There's some buzz Antonio Brown's foot issue is worse than the frostbite being reported. As of 8.7.19, how confident are you he'll be ready to go for Week 1?
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Antonio Brown Foot Issue - How Confident Are You He'll Be Ready Week 1? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Joe Bryant
- Start date
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
Looking at the pictures..not very. Lots of tissue loss deep into the skin will take time to rejuvenate. Running and cutting will rip them open again unless fully healed. If you have even played anything with a blister on your heel you know the pain is severe, this is way worse.
jm192
Footballguy
I don't think it's a deep tissue thing.
I'm a physician that works as a hospitalist--an internist that works exclusively in the hospital. And while I would never claim to know enough orthopedics to tell you how long a thumb or an ankle will keep player x out--I do see a lot of infected feet.
This to me looks very superficial. It looks like the outermost layer is infected and is peeling/sloughing. The layers underneath appear healthy.
You don't see any swelling or redness to imply more significant deep tissue infection.
I'm sure he's got some discomfort with it, but a month from now, I'd say he's highly likely to be just fine.
I'm a physician that works as a hospitalist--an internist that works exclusively in the hospital. And while I would never claim to know enough orthopedics to tell you how long a thumb or an ankle will keep player x out--I do see a lot of infected feet.
This to me looks very superficial. It looks like the outermost layer is infected and is peeling/sloughing. The layers underneath appear healthy.
You don't see any swelling or redness to imply more significant deep tissue infection.
I'm sure he's got some discomfort with it, but a month from now, I'd say he's highly likely to be just fine.
Not a lot of difference between “not very confident” and “not confident at all.” Needs an option for “somewhat confident, but closer to 50/50.”
As an owner I am nervous and won’t be surprised if he misses time. But I also think there’s a decent chance he comes back within the monh still to go before the season starts.
As an owner I am nervous and won’t be surprised if he misses time. But I also think there’s a decent chance he comes back within the monh still to go before the season starts.
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leftcoastheel
Footballguy
Agree with you again. OAK is the zombie land of receivers. Carr is just awful. Look at Cooper in OAK vs. Cooper in DAL. 'Nuff said for me.
And yeah getting frostbite on your feet from a post-workout recovery as a 31 year old professional athlete is just not confidence inspiring at this point. And I've had some bad soft-tissue foot injuries from overuse. They can really set you back A LONG WAY in A LOT of ways.
Raptors409
Footballguy
Operating with 0% confidence he plays Week 1.
Jim Otto
Footballguy
Manster
Footballguy
And, he's Antonio Brown......I know at least one owner in my leagues will reach for him based on his history, which takes any decision I would possibly have regarding drafting him, away
Sorry about getting off-topic of the foot issue, Joe...
Manster
Footballguy
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
On a list of “pinkeye” to “slipped in the shower”, “frostbite” has to be the weirdest injury ever.Joe Bryant said:
...and not an insignificant one. Frostbite can result in partial amputation. I dunno the extent, but if he loses a toe or a piece of foot that’s really really bad.
For now I’m assuming this is minor, and he won’t miss time. But there’s certainly cause for concern. My buddy who paid $95/$500 for him is certainly concerned.
Jim Otto
Footballguy
Try again homie. I'm not a dynasty player but you MAY be able to tell why I'm a bit biased based on my user name and icon... but it's probably before your time kiddo.
2018 Derek Carr (OAK) 381/553 - 68.9 - 4,049 -19/10
So a nearly 70% completion percentage for over 4000 yards and a 19/10 TD to INT ratio (with no real receivers other than a TE) puts him on your DND list. Ok cool, good luck with that mindset. Like I said, you do you boo boo.
Thanks. So in your opinion, how painful do you think this is for him now? Can you expand on "I'm sure he's got some discomfort with it"?
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jm192
Footballguy
It may a bit tender. And someone who works a regular job—teacher, plumber, etc probably tolerates it just fine. It’s a slight annoyance.
If you’re a pro-bowl receiver, the force you’re generating with your routes /cuts/breaks probably make it worse.
Let's drop the boo hoo and steer it back to football.
Where do you see Brown and Carr ranking this year at their positions?
How much negative are you putting on them missing time on the field together thus far?
Manster
Footballguy
I'll say this and then I'm done cuz we're off topic...
Carr's numbers don't tell nearly the whole story....he looks like a deer in the headlights in the pocket, and could not consistently hit guys downfield, or guys in tight coverage.....his high percentage is due to checking down pretty much.....Big Ben he is not! I may be wrong, but I see huge disappointment for Brown owners based on where he'll be drafted.....look at Copper at Dallas and tell me he was the issue in Oakland....
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Thanks. That's different than what I would have thought. I know much a blister from hiking can hurt. Brown's situation seems 100x worse. It doesn't scale that way in your opinion?
jm192
Footballguy
This is all me analyzing instagram pictures, but
The out layer of skin looks dry. If there was some massive blistering, it’s way better. If you’ve had a blister “pop” they typically look wrinkly and don’t form well to your skin.
Brown has a lot of infected appearing skin, peeling in several different places, but it’s all flat. It all forms to the rest of his skin as it should. This tells me new skin has replaced the damaged skin was. That sharp stinging pain you get when you have a blister should be better.
I don’t buy there was ever frostbite. I’ll say I don’t know a lot about cryogenic chambers. But I’ve seen patients with frostbite from winter weather.
Typically, frost bite wouldn’t involve just the bottom of the foot. People get severe skin necrosis. These types of wounds often require debridement and extensive wound care for several months.
I have a hard time believing he didn’t take pictures of the feet when they were way worse, but wants us to see it at this point.
Logic dictates he tells the team if he has frost bite. They have access to the top doctors in the world. Frost bite itself doesn’t get your 50 million dollar man into a foot specialist?
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Imagine the schmuck who hasn’t paid any attention all summer drafting Gurley, Tyreek, AB & Gordon, thinking he just might go 13-0.
Stoli
Footballguy
nirad3
Footballguy
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Nope, just fit the narrative of guys who don’t have the ADP you would have expected back in February.
Whoever heard of a player posting WR4 & WR1 back to back, no change in situation, and ends up ECR WR7 the following summer?
smbkrypt24
Footballguy
AB and Tyreek seem like good picks. If they picked those players I would assume
1. Tyreek 2. Gurley 3. AB 4. Gordon
I think I would love this start. Let me have that.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
From what I’ve heard / read, it seems like it doesn’t matter how he looks. For one, because the type of injury gets worse with repetitive use, and for another, because the team wants to avoid that degradation so may be keeping him in bubble wrap.
He could be 100% all year, but that doesn’t help fantasy owners if he’s sitting on the sidelines when the rams are on either side of a blowout.
food for thought.
Stompin' Tom Connors
Footballguy
I'll take a shot -- as I think people vastly underrate Carr's talent and ability. The guy has been hampered by a broken back and a broken offense for most of his career with the Raiders, and I think his relatively poor end-of-season ranking is more a function of this than him being a poor QB.
I think Carr is a lock for Top 20 with the new weapons he has, and can easily see him ending the year in the 13-18 range. If his line gels and his weapons stay healthy? Fantastic upside.
AB is Top 5 when healthy, period. This issue is concerning, but I don't see it preventing him from missing games given that I do agree with @jm192 that it's more sloughing/tenderness than structural tissue damage. He'll play unless his feet fall off.
That said, I agree with @leftcoastheel and @Hot Sauce Guy that at this point of his career, AB should have been more careful in treating the injury/not putting himself in the position to have this kind of injury in the first place, and the weirdness of it could mask a more serious unspoken issue.
I doubt that's the case but we'll see. As to how it would impact his rank if it still was an issue come WK1? Maybe drop him within Top 12, but not outside of it. It may slow him down, but it won't prevent him from playing, and he still has phenomenal hands and ability to get separation right from the line using more than just his feet alone (hands, body, head jukes, etc.).
Maggot Brain
Footballguy
Not Technically frostbite, but Antonio Brown's feet might have gotten worse in cryotherapy
The questions continue regarding new Raiders wide receiver Antonio Brown and his feet.
We tried to answer some of the medical questions four days ago. But yesterday a new report emerged of “frostbite” from a cryotherapy machine.
This did not seem to make medical sense.
For one, cryotherapy treatment is for just a few minutes. Frostbite doesn’t happen that quickly — with or without proper protection. Second, the pattern of injury does not appear to be frostbite, as the cold causes vasoconstriction that would be most prominent in the toes and the cold air touches more of the circumference of toes. Also, the sole of the foot would be most protected, as one typically stands on a platform so the cold air doesn’t really touch that part of the skin surface.
If there was a “malfunction” or liquid nitrogen leak that pooled at the bottom of the feet, the arch would be most affected, as it is exposed away from the standing surface. And it was not in Brown’s case.
Finally, none of this explains the green (likely psuedomonas infection) or the macerated foot appearance.
Even if someone used the chamber longer than prescribed or there was a malfunction, one would feel the pain and burn of frostbite before real damage was done. Further, frostbite turns the skin black, which we do not see on Brown’s feet.
Today, a clarification comes from the NFL Network’s Ian Rapoport, which describes a “cryogenic chamber mishap” (which does not necessarily mean “frostbite” but could “burn” the feet from the cold). This report coupled with our previous analysis makes complete sense to me.
My opinion is that Brown was suffering from macerated feet from too much moisture while training. In some ways, this is a milder form of “trench foot” seen in soldiers from World War I. This medically seems to be the primary problem.
Assuming Brown then used a cryotherapy machine without proper foot protection, in wet socks or with “wet” macerated feet, the cold would conduct against the moisture. It would then freeze the skin only on the moist soles of the outer layer of skin on his feet and not on his toes, tops of his feet or arch.
This conduction is comparable to how one can tolerate cold in freezing weather for a few minutes without a jacket but cannot survive a few minutes in the freezing cold ocean. The superficial moist skin could indeed freeze. This is not technically frostbite, but it certainly could have exacerbated the underlying condition with frost burn.
This seems to be the most logical explanation.
As is often the case when you hear two different stories about the same thing, the truth lies in the middle. Indeed, the macerated moist skin is the main issue that causes the superinfection with pseudomonas, but the cryotherapy mishap didn’t help the situation.
In any case, it still seems Brown is on path to return well before the regular season.
On the HBO show “Hard Knocks,” it was demonstrated that he could run but that hard cuts put extra pressure on the soles of his feet and cause potentially more delamination.
This should resolve soon. It might affect his preseason time with new quarterback Derek Carr but should not come close to affecting his regular season availability.
The questions continue regarding new Raiders wide receiver Antonio Brown and his feet.
We tried to answer some of the medical questions four days ago. But yesterday a new report emerged of “frostbite” from a cryotherapy machine.
This did not seem to make medical sense.
For one, cryotherapy treatment is for just a few minutes. Frostbite doesn’t happen that quickly — with or without proper protection. Second, the pattern of injury does not appear to be frostbite, as the cold causes vasoconstriction that would be most prominent in the toes and the cold air touches more of the circumference of toes. Also, the sole of the foot would be most protected, as one typically stands on a platform so the cold air doesn’t really touch that part of the skin surface.
If there was a “malfunction” or liquid nitrogen leak that pooled at the bottom of the feet, the arch would be most affected, as it is exposed away from the standing surface. And it was not in Brown’s case.
Finally, none of this explains the green (likely psuedomonas infection) or the macerated foot appearance.
Even if someone used the chamber longer than prescribed or there was a malfunction, one would feel the pain and burn of frostbite before real damage was done. Further, frostbite turns the skin black, which we do not see on Brown’s feet.
Today, a clarification comes from the NFL Network’s Ian Rapoport, which describes a “cryogenic chamber mishap” (which does not necessarily mean “frostbite” but could “burn” the feet from the cold). This report coupled with our previous analysis makes complete sense to me.
My opinion is that Brown was suffering from macerated feet from too much moisture while training. In some ways, this is a milder form of “trench foot” seen in soldiers from World War I. This medically seems to be the primary problem.
Assuming Brown then used a cryotherapy machine without proper foot protection, in wet socks or with “wet” macerated feet, the cold would conduct against the moisture. It would then freeze the skin only on the moist soles of the outer layer of skin on his feet and not on his toes, tops of his feet or arch.
This conduction is comparable to how one can tolerate cold in freezing weather for a few minutes without a jacket but cannot survive a few minutes in the freezing cold ocean. The superficial moist skin could indeed freeze. This is not technically frostbite, but it certainly could have exacerbated the underlying condition with frost burn.
This seems to be the most logical explanation.
As is often the case when you hear two different stories about the same thing, the truth lies in the middle. Indeed, the macerated moist skin is the main issue that causes the superinfection with pseudomonas, but the cryotherapy mishap didn’t help the situation.
In any case, it still seems Brown is on path to return well before the regular season.
On the HBO show “Hard Knocks,” it was demonstrated that he could run but that hard cuts put extra pressure on the soles of his feet and cause potentially more delamination.
This should resolve soon. It might affect his preseason time with new quarterback Derek Carr but should not come close to affecting his regular season availability.
DepthCharts
Footballguy
Probably the most intelligent educated answer I have seen on this board in over 2 decades. Thanks for being here JM192
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Rhythmdoctor
Footballguy
ponchsox
Footballguy
It's TMZ. But I don't like the sound of this. "Sprinter Justin Gatlin says he suffered a similar cryotherapy injury as star receiver Antonio Brown -- and says it took him MONTHS to get healthy."
https://www.tmz.com/2019/08/08/justin-gatlin-antonio-brown-cryotherapy-feet-injury-frostbite/
https://www.tmz.com/2019/08/08/justin-gatlin-antonio-brown-cryotherapy-feet-injury-frostbite/
nightmare
Footballguy
We saw A Brown running on Hard Knocks. Do Sprinters deal with pain like football players?
A Brown might manage this by not practicing(just doing walk throughs), then play on Sundays.
dickey moe
Fingerpicker
Anyone else not surprised by Brown smiling while posting a smiley of his torn-### feet?
Jacksonke1
Footballguy
Somewhere, in places we don't like to think about, there are people who would pay good money for videos of AB's feet.
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
why in the world is he even upright until that #### heals....
jm192
Footballguy
True frost bite would take months to get over. But IF this was frost bite, he's months into the healing process. People have ginormous blisters, they have hard black patches of dead skin and sometimes deeper dead tissue. Going strictly by the picture, he's not someone who had frost bite 2 weeks ago and here we are today.
kittenmittens
Footballguy
Feet always heal really slow too... Furthest thing from the heart, less blood flow.... And AB is in his 30s now...
I'm skeptical that he's back on time, especially since hes not resting it...
IANAD but it seems really dumb to have him running around on the damaged feet. Isn't that going to make healing slower and risk reinjuring?
I'm skeptical that he's back on time, especially since hes not resting it...
IANAD but it seems really dumb to have him running around on the damaged feet. Isn't that going to make healing slower and risk reinjuring?
fightingillini
Footballguy
I am not worried about Brown being back in time....I am worried about his rapport with Carr, which he is missing valuable practice time. Big Ben knew EXACTLY what Brown will do in certain situations and was able to deliver. It's going to take time for Carr to get that experience.
So I am passing on Brown at his ADP.
So I am passing on Brown at his ADP.
leftcoastheel
Footballguy
Interesting.Joe Bryant said:
First, we don't know what happened - maybe the administrator of the machine screwed up or the machine had a mishap. But this certainly appears to be pretty ridiculous from a decision making standpoint as a pro athlete.
Second, I don't know much about frostbite, but I've had many soft tissue issues/injuries over the years from athletics. The worst *by far* was plantar fasciitis. The degenerative injury sucked in and of itself. But arguably the bigger problem is how much the ancillary effects screw you up. You can't run. You can't lift weights with your legs (you can barely go to the gym). You can't practice/do any of your sports/hobbies/athletics. You compensate when you're walking - even in a boot - which causes other issues (I wound up having tendinitis all over my feet from compensation). Foot injuries take you out of the game and mess up your life - and set you way back. I think, barring a quick recovery, this is my main concern: being in shape, rapport with Carr, getting reps in a new offense, etc.
Wish him well, but I'll be passing at current ADP.
[Chase Williams WPXI] 10 practices into training camp and Antonio Brown has already gone “radio silent” with the Raiders. They have zero clue where he is or what the progress of the foot injury
https://twitter.com/chasepwilliams/status/1159316479801794561
https://twitter.com/chasepwilliams/status/1159316479801794561
-jb-
Footballguy
