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Big Question for Trump Supporters (1 Viewer)

OrtonToOlsen

OrtonToOlsen

Footballguy
To expand on the title...Trump supporters or “the Right” or the GOP or anyone who is dismissing the Mueller Report or his testimony or talk of impeachment.

Is there anybody out there that could change you mind concerning Trump’s alledged crimes and/or the call for impeachment?

Is there any pundit or politician or any person you trust/respect that could stand up, take an oath, and testify in front of a congressional committee and say: President Trump DID commit offenses* that absolutely should lead to impeachment proceedings AND the Senate convicting him. 

 And you would say “well, damn...if this person says Trump should be impeached maybe I’ve been wrong.”

*No need to rehash or debate the allegations

 
OrtonToOlsen said:
To expand on the title...Trump supporters or “the Right” or the GOP or anyone who is dismissing the Mueller Report or his testimony or talk of impeachment.

Is there anybody out there that could change you mind concerning Trump’s alledged crimes and/or the call for impeachment?

Is there any pundit or politician or any person you trust/respect that could stand up, take an oath, and testify in front of a congressional committee and say: President Trump DID commit offenses* that absolutely should lead to impeachment proceedings AND the Senate convicting him. 

 And you would say “well, damn...if this person says Trump should be impeached maybe I’ve been wrong.”

*No need to rehash or debate the allegations
Click to expand...
Sure, I was willing to accept if Mueller found him guilty but it was a nothing burger.   :shrug:

 
Weighing in here: I think this is a great question @OrtonToOlsen. I'm actually for impeachment proceedings at this point, so this might disqualify me, but right now there is virtually no pundit that would change my mind about impeachment.  I get the feeling that what makes me nervous about impeachment applies to the *right* writ large and that is this: The opinion one had of Trump before the election is largely the one you have after the election, and that opinion colors how you feel about impeachment, so much so that I don't really trust anybody to come to reckoning on the subject. 

That's what I largely think the answer is and will be.  

 
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I’d like to see what would happen if he did a complete 180 and just started proposing super liberal stuff. I bet a lot of his supporters wouldn’t care. 

 
OrtonToOlsen said:
So there is literally nothing that could change your mind(s)?
Click to expand...
It's a great question but there aren't any Trump supporters here to answer it. They only defend everything he says and does be it illegal, racist, whatever. No supporters though. 

 
OrtonToOlsen said:
So there is literally nothing that could change your mind(s)?
Click to expand...
You knew the answer before you asked the question. 

Those that have hung in this long are so entrenched in the "don't tell me what I'm supposed to believe" mindset that they're not going to change for any reason. At least that's what I see from Trump supporters I know IRL.

 
I don't care one way or the  other ot who says it.  Experts don't impress me, logic does.  So can someone state in one sentence what Trump did specifically which is clearly a crime?  Don't tell me some obstruction nonsense.  Give me something that is criminal.  

 
jon_mx said:
I don't care one way or the  other ot who says it.  Experts don't impress me, logic does.  So can someone state in one sentence what Trump did specifically which is clearly a crime?  Don't tell me some obstruction nonsense.  Give me something that is criminal.  
Click to expand...
. Demings:  “Were the president’s answers submitted under oath?”

Mueller: “Yes. Yes.”

Demings:“And there were many answers that contradicted other evidence you had gathered during the investigation. Isn’t that correct, Director Mueller?”

Mueller: “Yes”

Dennings: “Director Mueller, isn’t it fair to say that the president’s written answers were not only inadequate and incomplete, because he didn’t answer many of your questions, but where he did, his answers showed that he wasn’t always being truthful?”

Mueller:  “I would say generally”

That’s perjury.

 
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Courtjester said:
I mean it is a "slam dunk" isn't it? Why hasn't this happened yet?
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It hit the rim four times and it teetered...it is that close.  Closer than Benghazi+foundation+uranium one was to delegitimisation.  Hope this helps folks when they vote next year. 

 
OrtonToOlsen said:
. Demings:  “Were the president’s answers submitted under oath?”

Mueller: “Yes. Yes.”

Demings:“And there were many answers that contradicted other evidence you had gathered during the investigation. Isn’t that correct, Director Mueller?”

Mueller: “Yes”

Dennings: “Director Mueller, isn’t it fair to say that the president’s written answers were not only inadequate and incomplete, because he didn’t answer many of your questions, but where he did, his answers showed that he wasn’t always being truthful?”

Mueller:  “I would say generally”

That’s perjury.
Click to expand...
Ok, I will try again.  Specifically what did he lie about and why is it important.  

 
jon_mx said:
Ok, I will try again.  Specifically what did he lie about and why is it important.  
Click to expand...
It’s a long list, are you sure you want to do this?

One is the start and end dates of the Moscow Hotel Project. He also instructed Cohen to lie about that.

Its important because the President was subjecting himself to foreign influence.

 
Suppose McGann testifies publicly and  confirms that Trump ordered him to fire Mueller, and ordered him to lie about it? And then when McGann refused and threatened to resign both times, Trump backed down? 

Is that obstruction of justice? Is it enough to remove the President? 

I ask because it appears to be the worst charge (from what I can see). 

 
Courtjester said:
Okay, Let theTruth be known. I say we start them tomorrow. I know this is not the answer Tanner wants because it’s much easier to just generalize about Trump supporters, but I welcome hearings. 

Again if it’s a slamdunk,  bring it on 
Click to expand...
House Judiciary Committee Launches Official Impeachment Investigation

Our investigation will seriously examine all the evidence as we consider whether to bring articles of impeachment or other remedies under our Article I powers,” they wrote. They noted, “While many people believe that beginning an impeachment investigation can begin only with a vote of the full House of Representatives, this is not true. Article I [of the U.S. Constitution] authorizes the House Judiciary Committee to begin this process.”

As part of the investigation, the Judiciary Committee today filed a petition in federal court seeking to obtain grand jury documents related to Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s inquiry into Russian meddling in the 2016 presidential election and attempts by the Trump administration to obstruct the investigation. The grand jury information has been kept under seal.

“Because Department of Justice policies will not allow prosecution of a sitting president, the United States House of Representatives is the only institution of the federal government that can now hold President Trump accountable for these actions,” the filing states. It is directed to U.S. District Judge Beryl A. Howell, who supervised the grand jury involved in Mueller’s investigation, The New York Times reports.

The committee is “using the court filing to declare that lawmakers have already in effect launched an impeachment investigation of President Trump.

https://www.advocate.com/politics/2019/7/26/house-judiciary-committee-launches-official-impeachment-investigation

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
It’s a long list, are you sure you want to do this?

One is the start and end dates of the Moscow Hotel Project. He also instructed Cohen to lie about that.

Its important because the President was subjecting himself to foreign influence.
Click to expand...
Subjecting himself to foreign influence?  Is that a crime?  What does that even mean.  Foreign countries try to influence us all the time.  Was Russia forcing Trump to do something that was not in the interest of our country?  This is pretty murky stuff.  Until there is something that is clear and people can see it and agree that it is terrible, it is not going to move people. 

 
timschochet said:
Suppose McGann testifies publicly and  confirms that Trump ordered him to fire Mueller, and ordered him to lie about it? And then when McGann refused and threatened to resign both times, Trump backed down? 

Is that obstruction of justice? Is it enough to remove the President? 

I ask because it appears to be the worst charge (from what I can see). 
Click to expand...
There's soooo much that we can't see. That's the problem. This was a large scale cover up. We'll never even scratch the surface of what really happened. 

 
jon_mx said:
Subjecting himself to foreign influence?  Is that a crime?  What does that even mean.  Foreign countries try to influence us all the time.  Was Russia forcing Trump to do something that was not in the interest of our country?  This is pretty murky stuff.  Until there is something that is clear and people can see it and agree that it is terrible, it is not going to move people. 
Click to expand...
You just asked why it matters. Perjury and suborning perjury are strictly crimes.

Do you want another one?

 
Refusing to comply with congressional subpoenas is pretty bad. If impeachment procedures begin, I think the House should really bring that issue to a head.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
You just asked why it matters. Perjury and suborning perjury are strictly crimes.

Do you want another one?
Click to expand...
I want one.  So if I understand this story, Cohen lied under oath and later claimed Trump used code words to instruct him to lie.  Cohen could be telling the truth or he could be creating a story to cover his butt.   Going to need something more than just Cohen's claim to prove it.  

 
jon_mx said:
I don't care one way or the  other ot who says it.  Experts don't impress me, logic does.  So can someone state in one sentence what Trump did specifically which is clearly a crime?  Don't tell me some obstruction nonsense.  Give me something that is criminal.  
Click to expand...
Welcome back, jon.

Trump is also in violation of the emoluments clause of the constitution and has been since day one. This alone, had he been a Democratic president, would have gotten him impeached by the Republican majority before he finished his first year in office.

 
Courtjester said:
Okay, Let theTruth be known. I say we start them tomorrow. I know this is not the answer Tanner wants because it’s much easier to just generalize about Trump supporters, but I welcome hearings. 

Again if it’s a slamdunk,  bring it on 
Click to expand...
To be fair...it’s really hard to NOT generalize.  

 
jon_mx said:
I want one.  So if I understand this story, Cohen lied under oath and later claimed Trump used code words to instruct him to lie.  Cohen could be telling the truth or he could be creating a story to cover his butt.   Going to need something more than just Cohen's claim to prove it.  
Click to expand...
You’re missing the part where Trump specifically lied himself in his sworn written response, it’s not just Cohen, that’s separate.

That’s fine, I don’t want to wrestle with you, it’s conveyed in the report which iirc has corroboration if Cohen’s claims.

Trump for instance denied knowing about Cohen’s communications with the Kremlin but in a press conference he talked all about it.

Prosecutions have been made on less. 

- Ok, another is Trump fired Mueller then lied about that. 

 
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jon_mx said:
I want one.  So if I understand this story, Cohen lied under oath and later claimed Trump used code words to instruct him to lie.  Cohen could be telling the truth or he could be creating a story to cover his butt.   Going to need something more than just Cohen's claim to prove it.  
Click to expand...
If only there was a way for some group of elected officials to hold some sort of investigation to determine if the President should be charged with a crime.

 
timschochet said:
Suppose McGann testifies publicly and  confirms that Trump ordered him to fire Mueller, and ordered him to lie about it? And then when McGann refused and threatened to resign both times, Trump backed down? 

Is that obstruction of justice? Is it enough to remove the President?
Click to expand...
The backing down isn’t obstruction. The other stuff is.

But I think the informal, metaphorical statute of limitations has run on that as an impeachable offense. A year ago, or whenever it was first reported in the press, it may have been grounds for removal. In the month or two following the release of the Mueller report, it may still have been grounds for removal.

At this point, though, it’s old news. The fact that the Democrats haven't already impeached him for it signals that they don’t consider it to be a genuinely serious offense. Trying to remove somebody for doing stuff you don’t consider serious is pretty gauche.

They need new charges to support impeachment now. Maybe something in his tax returns will be serious enough to act on...

 
OrtonToOlsen said:
To expand on the title...Trump supporters or “the Right” or the GOP or anyone who is dismissing the Mueller Report or his testimony or talk of impeachment.

Is there anybody out there that could change you mind concerning Trump’s alledged crimes and/or the call for impeachment?

Is there any pundit or politician or any person you trust/respect that could stand up, take an oath, and testify in front of a congressional committee and say: President Trump DID commit offenses* that absolutely should lead to impeachment proceedings AND the Senate convicting him. 

 And you would say “well, damn...if this person says Trump should be impeached maybe I’ve been wrong.”

*No need to rehash or debate the allegations
Click to expand...
I don't know that I count myself a trump supporter but the short answer is absent evidence, at this point, no.  

"But obstruction"... I'll be frank, I don't care.  Its not that I don't care, but in the scope of what was presupposed and promised, collusion, acting in concert, courting assistance, I'm as interested in these offenses as the Whitewater inspired Starr report pivoting to Lewinsky.  Which is to say, not at all.  People in the scope of these reports seem to need to bring back a pelt so the not at all solid "did he obstruct" when the rhetoric from the likes of Swawell and Schiff was that he was actually a Russian Agent and we've seen the evidence for this, who inside the corridor of power currently would I believe?  

I guess... maybe if Don Jr. flipped, that would be compelling.

 
Smack Tripper said:
I don't know that I count myself a trump supporter but the short answer is absent evidence, at this point, no.  

"But obstruction"... I'll be frank, I don't care.  Its not that I don't care, but in the scope of what was presupposed and promised, collusion, acting in concert, courting assistance, I'm as interested in these offenses as the Whitewater inspired Starr report pivoting to Lewinsky.  Which is to say, not at all.  People in the scope of these reports seem to need to bring back a pelt so the not at all solid "did he obstruct" when the rhetoric from the likes of Swawell and Schiff was that he was actually a Russian Agent and we've seen the evidence for this, who inside the corridor of power currently would I believe?  

I guess... maybe if Don Jr. flipped, that would be compelling.
Click to expand...
Thank you for providing an answer.

 
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