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TheIronSheik

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4 minutes ago, TheIronSheik said:

To the people that think this is serious, what kind of penalties are you thinking are warranted?  Is this worse than what the Cardinals did with the hacking?  Serious question.  

I expect a lengthy suspension for Hinch, loss of draft picks, and a big fine. Also, possible smaller suspensions for Cora & Beltran (20 games?)

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14 minutes ago, TheIronSheik said:

Yes.  I said that.  I was referencing how he said it's like listening in on the huddle in football.  I was just saying that's not the same.  

Data coming out suggests that it’s more than a little helpful...

 

Year.  SwingingK%(Rank)   K% Home (Rank)   K% Away (Rank)

2016.  11.5%(28th).  24.5 (28th).  22.4(20th)

2017   8.5%(1st)   16.7(1st)   17.9(1st)

2018   8.9%(T-1st)   19.2(2nd)   19.7(3rd)

2019   8.6%(1st)   18.5(T-1st)   18(T-st)

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6 minutes ago, shadyridr said:

Why would they do it in regular season but not in playoffs?

They thought they could get away with it with less crowd noise. Just crazy to me that they thought that. 

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2 minutes ago, bigmarc27 said:

Data coming out suggests that it’s more than a little helpful...

 

Year.  SwingingK%(Rank)   K% Home (Rank)   K% Away (Rank)

2016.  11.5%(28th).  24.5 (28th).  22.4(20th)

2017   8.5%(1st)   16.7(1st)   17.9(1st)

2018   8.9%(T-1st)   19.2(2nd)   19.7(3rd)

2019   8.6%(1st)   18.5(T-1st)   18(T-st)

I mean that looks bad but their Away K% isn't that different than their Home K% in the 2017-2019 seasons.

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2 minutes ago, shadyridr said:

I mean that looks bad but their Away K% isn't that different than their Home K% in the 2017-2019 seasons.

Yes.  This was brought up earlier.  People tend to forget the Astros sucked for the years before they won the WS.  They were literally publicly tanking.  

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1 minute ago, bigmarc27 said:

Who’s to say they only did this at home?  It’s not like this have never been brought up at away stadiums before.

https://deadspin.com/reports-indians-warned-red-sox-of-astros-employee-who-1829802578

Wouldn't they have to plant a video camera in the opposing team's CF stadium to do it in away games? I dunno how possible that is.

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12 minutes ago, shadyridr said:

I expect a lengthy suspension for Hinch, loss of draft picks, and a big fine. Also, possible smaller suspensions for Cora & Beltran (20 games?)

So the Cards lost their first two picks and were fined 2 million dollars.  Would the Astros get more or less?

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2 minutes ago, shadyridr said:

Wouldn't they have to plant a video camera in the opposing team's CF stadium to do it in away games? I dunno how possible that is.

I don’t know exactly what the communication looks like for them going from the outfield to the dugout, but I don’t see how hard it would be to have someone hang out with a camera and just signal that in. A camera the size of a credit card can put HD clarity on the catchers crotch.  It wouldn’t be that hard.

Edited by bigmarc27

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Just now, bigmarc27 said:

I don’t know exactly what the communication looks like for them going from the outfield to the dugout, but I don’t see how hard it would be to have someone hang out with a camera and just signal that in. A camera the size of a credit card can put HD clarity on the catchers crotch.  It wouldn’t be that hard.

Again, all the more reasons that teams should have been more careful with their signals.  It just seems so easy to use technology to steal the signs.  Trusting others just seems odd.

In sports, people are always looking for a competitive edge.  Why give someone an opportunity to take advantage of you?   

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43 minutes ago, TheIronSheik said:

First of all, GB, you know I love you.  

But as I stated from the beginning, I don't care what team it is/was, I don't think sign stealing is bad.  I don't think it's victim blaming because I don't think there's a victim.  The Astros have had players come and go, on and off the team for the past 3-4 years they've said this was going on.  Why didn't any other player bring it up?  It's just not a big deal. 

We can disagree on this.  But remember....

BOOM!  AND IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII-e-IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII WILL ALWAYS LOVEEEEEE YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU-o-UUUUUUUUUUUU! 

:mellow:

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7 minutes ago, TheIronSheik said:

So the Cards lost their first two picks and were fined 2 million dollars.  Would the Astros get more or less?

I'd say more

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Funny people saying this wasn't illegal in 2017 didn't see this
 

Quote

 

SCOTTSDALE, Ariz. — What did the Astros know, and when did they steal it?

That question could guide Major League Baseball’s investigation into the reigning American League champions regarding allegations that they electronically (and illegally) stole signs from opposing teams during their 2017 championship season. And early evidence would seem to put Houston in trouble.

On September 15, 2017, MLB announced the Red Sox would be fined an undisclosed amount for utilizing Apple Watches in their dugout to swipe signals from the Yankees; the Yankees paid a smaller undisclosed amount for improper usage of a dugout phone. That day, in a statement, commissioner Rob Manfred disclosed that all teams had been notified of the following: “Future violations of this type will be subject to more serious sanctions, including the possible loss of draft picks.”

On Tuesday, The Athletic, quoting 2017 Astros pitcher Mike Fiers, reported that the club utilized a camera positioned in center field and focused on the opposing catcher to steal signals, conveying their findings through the banging of a garbage can in a tunnel connecting the Astros’ dugout to their clubhouse. Retired pitcher Danny Farquhar shared his recollection of a suspicious incident at Minute Maid that occurred that season while he was pitching for the White Sox. Twitter baseball detective @Jomboy_ subsequently dug up video that substantiated Farquhar’s allegations during an at-bat against Houston’s Evan Gattis.

That White Sox-Astros game took place on September 21, 2017, six days after MLB made its announcement, therefore seemingly putting the Astros in violation of the reinforced and heightened guidelines.

Manfred is expected to discuss baseball’s investigation of the Astros, which also will cover the organization’s conduct during the Brandon Taubman scandal last month, at next week’s owners’ meetings.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, TheIronSheik said:

Again, all the more reasons that teams should have been more careful with their signals.  It just seems so easy to use technology to steal the signs.  Trusting others just seems odd.

In sports, people are always looking for a competitive edge.  Why give someone an opportunity to take advantage of you?   

Why can people just not be ####ty cheaters?

 

I guess people will defend anything so...

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9 minutes ago, bigmarc27 said:

Why can people just not be ####ty cheaters?

 

I guess people will defend anything so...

Have you ever played sports, GB?  Everyone is trying to get an edge.  Pushing the limits of the rules.  Some rule violations get you a penalty like 5 yards.  Or a 2 minute penalty.  Or get the other team a foul shot or result in a turnover.

"Cheating" is part of every sport.  Athletes will always try to push the boundaries.  To act like this is something like a murder is ridiculous.  But more importantly, figure out a way not to be taken advantage of.  

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2 minutes ago, TheIronSheik said:

Have you ever played sports, GB?  Everyone is trying to get an edge.  Pushing the limits of the rules.  Some rule violations get you a penalty like 5 yards.  Or a 2 minute penalty.  Or get the other team a foul shot or result in a turnover.

"Cheating" is part of every sport.  Athletes will always try to push the boundaries.  To act like this is something like a murder is ridiculous.  But more importantly, figure out a way not to be taken advantage of.  

Lol, I always love the “have you ever played sports” argument. I played baseball through HS. My step-dad played in the Royals organization years ago. Regardless, that doesn’t make anyone more or less educated on the subject. 
 

Do you have to work on Wall Street to speak on finance?  Work in healthcare to speak about cost of care?  Be a mechanic to comment on cars?

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25 minutes ago, bigmarc27 said:

Lol, I always love the “have you ever played sports” argument. I played baseball through HS. My step-dad played in the Royals organization years ago. Regardless, that doesn’t make anyone more or less educated on the subject. 
 

Do you have to work on Wall Street to speak on finance?  Work in healthcare to speak about cost of care?  Be a mechanic to comment on cars?

I was simply asking because if you've played sports, you know that people are always pushing the boundaries.  

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3 minutes ago, TheIronSheik said:

I was simply asking because if you've played sports, you know that people are always pushing the boundaries.  

Pushing boundaries is seeing that the pitcher holds his glove lower on curve balls, setting a non-player/coach up with technology to view what the other team is planning to do in real time is premeditated cheating. 

Edited by bigmarc27
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12 minutes ago, bigmarc27 said:

Pushing boundaries is seeing that the pitcher holds his glove lower on curve balls, setting a non-player/coach up with technology to view what the other team is planning to do in real time is premeditated cheating. 

No it's not.  Not at all.  That's called being observant.

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Sounds like they’re toast if they did it a lot in the season and into the playoffs. Could be a major scandal. Only thing that might save them is that it technically wasn’t illegal at the time. 

Edited by NREC34
Their there they’re

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And for the record, I'm all for them getting penalties/fines/suspensions if they are found to have broken the rules.  My point is that I think the rule is dumb.  But it's still a rule.  So you have to follow the rules.  

I just don't think sign stealing is that big of a deal.  

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7 minutes ago, TheIronSheik said:

And for the record, I'm all for them getting penalties/fines/suspensions if they are found to have broken the rules.  My point is that I think the rule is dumb.  But it's still a rule.  So you have to follow the rules.  

I just don't think sign stealing is that big of a deal.  

Sean Doolittle disagrees but he only plays professional baseball, so I don’t know if that qualifies him to speak on the subject.

https://twitter.com/whatwouldDOOdo/status/1195155484384354305

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1 minute ago, bigmarc27 said:

Sean Doolittle disagrees but he only plays professional baseball, so I don’t know if that qualifies him to speak on the subject.

https://twitter.com/whatwouldDOOdo/status/1195155484384354305

What are you talking about?  This post has nothing to do with what I just posted.  

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1 minute ago, TheIronSheik said:

What are you talking about?  This post has nothing to do with what I just posted.  

You keep saying “it’s just sign stealing” over and over. I can’t tell if you’re purposely downplaying this or you’re just being dense.  It’s not just sign stealing, and referring to this situation as such is misleading. 

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Sign stealing (the way they are accused of it) is a big deal. This fiasco reminds me of that movie Quiz Show which was about cheating in a 50’s game show. 

I watched the Astros starting in 1980. So 37 years to see them make it to the top and now this. I’m disappointed right now. 

I am pretty sure that the Rangers were  doing something this year too. Just rocked Gerrit Cole in an early season game. No way they did that without help.

 

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9 minutes ago, bigmarc27 said:

You keep saying “it’s just sign stealing” over and over. I can’t tell if you’re purposely downplaying this or you’re just being dense.  It’s not just sign stealing, and referring to this situation as such is misleading. 

It is just sign stealing.  And it's not that big of a deal.  Speeding on the highway is not that big of a deal.  But if you get caught doing it, you can get a pretty hefty fine, have points put on your license and possibly have your insurance rates go up. Pretty significant consequences.  But that doesn't mean that speeding is a huge deal.

Sign stealing is not a big deal.  If something is totally acceptable by using your eyes but not by using a camera, then it's not that big of a deal.  You highlighted one player who was against it.  Do you think the Astros pitchers were aware of this?  Did they say anything?  Hell, Fiers was OK with it while he was on the winning side of it.  Only after he left did he all of a sudden find it to be a terrible thing.  

AND I CANNOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH:

Even with all of the new technology, cameras in the outfield, banging of drums, whatever... If you drop signs like you're the third base coach talking to the runner on first, or like you're the manager sending signs to the catcher, then it doesn't matter.  

I think it's utterly laughable that we think sign stealing is ok when done by a human, but not ok when we add a camera.  

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35 minutes ago, TheIronSheik said:

I think it's utterly laughable that we think sign stealing is ok when done by a human, but not ok when we add a camera. 

So any technology is OK to use? Maybe a microphone in the visitor dugout? One under the pitcher's rubber?

Not to mention the fact that if catcher has to throw down 5 signs for every pitch - and maybe even change sequence for every batter  - even when nobody is on base games are going to start taking 5 hours and nobody will care who's stealing signs because nobody will be watching.

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Why don't base runners use jet packs? There is no rule specifically against it.

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17 minutes ago, falguy said:

So any technology is OK to use? Maybe a microphone in the visitor dugout? One under the pitcher's rubber?

Not to mention the fact that if catcher has to throw down 5 signs for every pitch - and maybe even change sequence for every batter  - even when nobody is on base games are going to start taking 5 hours and nobody will care who's stealing signs because nobody will be watching.

Iron Shiek is the same guy who want to eliminate 8 warmup pitches to speed up the game but is ok with the catcher going through several sign changes/dialects/mound visits just to throw a pitch the opposition cant steal using their Ring camera in centerfield.

Edited by shadyridr

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I don’t think there’s an explicit rule stating that you can’t shine laser beams into the eyes of the opposing team while at bat. 
 

#newmoneyball

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I’m worried that it goes all the way to Luhnow and maybe he gets banned from baseball and everything is going to start going bad for the Astros. 

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3 hours ago, shadyridr said:

I'd say more

There were criminal charges and significant prison time for members of the Cards organization for the hacking scandal IIRC.  But the Astros would be penalized more for something that might not have even been against the rules at the time and certainly wasn't illegal?

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41 minutes ago, shadyridr said:

Why don't base runners use jet packs? There is no rule specifically against it.

I think we should just start with one player per team allowed to use it. Call it the DJ... the Designated Jetpack. 

I think it'd be cool if a guy as fat as Cecil Fielder could lead the league in stolen bases. 

I'm sure it would only be adopted by the AL though. They have a history of ____ing with the game like that. 

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You really have to credit a team that can put together a system to successfully exploit something like this. To de-code the signal, then steal it and relay it to a batter between the time of the signal and the pitch, in time for it to actually be useful information for the batter.  Its incredible to me.

 

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Just now, CletiusMaximus said:

You really have to credit a team that can put together a system to successfully exploit something like this. To de-code the signal, then steal it and relay it to a batter between the time of the signal and the pitch, in time for it to actually be useful information for the batter.  Its incredible to me.

 

They've done a better job than the pitcher and catcher giving signs. :lmao:

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6 hours ago, NREC34 said:

Yeah I feel they pushed the envelope and want to see what comes out of it. I think it probably goes way beyond the Astros. I’m pretty sure it was going on big time in the ‘18 ALCS and the Astros knew without a doubt that Boston was doing it. I think Beltran was the ringleader of the whole thing but I see an article today where he has doubled down on saying nothing illegal was done. 

I think the organization that ought to be most upset probably ought to be LA. Going to be interesting to see what happens in the coming months of the offseason. 

If earpieces/ electronic strike zone happens, I’ll be happy. Baseball needs to keep up with technology and the times.    

Alex Cora - 2017 Astros Bench Coach

Alex Cora - 2018 Boston Red Sox Manager

I learned it by watching you!

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2 minutes ago, Hov34 said:

This is how you'll have to relay signs against the Astros.  Games are going to be 7 hours long.  Deal with it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SftEFwbpmic&feature=youtu.be&t=10710

 

I'd prefer that the pitcher and catcher have some sort of device.  Catcher clicks the pitch and the pitcher's leg gets a single pulse, a double pulse or whatever number the pitch is.  This isn't the 1800's.  Baseball can have tech.

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5 hours ago, shadyridr said:

I expect a lengthy suspension for Hinch, loss of draft picks, and a big fine. Also, possible smaller suspensions for Cora & Beltran (20 games?)

Haha.  I almost feel like the Astros are slowly becoming baseball's Patriots.   I don't mind it.  I guess that's what dominating several seasons will do to you.  Only wish they could've won another title this year  :kicksrock: 

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5 minutes ago, TheIronSheik said:
9 minutes ago, Hov34 said:

This is how you'll have to relay signs against the Astros.  Games are going to be 7 hours long.  Deal with it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SftEFwbpmic&feature=youtu.be&t=10710

 

I'd prefer that the pitcher and catcher have some sort of device.  Catcher clicks the pitch and the pitcher's leg gets a single pulse, a double pulse or whatever number the pitch is.  This isn't the 1800's.  Baseball can have tech.

You'd probably be ok with the Astros hacking that and relaying it to your hitters.  You're really disappointing me GB.

 

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12 minutes ago, CletiusMaximus said:

You really have to credit a team that can put together a system to successfully exploit something like this. To de-code the signal, then steal it and relay it to a batter between the time of the signal and the pitch, in time for it to actually be useful information for the batter.  Its incredible to me.

 

Yep.  4D chess. 

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Put down a call for a breaking ball, wait for the trash can (17'), whistling (18'/19') and just fire one high and tight, several times...is what I'm surprised didn't happen.   

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5 minutes ago, Hov34 said:

You'd probably be ok with the Astros hacking that and relaying it to your hitters.  You're really disappointing me GB.

 

Sorry?

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6 minutes ago, Hov34 said:

You'd probably be ok with the Astros hacking that and relaying it to your hitters.  You're really disappointing me GB.

 

Honestly, if they could hack it, go for it.  :shrug:

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