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2020 MLB Spring Training (9 Viewers)

DJackson10 said:
Not sure what you mean here. Been pretty cool when discussing this topic. I hardly associate with said poster nor see said poster in most threads I post in. No idea why theres an issue for him with me. Simple was giving him a friendly suggestion of a board function he could use to help himself. I really don't care He's already on my block list at this point 
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Best not to question it, GB.

 
TheIronSheik said:
If you remember correctly, the first 5 or 6 videos of the banging trash can at bats all concluded with the player making an out.  
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It would be nice to get the result of every pitch associated with the banging.  Beyond just the AB result.  Count, pitch result (ball/strike/hit/out/etc).   I would really like to get an idea of how much this actually affected outcomes.  I would also like to know how much legal sign stealing occurs and what the outcome of those situations.   It would be interesting if the results ended up being a BA of like .150 to see if the outrage continued. 

ETA:  I played through college and there were teammates of mine that didn't want to know what pitch was coming when we had the signs.  It took them away from concentrating on the pitch and their normal routine.  It's not for everyone. 

 
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TheIronSheik said:
A key thing of note here is that just say Manfred was somehow able to suspend some players.  Because it's classified as an "on field action", the maximum amount of games would have been about 8 to 10 games.  And the MLBPA would have fought that.  

So for all of the other players saying MLB didn't do enough to suspend the players, would an 8 game suspension have made it better?  Including the guys no longer on Houston?  I'm guessing not.  It's interesting because each time one of these players says the players should have been suspended, they are going against their own "team."  
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that's kinda what I've read about this.  And there is really no way to quantify in different degrees  who did it more or less, so the suspensions would not be fair.   

 
Gally said:
It would be nice to get the result of every pitch associated with the banging.  Beyond just the AB result.  Count, pitch result (ball/strike/hit/out/etc).   I would really like to get an idea of how much this actually affected outcomes.  I would also like to know how much legal sign stealing occurs and what the outcome of those situations.   It would be interesting if the results ended up being a BA of like .150 to see if the outrage continued. 

ETA:  I played through college and there were teammates of mine that didn't want to know what pitch was coming when we had the signs.  It took them away from concentrating on the pitch and their normal routine.  It's not for everyone. 
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I knew people like that, too.  Because it wasn't always correct.  Team might switch their signs up during the game and all of a sudden the guy on second is telling them it's a curve and he's sitting curve as a fastball zooms by.  

And by no means am I saying knowing the signs can't be helpful.  At no point.  But helpful doesn't mean automatic hit.  Or guaranteed good at bat.  

 
baseball is hard aint nuthin harder than hitting a round ball with a round bat and even if you know the pitch you can still screw up and screw up a lot but hey in baseball even 15 points on an average of 15 more rbis or 5 more homers would be a heck of a good thing for a guy and if you have a whole team of them with even small upward moves in major categories you have a big impact so to me the fact that you might hear banging and watch a guy still get out doesnt mean much what does mean a lot to me is that they kept doing it all season and that tells me that it was working and they knew it take that to the bank bromigos 

 
SWC said:
baseball is hard aint nuthin harder than hitting a round ball with a round bat and even if you know the pitch you can still screw up and screw up a lot but hey in baseball even 15 points on an average of 15 more rbis or 5 more homers would be a heck of a good thing for a guy and if you have a whole team of them with even small upward moves in major categories you have a big impact so to me the fact that you might hear banging and watch a guy still get out doesnt mean much what does mean a lot to me is that they kept doing it all season and that tells me that it was working and they knew it take that to the bank bromigos 
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No one is claiming otherwise.  The question is what the actual result was on each bang.  Also, when a guy is on second and steals the sign, what does that do to results.  We're just saying we'd love to see the data.  No one is saying anything else.

 
TheIronSheik said:
SWC said:
baseball is hard aint nuthin harder than hitting a round ball with a round bat and even if you know the pitch you can still screw up and screw up a lot but hey in baseball even 15 points on an average of 15 more rbis or 5 more homers would be a heck of a good thing for a guy and if you have a whole team of them with even small upward moves in major categories you have a big impact so to me the fact that you might hear banging and watch a guy still get out doesnt mean much what does mean a lot to me is that they kept doing it all season and that tells me that it was working and they knew it take that to the bank bromigos 
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No one is claiming otherwise.  The question is what the actual result was on each bang.  Also, when a guy is on second and steals the sign, what does that do to results.  We're just saying we'd love to see the data.  No one is saying anything else.
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well i would like to know that too but how do you account for the signs they got from the secret buzzers that they clearly had but that they say they didnt take that to the bank brohans

 
SWC said:
well i would like to know that too but how do you account for the signs they got from the secret buzzers that they clearly had but that they say they didnt take that to the bank brohans
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clearly? Maybe through some jaundiced, pre-conceived eyes.

 
Trying to look at the problem by quantifying the net advantage gained is sort of missing the point.   There's only one result to a strike.   If you're able to put a ball in play because you know what pitch is coming, there are a lot more potential positive results, including a clean hit, a misplayed ball, an error, a sacrifice, moving the runner over, etc.   You're also probably fouling off more balls, since you're not fooled on the speed.  That means more pitches per AB and wearing a pitcher out earlier in a game.   The fact that you knew what pitch was coming and didn't end up getting a hit doesn't mean you and your cheating team didn't gain an unfair advantage.  Then you multiply that advantage over every at bat, and every game over the course of an entire season.   It's a big deal.   That's why it's cheating.

 
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-fish- said:
Trying to look at the problem by quantifying the net advantage gained is sort of missing the point.   There's only one result to a strike.   If you're able to put a ball in play because you know what pitch is coming, there are a lot more potential positive results, including a clean hit, a misplayed ball, an error, a sacrifice, moving the runner over, etc.   You're also probably fouling off more balls, since you're not fooled on the speed.  That means more pitches per AB and wearing a pitcher out earlier in a game.   The fact that you knew what pitch was coming and didn't end up getting a hit doesn't mean you and your cheating team didn't gain an unfair advantage.
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Again, you're missing the point.  

 
cosjobs said:
SWC said:
well i would like to know that too but how do you account for the signs they got from the secret buzzers that they clearly had but that they say they didnt take that to the bank brohans
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clearly? Maybe through some jaundiced, pre-conceived eyes.
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i agree that some people in here are denying the obvious that they were using buzzers to cheat and frankly its a teeeny tiny little bit pathetic so i am with you brohan take that to the bank 

 
SWC said:
i agree that some people in here are denying the obvious that they were using buzzers to cheat and frankly its a teeeny tiny little bit pathetic so i am with you brohan take that to the bank 
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I think this is the first disagreement I have ever had with you.

Yes, the Astros are cheaters.

No, there is no evidence of buzzers, only speculation.

My theory is that Altuve has three nipples and did not want everyone to see them. Or maybe an unfinished collarbone tattoo. Whatever. We can all speculate, but to act as if the speculation is certainty is a disservice to the scientific method.

 
cosjobs said:
I think this is the first disagreement I have ever had with you.

Yes, the Astros are cheaters.

No, there is no evidence of buzzers, only speculation.

My theory is that Altuve has three nipples and did not want everyone to see them. Or maybe an unfinished collarbone tattoo. Whatever. We can all speculate, but to act as if the speculation is certainty is a disservice to the scientific method.
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Buzzer or no, Correa is full of it.  Dusty Baker's whining and Manfred's idiocy aside, I look forward to seeing a few fastballs buried in his ribcage.  

 
Oh boy. I know they had buzzers schtick. 

It was just a matter of time on here. 

Been going on for about a month on NY media. 

 
cosjobs said:
SWC said:
i agree that some people in here are denying the obvious that they were using buzzers to cheat and frankly its a teeeny tiny little bit pathetic so i am with you brohan take that to the bank 
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I think this is the first disagreement I have ever had with you.

Yes, the Astros are cheaters.

No, there is no evidence of buzzers, only speculation.

My theory is that Altuve has three nipples and did not want everyone to see them. Or maybe an unfinished collarbone tattoo. Whatever. We can all speculate, but to act as if the speculation is certainty is a disservice to the scientific method.
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i know its speculation but its fun speculation like you are speculating about the nipple conundrum or the tatoo i say speculate away because it beats arguing about politics take that to the bank bromigos 

 
Sucks for Altuve.   Even if Correa's telling the truth and Altuve didn't want to know the pitches, he's still part of a team of cheaters and his career and his accomplishments are tainted.   He's one of the most fun players in baseball to watch.   But he's just as complicit as the rest of his team.   

 
NREC34 said:
Christian Yelich has been really quiet about this thing. 

Just saying. 

(Fun speculation as to why)
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What are you talking about? He was one of the first group to blast the Astros. At the Brewers fan-fest or something. He, Braun and Council all lit them up for being cheaters.

 
E-Z Glider said:
What are you talking about? He was one of the first group to blast the Astros. At the Brewers fan-fest or something. He, Braun and Council all lit them up for being cheaters.
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He also fired back at Darvish for implying that the Brewers were stealing signs too.

 
-fish- said:
One of us is.   You're the one pointing out that the players on the video you watched with the trash can made outs.   That's completely irrelevant as to whether they or their team gained an advantage.
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Go back and read what I just wrote.  No one is saying it wasn't helpful, chief.  We're past that.  We were asking HOW helpful it was.  We've moved on in the conversation.  

 
Bull Dozier said:
You're missing his point.  No one has the market cornered on what point they want to make, or what their take is on cheating.
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We are literally trying to have a separate conversation.  This is like two people talking about what movie they liked this year and having someone blurt out, "Who cares?  Hollywood used to do blackface back in the day!"

He can have his point.  But it's not part of our conversation.

 
E-Z Glider said:
What are you talking about? He was one of the first group to blast the Astros. At the Brewers fan-fest or something. He, Braun and Council all lit them up for being cheaters.
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But did he take off his shirt when he made his comments?  No?  Probably because he's been wearing a buzzer for years. 

 
TheIronSheik said:
Wait.  What?

Before this scandal, the Astros were considered the nicest guys in the sport.  Well, not Bregman.  But everyone else.  Now they rub people the wrong way?
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yuli, verlander's dong, osuna, greinke.  non of these dudes are beloved.  

 
DA RAIDERS said:
yuli, verlander's dong, osuna, greinke.  non of these dudes are beloved.  
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Yuli, ok.  Osuna, obviously.  Verlander?  Thought he was pretty universally loved.  And Greinke has been an Astro for a month.  Also, why is Greinke not liked?  Maybe by his former teams, but I don't think most people feel ill will towards him.

 
Anyone remember the BTK killer? He was writing letters to the local paper, sending in personal stuff from victims, etc...until he got caught. 

We have a clip of Girardi on mlb network making its rounds today on Twitter explaining how the system NY used worked. 

So many Yankee mouth breathers on WFAN and Twitter have ticked me off on this. Please just let them get caught. I wouldn’t even care about anyone else. 

 
TheIronSheik said:
Go back and read what I just wrote.  No one is saying it wasn't helpful, chief.  We're past that.  We were asking HOW helpful it was.  We've moved on in the conversation.  
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And I addressed that too.  You have an advantage every at bat.   You multiply that over an entire game.  You multiply that over an entire season.  Even if it doesn't result in a single extra hit, lengthening abs and putting more balls in play is a significant advantage.  You're putting more balls in play and wearing out pitchers faster.   You want to quantify it how?  Is it an extra 10 wins a season?  Go look at how many one run games they won.   That's probably a good start.

 
Osuna is very well liked within the Astros organization though, their former assistant GM didn’t have enough good things to say about him.

 
-fish- said:
And I addressed that too.  You have an advantage every at bat.   You multiply that over an entire game.  You multiply that over an entire season.  Even if it doesn't result in a single extra hit, lengthening abs and putting more balls in play is a significant advantage.  You're putting more balls in play and wearing out pitchers faster.   You want to quantify it how?  Is it an extra 10 wins a season?  Go look at how many one run games they won.   That's probably a good start.
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Ok.  Thanks for the explanation.  

 
cosjobs said:
it always seemed to me that people hated the Astros more for signing Osuna, than they actually hated Osuna himself.
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Well, I think it didn't help that Virtuous Verlander vocalized all of his opinions about the problems of baseball and its myriad bad actors prior to this cheating scandal and before they signed Osuna.  He was noticeably quiet on Osuna's character flaws after Houston signed him.  That sort of thing doesn't play well with a lot of fans of the sport.  IMO.

 
General Malaise said:
 He was noticeably quiet on Osuna's character flaws after Houston signed him.  That sort of thing doesn't play well with a lot of fans of the sport.  IMO.
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In fairness to him, what's he going to say about it? It is nearly certain he's not going to vociferously condemn a teammate that he has to travel, room, eat with, etc. I'm not sure that should be high on the list. 

 
General Malaise said:
Well, I think it didn't help that Virtuous Verlander vocalized all of his opinions about the problems of baseball and its myriad bad actors prior to this cheating scandal and before they signed Osuna.  He was noticeably quiet on Osuna's character flaws after Houston signed him.  That sort of thing doesn't play well with a lot of fans of the sport.  IMO.
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Verlander reminds me of Tom Landry. Both were integral to my teams' success, but I would not really want to sit down and have a few beers with either of them.

 
The amusing thing is seeing how Astros fans are as clueless as the team itself, and how the backlash they’re creating with their obstinance will lead to further consequences.

 
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rockaction said:
In fairness to him, what's he going to say about it? It is nearly certain he's not going to vociferously condemn a teammate that he has to travel, room, eat with, etc. I'm not sure that should be high on the list. 
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In fairness to all of us, he should have perhaps considered that scenario before jumping on his soapbox to condemn the actions of other domestic violence offenders.  It was a bad look for him to say nothing at all once Osuna was his teammate considering how much he had to say on the topic prior. Again, my 2 cents only.

 
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