the bourgeoisie "buying off the revolution" by throwing bread crumbs to the proletariat.   I don't recall where this idea is written down  but I believe it long predates the New Deal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think even fatguy and I are socialists. We want something less than rapacious capitalism and believe that the country can be healthier with better regulated industry and a population safe from poverty.

Of course, I could be wrong about fatguy; he may really be a communist but I haven't seen him at any of the meetings.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.