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2020 MLB Spring Training (4 Viewers)

I dont watch baseball but have seen this story explode the past few days.

My question, if teams/players knew or suspected Houston was stealing signs why didnt the opposing pitching staff simply change or reverse the signs?  Wouldnt that screw up the team stealing?  If a player was looking for a curve but got a fastball instead.  Or whatever

 
FreeBaGeL said:
The difference is that the MLB was very careful to not pass on who did it and how recently it happened. If the buzzers thing is true and they admitted as much then it would be relatively easy for someome to figure both of those out and make it public knowledge. 
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That's not true.  They have only investigated the Astros as of now and they said they started in 2017 and stopped early in 2018.

 
shadyridr said:
I love how Shiek keeps saying this is not a big deal and it has been going on for hundred years. But what he fails to realize is there are DOZENS of players furious about this scandal. If this has been going on LIKE THIS for hundred years the players wouldn't be furious about this. Its like hes ignoring the people most directly impacted by this yet he keeps saying its no big deal because he played baseball once 20 years ago and it wasn't a big deal.
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Dozens?  Well then.  It must be true.  I mean, forget all of the evidence that shows that it's literally been going on since the 1800's, including using electronic transmission devices since 1900.  If you are telling me DOZENS of players say it's a big deal, well then sir, you must be correct.

 
pantherclub said:
I dont watch baseball but have seen this story explode the past few days.

My question, if teams/players knew or suspected Houston was stealing signs why didnt the opposing pitching staff simply change or reverse the signs?  Wouldnt that screw up the team stealing?  If a player was looking for a curve but got a fastball instead.  Or whatever
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DING DING DING DING!!!!!

 
On an unrelated note:  You ever see those politicians who come out and are so vehemently against gay marriage?  They talk non stop about it and how terrible it is?  Then they get caught in a bathroom trying to... well... you know.   Anyway, that doesn't have anything to do with this thread.  Sorry for bringing it up.

So, what were we talking about?  Oh yeah.  A lot of players coming out angry at other players crossing the line to get an advantage.  

 
pantherclub said:
I dont watch baseball but have seen this story explode the past few days.

My question, if teams/players knew or suspected Houston was stealing signs why didnt the opposing pitching staff simply change or reverse the signs?  Wouldnt that screw up the team stealing?  If a player was looking for a curve but got a fastball instead.  Or whatever
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Did people know or suspect? Closest that I've seen is when Danny Farqahur stepped off when he heard the trash can bangs, but maybe I've missed something.  If players on opposing teams were aware of the Astros wearing buzzers, I think that would have leaked before now.

 
Don Quixote said:
Did people know or suspect? Closest that I've seen is when Danny Farqahur stepped off when he heard the trash can bangs, but maybe I've missed something.  If players on opposing teams were aware of the Astros wearing buzzers, I think that would have leaked before now.
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There have been a couple of stories that came out the past couple of days about teams "knowing" they were doing it.  The Mariners were one.  I forget the other one I saw.  May have been the Indians.

 
TheIronSheik said:
There have been a couple of stories that came out the past couple of days about teams "knowing" they were doing it.  The Mariners were one.  I forget the other one I saw.  May have been the Indians.
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Trevor Bauer and Mike Clevinger seem particularly butt hurt right now. 

 
NREC34 said:
Trevor Bauer and Mike Clevinger seem particularly butt hurt right now. 
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Bauer is butt hurt about anything the Astros do.  Dude is kind of whiny.  But this wasn't a player.  I thought it was a manager or coach that was saying it.  I could be wrong. 

 
TheIronSheik said:
One thing that's important to note here is that the players were given full immunity to explain in detail how and when they did this.  One time immunity.  And on top of the immunity, nothing they said was going to be leaked to the public.  With that knowledge, if any of these players did NOT give over every bit of information, that means they could be suspended just like everyone else.  That leads me to believe fairly strongly that there is no additional cheating outside of what was said.  I don't think the Astros were stealing sign during the 2019 season for the simple fact that if they were, and it was somehow found out, their careers would be over.  Forever.  Shoeless Joe Jackson style.

I can't see anyone taking that chance to only detail some of their misdoings.  When life gives you full immunity, you take full immunity.  I would've been blabbering like Chunk in the Goonies. 
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Or Weasel in Deadpool 2

 
FreeBaGeL said:
The players were obviously complicit either way.

Yeah but in the message you were quoting it was implied that the means of collecting the signals was cameras either way, the only difference was in how they were relayed.

Basically he was asking why is stealing signs with cameras and then transmitting them via trash can pretty bad, but stealing signs with cameras and then transmitting them via buzzers the worst scandal in the history of anything?

The stealing signs with cameras and relaying them to the players was the bad part.  The method of relay on those electronically stolen signs doesn't seem that important.  It's bad either way.
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This could be a reaction similar to the Ray Rice situation.  By that I mean he was investigated by Goodell and handed out a 2 game suspension.  Rice admitted to everything he did and that was his punishment......Then the video came out that showed he did exactly what he said he did.  But now since people can see it that became a much bigger deal......even though it just proved he was being truthful in the investigation.  Nothing changed other than people now saw the incident so it became much, much worse.....even though it was exactly what he said he did. 

So people might thing using cameras to steal signs is bad but relaying via trashcans is one level.....but relaying by electronic buzzer is much, much worse.  Just the perception even though the actual action is the exact same result. 

 
The majority of the complainers are pitchers...….of course they are going to be against any form of this but they also could have altered their signs and turned that into an advantage for themselves if they were suspicious of signs being stolen.

I was listening to an interview this morning and the player (CJ Nitkowski) talked about broadcasting a game in Cleveland that Verlander was pitching where he was using sign sequencing even with nobody on base because he thought the Indians were trying to steal his signs.  I didn't catch the year and whether Verlander was on the Tigers still or the Astros but either way some players were aware of the possibility and took steps to prevent it. 

 
Gally said:
I was listening to an interview this morning and the player (CJ Nitkowski) talked about broadcasting a game in Cleveland that Verlander was pitching where he was using sign sequencing even with nobody on base because he thought the Indians were trying to steal his signs.  I didn't catch the year and whether Verlander was on the Tigers still or the Astros but either way some players were aware of the possibility and took steps to prevent it. 
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If it was while he was on the Stros it's possible he had good reason to be more paranoid about it than the average pitcher though. 

 
NREC34 said:
Part of me wants see this buzzer stuff get proven just for Twitter entertainment 
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In the court of public opinion, it doesn't have to be proven.

I'm not saying that in public opinion people are guilty until proven innocent (although there is an argument for that).

I'm saying that once you are proven guilty of cheating in one form, then in the public eye you are capable of cheating in any form. There is no benefit of the doubt regarding anything that looks like you might have cheated in another form. If you did one form, and it looks like you may have done another, then you probably did the other too in the court of public opinion. 

 
Politician Spock said:
In the court of public opinion, it doesn't have to be proven.

I'm not saying that in public opinion people are guilty until proven innocent (although there is an argument for that).

I'm saying that once you are proven guilty of cheating in one form, then in the public eye you are capable of cheating in any form. There is no benefit of the doubt regarding anything that looks like you might have cheated in another form. If you did one form, and it looks like you may have done another, then you probably did the other too in the court of public opinion. 
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Yep. Even if they didn’t do this it’s maybe the worst part of it. 

Like if you catch your wife cheating once. 

 
Gally said:
This could be a reaction similar to the Ray Rice situation.  By that I mean he was investigated by Goodell and handed out a 2 game suspension.  Rice admitted to everything he did and that was his punishment......Then the video came out that showed he did exactly what he said he did.  But now since people can see it that became a much bigger deal......even though it just proved he was being truthful in the investigation.  Nothing changed other than people now saw the incident so it became much, much worse.....even though it was exactly what he said he did. 

So people might thing using cameras to steal signs is bad but relaying via trashcans is one level.....but relaying by electronic buzzer is much, much worse.  Just the perception even though the actual action is the exact same result. 
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He wasn't given immunity, so Ray Rice still had a reason to lie.

 
Gally said:
The majority of the complainers are pitchers...….of course they are going to be against any form of this but they also could have altered their signs and turned that into an advantage for themselves if they were suspicious of signs being stolen.

I was listening to an interview this morning and the player (CJ Nitkowski) talked about broadcasting a game in Cleveland that Verlander was pitching where he was using sign sequencing even with nobody on base because he thought the Indians were trying to steal his signs.  I didn't catch the year and whether Verlander was on the Tigers still or the Astros but either way some players were aware of the possibility and took steps to prevent it. 
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Yup.  And like Jack McDowell said, in the olden days, if you thought a guy was stealing signs, you'd call for a curve and then pipe a heater high and inside.  Then you'd stare the guy down or yell to him to quit stealing signs.  Self policed.  Again, baseball is unlike any other sport.

 
stbugs said:
Yu chiming in on it. @Capella It does make you wonder if the “tipping pitches” comments like the Rays this year was their cover for cheating and knowing the pitches and nothing was tipped.
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There was video of the tipping pitches.  Everyone could see it once they pointed it out.  Even the pitcher acknowledged that he was tipping his pitches.

 
Politician Spock said:
In the court of public opinion, it doesn't have to be proven.

I'm not saying that in public opinion people are guilty until proven innocent (although there is an argument for that).

I'm saying that once you are proven guilty of cheating in one form, then in the public eye you are capable of cheating in any form. There is no benefit of the doubt regarding anything that looks like you might have cheated in another form. If you did one form, and it looks like you may have done another, then you probably did the other too in the court of public opinion. 
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No matter what the Astros do for the next 5 or so years, they will be accused of cheating.  That's what happens when you get caught.  And they can't blame anyone but themselves for that.  If they go out and win the WS this year, people will still think they are cheating. 

 
TheIronSheik said:
No matter what the Astros do for the next 5 or so years, they will be accused of cheating.  That's what happens when you get caught.  And they can't blame anyone but themselves for that.  If they go out and win the WS this year, people will still think they are cheating. 
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The Patriots don’t care what anyone else thinks. A title is a title and leagues are not going to vacate championships. 

There were articles and op ed pieces this past week where people were saying any team would trade a few million bucks and some draft picks in any sport to win a championship. 

Missing on draft picks happens all the time, the money is from petty cash, and managers and GMs are easily replaced. 

I am not saying that is how things should be, but that’s the practical reality. Call me skeptical, but I am generally suspicious of teams and players that have climbed to the top for multiple seasons. I think lots of teams in lots of sports have done some shady and sketchy things, but most of those haven’t come out. 

 
Hov34 said:
Nelson Cruz says hi.
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Great so at least one time giving a mid 30 something player a big contract worked out.  I understand why the Twins did it but its risky that's all.  Hope it works out for the Twins.  The AL could use another team to go up against the evil empire of the Yankees and Red Sox and the cheaters down in Houston.  Would be nice to see another team rise up and unseat one of those teams.

 
Pipes said:
Great so at least one time giving a mid 30 something player a big contract worked out.  I understand why the Twins did it but its risky that's all.  Hope it works out for the Twins.  The AL could use another team to go up against the evil empire of the Yankees and Red Sox and the cheaters down in Houston.  Would be nice to see another team rise up and unseat one of those teams.
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I saw that they were in on Wheeler, Bumgarner and Ryu.  After losing out on all three of them, they felt they needed a big signing.  Not saying that's bad or good.  Sometimes this works out.  But you never want to just sign a guy because you had hoped to sign a big name during the offseason.  Especially when the first 3 guys were pitchers and you end up signing a position player.

 
Pipes said:
Hov34 said:
Nelson Cruz says hi.
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Great so at least one time giving a mid 30 something player a big contract worked out.  I understand why the Twins did it but its risky that's all.  Hope it works out for the Twins.  The AL could use another team to go up against the evil empire of the Yankees and Red Sox and the cheaters down in Houston.  Would be nice to see another team rise up and unseat one of those teams.
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I agree it was risky, especially that he'll be 37 in the last year, but that's what they had to do to get him signed.  And it improves their Defense and allows Sano to move to 1B, while putting another 30+ HR guy with a high OBP in the lineup.  Now I have no illusions that they can compete with teams with multiple stud Starting pitchers come playoff time, but the 162 game ride will be fun and as a Twin fan that's really all I can hope for until baseball fixes its financial inequalities.

 
TheIronSheik said:
He wasn't given immunity, so Ray Rice still had a reason to lie.
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But he didn't lie.  That was my point.  He told Goodell exactly what he did.....got a two game suspension.   Then when the video came out showing that he did exactly what he said he did they suspended him indefinitely.  Video just made the act real in people's minds because they could see it.  Same with the buzzer....people could understand that a bit better (even if it didn't happen) as being over the line than banging trashcans even if it accomplished the same thing 

 
Jon Heyman saying out of the 3 teams looking for managers, the Mets are the most desirable is laughable. 

I'm guessing guys are beating down the doors of Houston and Boston to jump into teams that are already established and winning.  Usually, a new manager inherits a terrible team that finished dead last the previous season.  I'm guessing everyone and their mother would want to come in and coach the team that won 107 games last season.  

Are the Mets ever a desirable option?  For anyone?  In any setting? 

 
Not a good sign in Colorado.

The GM makes an announcement that Arenado will not be traded and that he's staying with the team.  Then 15 minutes later, Arenado issues a statement saying he feels disrespected by the Rockies organization.

Whoopsie.

 
TheIronSheik said:
Not a good sign in Colorado.

The GM makes an announcement that Arenado will not be traded and that he's staying with the team.  Then 15 minutes later, Arenado issues a statement saying he feels disrespected by the Rockies organization.

Whoopsie.
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Did he feel disrespected when they offered him that huge contract that he signed?

 
I love how their are sportswriters out there right now, that are writing articles on both how the Astros cheating scandal has devalued baseball AND how the HOF voters should vote for PED users because they deserve to get in.

I feel like you can't have those two views and be taken seriously.

 
Pipes said:
Great so at least one time giving a mid 30 something player a big contract worked out.  I understand why the Twins did it but its risky that's all.  Hope it works out for the Twins.  The AL could use another team to go up against the evil empire of the Yankees and Red Sox and the cheaters down in Houston.  Would be nice to see another team rise up and unseat one of those teams.
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Don't sleep on the Royals. They will be right up there in 2031.

 
Walker has the stats to get in.  He was a great hitter in the road as well. 

I know Jeter deserves in but probably shouldn’t be getting 100% if guys like Cobb, Ruth, Williams, Aaron, etc. didn’t get it. 

 
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