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2020 MLB Spring Training (4 Viewers)

Capella said:
Honestly if they came to that conclusion they should take the banner too. How do you not?
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Astros 2017 WS is my only favorite professional sports team to ever win a championship.  So as much as I'd want to say you'll have to pry it from their cold dead hands, I probably agree here.  Shouldn't be rewarded for cheating.

 
How often were they doing this?  Was it every pitch all year or just the occasional big situation?  Did they start doing it more often as the last few years went on?

With that in mind, does this change how anyone views Altuve, Bregman, Springer?  We saw how the Stros were rocking Strasburg when he was tipping his pitches and then they went silent when he covered that up. 

How much of these guy's success in recent years was having that advantage?  Altuve's numbers didn't really notably improve in 2017 compared to pre-trash can banging.  Bregman and Springer's did (although Bregman only had his rookie season prior to it).

 
whoknew said:
Alex Cora is in BIG trouble. Wouldn't surprise me if he gets banned - 

Link

Cora was involved in developing both the banging scheme and utilizing the replay review room to decode and transmit signs. Cora participated in both schemes, and through his active participation, implicitly condoned the players’ conduct. Manfred said Cora's discipline won't be determined until MLB's investigation into allegations the Red Sox stole signs electronically in 2018 with Cora as manager was completed.
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Pete Rose says  :bye:

 
FreeBaGeL said:
How often were they doing this?  Was it every pitch all year or just the occasional big situation?  Did they start doing it more often as the last few years went on?

With that in mind, does this change how anyone views Altuve, Bregman, Springer?  We saw how the Stros were rocking Strasburg when he was tipping his pitches and then they went silent when he covered that up. 

How much of these guy's success in recent years was having that advantage?  Altuve's numbers didn't really notably improve in 2017 compared to pre-trash can banging.  Bregman and Springer's did (although Bregman only had his rookie season prior to it).
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Stros rocked Glasnow in game 5 of the LDS this year too. 

 
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I mean deep down they know the championship isn’t legitimate. That’s gotta be the biggest punishment of all.   😀

 
Honestly, when you look at the punishment given to the Braves for cheating on the international signings, this is a pretty light penalty. Coppolella got banned for life, the Braves lost 13 players and were effectively banned from signing international players for like 4 years.

4 draft picks and 1 year suspensions are peanuts in return for a World Series title. Are there any teams that wouldn’t make that trade off?

 
GroveDiesel said:
Honestly, when you look at the punishment given to the Braves for cheating on the international signings, this is a pretty light penalty. Coppolella got banned for life, the Braves lost 13 players and were effectively banned from signing international players for like 4 years.

4 draft picks and 1 year suspensions are peanuts in return for a World Series title. Are there any teams that wouldn’t make that trade off?
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I'd sign up for this today.  The Astros gained way more than $5MM in financial benefit and a WS Championship.  I don't think there's history for giving a postseason ban in pro sports but MLB needed to find a better penalty

 
Shula-holic said:
From what I've seen Cora was way more involved with this than Hinch.  Part of this is personal bias as having met Cora I've never liked him but he appears to be getting ready to take a big hit here.
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Report clearly indicates Cora was behind a lot of this.

 
Shula-holic said:
From what I've seen Cora was way more involved with this than Hinch.  Part of this is personal bias as having met Cora I've never liked him but he appears to be getting ready to take a big hit here.
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Which is why I thought Hinch would survive this.  MLB seemed to downplay him having an actual role and found him trustworthy in terms of trying to dissuade players from doing this. It seemed a lot like Sean Peyton’s role and ultimate punishment with Bountygate. 

 
I’m actually shocked at the draft picks as it hurts the undrafted player but on the flip side  also surprised there was no international $$ money punishment  

 
HellToupee said:
I’m actually shocked at the draft picks as it hurts the undrafted player but on the flip side  also surprised there was no international $$ money punishment  
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This is a good point. Screws 4 players out of slot money potentially. Wonder if MLB will just slide that down. 

 
Not that I want to see this happen, obviously because I’m an Astros fan, but MLB probably made a mistake going after the teams and ignoring players. The reports I saw all seemed to indicate this was all dreamt up by the players. And they are essentially getting off scot free. Seems odd. Like finding out the team is using steroids and suspending the GM. 

Again, glad they aren’t. But that would’ve made much more sense to me then draft picks and management suspensions. :shrug:

 
TheIronSheik said:
Not that I want to see this happen, obviously because I’m an Astros fan, but MLB probably made a mistake going after the teams and ignoring players. The reports I saw all seemed to indicate this was all dreamt up by the players. And they are essentially getting off scot free. Seems odd. Like finding out the team is using steroids and suspending the GM. 

Again, glad they aren’t. But that would’ve made much more sense to me then draft picks and management suspensions. :shrug:
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They can’t go after the players now. We’re 12 months from a likely MLB shutdown, they don’t want to poke the union. 

 
RUSF18 said:
Which is why I thought Hinch would survive this.  MLB seemed to downplay him having an actual role and found him trustworthy in terms of trying to dissuade players from doing this. It seemed a lot like Sean Peyton’s role and ultimate punishment with Bountygate. 
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Hinch was the manager, he could have stopped it if he wanted to. Him damaging the monitor instead of confronting the players and Cora directly is cowardly and strikes me as wanting to maintain deniability without actually doing anything to really stop it. 

 
Smack Tripper said:
Trevor Bauer's feed is sensational tonight... amazing stuff... funny but interesting info too... as a yankee fan it gives you pause about giving cole 324 million
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Im not sure why. The cheating helped the hitters not the pitchers. 

 
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Has anyone seen the actual findings of the report?  Or is that behind a paywall?  Seems like I can only find it on The Atlantic.  I know they said it was "pretty damning" for Lunhow, but I haven't heard anything as to why.

 
shadyridr said:
It's posted in this thread
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I think I found the link.  But from what it says, I still don't see why it's "damning" to Lunhow.  It actually sounds like he was pretty much exonerated from any knowledge of it but was punished because he should have known as the GM.  And that's fine.  No argument there.  But Heyman seems to be going after Lunhow hard.  He even posted a Tweet where he accused Lunhow of calling the people below him "low level employees" when that's not what he said at all.  I get the picture that Heyman is not a fan of Lunhow.

And I'm not defending Lunhow at all.  I mean, I know as much about him as I do any GM of any sport: very little.  Either I'm missing something big or Heyman hates Lunhow.

 
GroveDiesel said:
4 draft picks and 1 year suspensions are peanuts in return for a World Series title. Are there any teams that wouldn’t make that trade off?
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Seems like they should vacate the title.  Not award to the other team, just vacate the title and have that asterisks by the season in the record books.  Punishment they received for cheating seems light.

 
TheIronSheik said:
I think I found the link.  But from what it says, I still don't see why it's "damning" to Lunhow.  It actually sounds like he was pretty much exonerated from any knowledge of it but was punished because he should have known as the GM.  And that's fine.  No argument there.  But Heyman seems to be going after Lunhow hard.  He even posted a Tweet where he accused Lunhow of calling the people below him "low level employees" when that's not what he said at all.  I get the picture that Heyman is not a fan of Lunhow.

And I'm not defending Lunhow at all.  I mean, I know as much about him as I do any GM of any sport: very little.  Either I'm missing something big or Heyman hates Lunhow.
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He called them low level employees in his non "apology"

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mlb.nbcsports.com/2020/01/13/jeff-luhnow-issues-statement-in-wake-of-suspension-firing/amp/

 
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shadyridr said:
He called them low level employees in his non "apology"

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mlb.nbcsports.com/2020/01/13/jeff-luhnow-issues-statement-in-wake-of-suspension-firing/amp/
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No he didn't.  He said it was "lower level."  That's a big difference.  The way Heyman framed it, it sounded like he took a shot at peons below him.  He said "Even in his exit he continues to treat them poorly", then says he called them "low level employees.  That's a huge difference.  He changed the word to make it sound like he was taking a shot at them.  Lunhow was not taking a shot at them at all.  Lunhow said that he did not know of what was going on and that it was lower level employees who conspired to do this.  Which the commissioner agreed with.

So not sure why Heyman decided to try to frame it as Lunhow was treating employees badly. 

 
TheIronSheik said:
I think I found the link.  But from what it says, I still don't see why it's "damning" to Lunhow.  It actually sounds like he was pretty much exonerated from any knowledge of it but was punished because he should have known as the GM.  And that's fine.  No argument there.  But Heyman seems to be going after Lunhow hard.  He even posted a Tweet where he accused Lunhow of calling the people below him "low level employees" when that's not what he said at all.  I get the picture that Heyman is not a fan of Lunhow.

And I'm not defending Lunhow at all.  I mean, I know as much about him as I do any GM of any sport: very little.  Either I'm missing something big or Heyman hates Lunhow.
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My guess (I’m KILLING IT with those in this thread) is that Boras doesn’t like Lunhow because of some history of not paying up for his guys and Heyman carries water for him. 

 
TheIronSheik said:
I think I found the link.  But from what it says, I still don't see why it's "damning" to Lunhow.  It actually sounds like he was pretty much exonerated from any knowledge of it but was punished because he should have known as the GM.  And that's fine.  No argument there.  But Heyman seems to be going after Lunhow hard.  He even posted a Tweet where he accused Lunhow of calling the people below him "low level employees" when that's not what he said at all.  I get the picture that Heyman is not a fan of Lunhow.

And I'm not defending Lunhow at all.  I mean, I know as much about him as I do any GM of any sport: very little.  Either I'm missing something big or Heyman hates Lunhow.
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I think he's reacting to Luhnow's body of work and in particular the culture he fostered in Baseball Operations with the Cardinals and Astros.  It's pretty apparent at this point that he may be a world class numbers guy but he should never manage people. The report covers that to some degree.

 
Ron Swanson said:
I think he's reacting to Luhnow's body of work and in particular the culture he fostered in Baseball Operations with the Cardinals and Astros.  It's pretty apparent at this point that he may be a world class numbers guy but he should never manage people. The report covers that to some degree.
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And I don't disagree.  It just seems weird to make him out to be this evil person.  

 
TheIronSheik said:
I think I found the link.  But from what it says, I still don't see why it's "damning" to Lunhow.  It actually sounds like he was pretty much exonerated from any knowledge of it but was punished because he should have known as the GM.  And that's fine.  No argument there.  But Heyman seems to be going after Lunhow hard.  He even posted a Tweet where he accused Lunhow of calling the people below him "low level employees" when that's not what he said at all.  I get the picture that Heyman is not a fan of Lunhow.

And I'm not defending Lunhow at all.  I mean, I know as much about him as I do any GM of any sport: very little.  Either I'm missing something big or Heyman hates Lunhow.
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The report went after the culture: "But while no one can dispute that Luhnow’s baseball operations department is an industry leader in its analytics, it is very clear to me that the culture of the baseball operations department, manifesting itself in the way its employees are treated, its relations with other Clubs, and its relations with the media and external stakeholders, has been very problematic. At least in my view, the baseball operations department’s insular culture – one that valued and rewarded results over other considerations, combined with a staff of individuals who often lacked direction or sufficient oversight, led, at least in part, to the Brandon Taubman incident, the Club’s admittedly inappropriate and inaccurate response to that incident, and finally, to an environment that allowed the conduct described in this report to have occurred."

 
TheIronSheik said:
No he didn't.  He said it was "lower level."  That's a big difference.  The way Heyman framed it, it sounded like he took a shot at peons below him.  He said "Even in his exit he continues to treat them poorly", then says he called them "low level employees.  That's a huge difference.  He changed the word to make it sound like he was taking a shot at them.  Lunhow was not taking a shot at them at all.  Lunhow said that he did not know of what was going on and that it was lower level employees who conspired to do this.  Which the commissioner agreed with.

So not sure why Heyman decided to try to frame it as Lunhow was treating employees badly. 
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OK

The commish ripped the culture of the organization to shreds too so I am not exactly sure why you are defending them.

 
Bottom line, Lunhow's apology was a non-apology and he should be raked over the coals for it. You are arguing over two letters "er" which make very little difference to Heyman's point.

Hinch's apology was much classier and avoided any of the pointing fingers that Lunhow did.

 
TheIronSheik said:
I'm not defending him.  I'm calling out Heyman.  
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Heyman is not the only one ripping him. From Erik Boland:

Well, at least Hinch in his statement didn’t attempt to throw pretty much all lower-level employees under the bus as Luhnow’s embarrassing statement did. Luhnow demonstrating the same PR savvy he did during the World Series.
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shadyridr said:
Bottom line, Lunhow's apology was a non-apology and he should be raked over the coals for it. You are arguing over two letters "er" which make very little difference to Heyman's point.

Hinch's apology was much classier and avoided any of the pointing fingers that Lunhow did.
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screw hinch, definant until the end and he is a fraud for acting like he is either soft for not stopping it or for not owning it.

 
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