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Gopher State

Has the Democratic Party lost it focus

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8 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

Sure...again do you think the ER turns people with no insurance away and illegals?  Where do you think the money comes from?

Read this...it will educate you.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2018/02/26/how-american-citizens-finance-health-care-for-undocumented-immigrants/#61c163fc12c4

Current federal policy is to prohibit federal tax funding of health care to unauthorized immigrants through either Medicaid or Obamacare. Nevertheless, rough estimates suggest that the nation's 3.9 million uninsured immigrants who are unauthorized likely receive about $4.6 billion in health services paid for by federal taxes, $2.8 billion in health services financed by state and local taxpayers, another $3.0 bankrolled through "cost-shifting" i.e., higher payments by insured patients to cover hospital uncompensated care losses, and roughly $1.5 billion in physician charity care. In addition to these amounts, unauthorized immigrants likely benefit from at least $0.9 billion in implicit federal subsidies due to the tax exemption for nonprofit hospitals and another $5.7 billion in tax expenditures from the employer tax exclusion.

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Just now, unckeyherb said:

The question was whether or not to provide healthcare to illegal immigrants.  They all raised their hand.  Those people are not paying into anything.  Most candidates are proposing some form of Medicare for all. How can you be this obtuse.

It was whether their plans would provide care.  Someone can answer yes...without meaning giving free healthcare to illegal immigrants.

And yes...plenty are paying into things.

HTH

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4 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

You think people going to the er without insurance now are paid for by tax dollars?

Tell us Sheriff Sho.....how is this being paid for? You seem to know it all about this. 

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3 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

It was whether their plans would provide care.  Someone can answer yes...without meaning giving free healthcare to illegal immigrants.

And yes...plenty are paying into things.

HTH

Would they get healthcare without paying? That’s free.

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33 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

Sure...again do you think the ER turns people with no insurance away and illegals?  Where do you think the money comes from?

Then why did they(dem candidates) all have to raise their hands if they (illegal immigrants) are all covered already? 

Edited by parasaurolophus

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They're not covered. sho is saying, most likely, that somebody bears the eventual hidden costs of undocumented alien health care assistance. As rock likes to say, and Saints, too, it's baked into the cake already in terms of what the consumer pays for insurance and medical care, passed on by the hospitals to the companies and/or consumers.

It's still free to the recipient, though.

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12 hours ago, parasaurolophus said:

Then why did they(dem candidates) all have to raise their hands if they (illegal immigrants) are all covered already? 

The question they raised their hands to was " Raise your hand if your government plan would provide coverage for undocumented immigrants."  

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13 minutes ago, Encumbrance said:

 

It's still free to the recipient, though.

Is it?

For emergency services, they’d get treated but I assume given a bill that they could never pay. (Is that, then, free?) I also wonder about the quality of follow up care.

Wouldn’t non-emergency stuff be pretty hard to get? Doctors wanting up front money before servicing?  

All this seems pretty terrible to me.

I don’t work in the industry though and I’m not sure exactly how this all works. Anyone please correct me or elaborate where appropriate.

 

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1 minute ago, Juxtatarot said:

For emergency services, they’d get treated but I assume given a bill that they could never pay. (Is that, then, free?)

Good point. But I wonder how they would be billed sans address and real identification. I'll echo your point about maybe this would be a good question for a policy wonk or someone in the industry to discuss.

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43 minutes ago, Mile High said:

The question they raised their hands to was " Raise your hand if your government plan would provide coverage for undocumented immigrants."  

Sho was bringing up the they get care anyway argument with ER visits. If they get care anyway, we wouldnt be talking about it and they wouldnt ask the question. 

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19 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

Sho was bringing up the they get care anyway argument with ER visits. If they get care anyway, we wouldnt be talking about it and they wouldnt ask the question. 

I brought up that they get care through emergency room visits and we all pay for it.  As an aside to the conversation that evolved.  I had already mentioned here and elsewhere what the candidates raised their hands for.

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45 minutes ago, Mile High said:

Exactly.  This free health care for illegal immigrants is mostly Trumps campaign rhetoric.  Not one Democrat running for president has said it. 

No it isnt. Nobody is arguing it would be free for all illegal immigrants. 

What people are arguing is that it would be free for a heck of a lot of them. 

There arent a lot of specifics, but look at sanders bill that was proposed. (That several candidates cosponsored) His proposal would provide free healthcare to a large amount of people. Families earning below 29k would pay nothing and would receive vision, dental, and long term care coverage in addition to healthcare. The average wages of an illegal immigrant family is 36k. Simple logic woukd dictate that means there are plenty below 29k. Even if we somehow mentally contort ourselves to argue that most people somehow just fall right around the average it would still mean that millions of undocumented immigrants would get healthcare, vision, dental, and long term care for 280 bucks a year.(4% of 7k). 

Yeah ok guys you win. Nobody is getting free care. They are paying about 23 bucks a month for vision, health, dental, and long term care with zero deductibles or any other out of pocket. Wow, how disingenuous we have all been. 

 

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20 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

No it isnt. Nobody is arguing it would be free for all illegal immigrants. 

What people are arguing is that it would be free for a heck of a lot of them. 

There arent a lot of specifics, but look at sanders bill that was proposed. (That several candidates cosponsored) His proposal would provide free healthcare to a large amount of people. Families earning below 29k would pay nothing and would receive vision, dental, and long term care coverage in addition to healthcare. The average wages of an illegal immigrant family is 36k. Simple logic woukd dictate that means there are plenty below 29k. Even if we somehow mentally contort ourselves to argue that most people somehow just fall right around the average it would still mean that millions of undocumented immigrants would get healthcare, vision, dental, and long term care for 280 bucks a year.(4% of 7k). 

Yeah ok guys you win. Nobody is getting free care. They are paying about 23 bucks a month for vision, health, dental, and long term care with zero deductibles or any other out of pocket. Wow, how disingenuous we have all been. 

 

So the same health care as America Citizens.  If they are hard working productive members of their communities why shouldn't they be get the same health care as other hard working productive members of their communities?

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8 hours ago, Mile High said:

So the same health care as America Citizens.  If they are hard working productive members of their communities why shouldn't they be get the same health care as other hard working productive members of their communities?

Haha. Shift gears! Shift gears! 

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9 hours ago, parasaurolophus said:

 

 

What people are arguing is that it would be free for a heck of a lot of them. 

 

 

I’ve got to be honest.  This is the first I’ve heard this.

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6 hours ago, Juxtatarot said:

I’ve got to be honest.  This is the first I’ve heard this.

How does healthcare in the ER work for uninsured American citizens? Do any of them get it "free" (as in, they never pay?)

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26 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

Has this thread lost its focus?

Some of us, by the way we act, may even have lost our minds...

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5 hours ago, msommer said:

How does healthcare in the ER work for uninsured American citizens? Do any of them get it "free" (as in, they never pay?)

Lol no

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12 hours ago, Juxtatarot said:

I’ve got to be honest.  This is the first I’ve heard this.

What have you heard?

Have you heard trump say it would be free for millions?

Have you heard that democrats are offering free health care for illegal immigrants? 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

What have you heard?

Have you heard trump say it would be free for millions?

Have you heard that democrats are offering free health care for illegal immigrants? 

 

 

1. Usually just that Democrats want to provide free healthcare to illegal immigrants.  Not with any nuance or explanation.

2. I don't remember what Trump has said specifically although fresh in my mind yesterday was his campaign ad about it that was misleading.  

3. I have heard the claim.  

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13 minutes ago, Juxtatarot said:

1. Usually just that Democrats want to provide free healthcare to illegal immigrants.  Not with any nuance or explanation.

2. I don't remember what Trump has said specifically although fresh in my mind yesterday was his campaign ad about it that was misleading.  

3. I have heard the claim.  

#1 is a true statement. The only way people are countering #1 is to say it wouldnt be free for all of them. Thats a silly way to argue.

If people were making claims about illegal immigrants getting free care but according to the plans released it would only be a few thousand or even 50k or 100k then i would argue it would be disingenuous to say "democrats want to give illegals free healthcare". 

But since we are talking about giving free health care to millions of them i think it is disingenuous to argue the "it wouldnt be free for all of them" as a defense. 

It is hard to come up with an analogy. Djacksons cowboys references come to mind. "I dont like the cowboys because they are a bunch of criminals" is something i am sure sports fans have heard. Basically a bs blanket statement since the vast majority of dallas cowboys were law abiding citizens. Well lets say that half of the roster were convicted criminals. Would you correct somebody that said that then? 

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8 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

#1 is a true statement. The only way people are countering #1 is to say it wouldnt be free for all of them. Thats a silly way to argue.

If people were making claims about illegal immigrants getting free care but according to the plans released it would only be a few thousand or even 50k or 100k then i would argue it would be disingenuous to say "democrats want to give illegals free healthcare". 

But since we are talking about giving free health care to millions of them i think it is disingenuous to argue the "it wouldnt be free for all of them" as a defense. 

It is hard to come up with an analogy. Djacksons cowboys references come to mind. "I dont like the cowboys because they are a bunch of criminals" is something i am sure sports fans have heard. Basically a bs blanket statement since the vast majority of dallas cowboys were law abiding citizens. Well lets say that half of the roster were convicted criminals. Would you correct somebody that said that then? 

From what they have released/said would you say Biden's and Buttigeig's plans are free to illegal immigrants?  

When you read this statement from Trump's ad...

Quote

"They are all the same," Trump’s ad said over the image of the candidates raising their hands. "These Democrats support giving illegal immigrants free health care at our expense."

... don't you see what's being done?  They are basically claiming citizens will be paying the health care for non-citizens.  That's indefensible.  

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9 hours ago, Juxtatarot said:

From what they have released/said would you say Biden's and Buttigeig's plans are free to illegal immigrants?  

When you read this statement from Trump's ad...

... don't you see what's being done?  They are basically claiming citizens will be paying the health care for non-citizens.  That's indefensible.  

I may be wrong about this, so correct me if so.  M4A would be paid through some form of tax.  Right?  Citizens would pay this via income tax most likely.  The result would be “free” healthcare at the point of service as it has been paid for through Medicare.  

Someone here illegally, who has not paid into this system receives healthcare.  They do not pay, as the system is set up to not charge at the point of service anymore.  The person that paid is the tax payer.  

Am I wrong?

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9 hours ago, Juxtatarot said:

From what they have released/said would you say Biden's and Buttigeig's plans are free to illegal immigrants?  

When you read this statement from Trump's ad...

... don't you see what's being done?  They are basically claiming citizens will be paying the health care for non-citizens.  That's indefensible.  

Bidens "plan" would absolutely be free healthcare for millions. Pete hasnt released income thresholds or other details like that as far as i can tell. But do you really think he will be charging a family that earns less than 29k for health care when the other candidates arent?

So yes. American citizens will be paying for millions of illegal immigrants to get free healthcare. 

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11 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

So yes. American citizens will be paying for millions of illegal immigrants to get free healthcare. 

It's a surprising fact that's often overlooked in the immigration debate.

Undocumented immigrants pay billions of dollars in federal taxes annually, between tax returns filed and taxes deducted from paychecks, experts estimate.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/04/15/us/taxes-undocumented-immigrants/index.html

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13 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

Bidens "plan" would absolutely be free healthcare for millions. Pete hasnt released income thresholds or other details like that as far as i can tell. But do you really think he will be charging a family that earns less than 29k for health care when the other candidates arent?

So yes. American citizens will be paying for millions of illegal immigrants to get free healthcare. 

Are you sure about Biden’s?

Quote

Today, all the Democratic candidates say they would provide coverage to undocumented residents. There is no mention of them specifically in the plan posted on Biden's website, although a Biden campaign official told Politico this week that people in the U.S. who are undocumented would be able to purchase plans on the health insurance exchanges, but would not qualify for subsidies.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/07/20/743248732/radical-or-incremental-whats-really-in-joe-bidens-health-plan

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2 hours ago, Juxtatarot said:

Well i guess maybe not. Lots of moving targets these days. He was pretty clear in the video in this link. And then of course at the debates he certainly didnt say that they wouldnt get any subsidies,but it seems currently you are correct  and i am not. 

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12 hours ago, unckeyherb said:

I may be wrong about this, so correct me if so.  M4A would be paid through some form of tax.  Right?  Citizens would pay this via income tax most likely.  The result would be “free” healthcare at the point of service as it has been paid for through Medicare.  

Someone here illegally, who has not paid into this system receives healthcare.  They do not pay, as the system is set up to not charge at the point of service anymore.  The person that paid is the tax payer.  

Am I wrong?

Think it depends on the individual....someone here illegally getting paid in cash under the table, you'd be correct.  That's not the case in MOST cases.  They do pay into the federal and state tax structures through their paychecks as required by law.  In other words, its incorrect to assume that because they are here illegally they aren't paying into the system.

Edited by The Commish
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4 minutes ago, The Commish said:

Think it depends on the individual....someone here illegally getting paid in cash under the table, you'd be correct.  That's not the case in MOST cases.  They do pay into the federal and state tax structures through their paychecks as required by law.  In other words, its incorrect to assume that because they are here illegally they aren't paying into the system.

:goodposting:

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15 minutes ago, The Commish said:

Think it depends on the individual....someone here illegally getting paid in cash under the table, you'd be correct.  That's not the case in MOST cases.  They do pay into the federal and state tax structures through their paychecks as required by law.  In other words, its incorrect to assume that because they are here illegally they aren't paying into the system.

I posted a link where it's estimated illegal immigrants pay  billions annually in taxes.  Not all of them are freeloaders looking to game the system. 

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4 hours ago, The Commish said:

Think it depends on the individual....someone here illegally getting paid in cash under the table, you'd be correct.  That's not the case in MOST cases.  They do pay into the federal and state tax structures through their paychecks as required by law.  In other words, its incorrect to assume that because they are here illegally they aren't paying into the system.

 Is it really not the case in most cases though? Seriously, I’m simply asking because I know, for instance, here in Philadelphia, construction crews (the non unions ones at least) Utilize a ton of illegal immigrant labor. Those folks are filling out a W-4.

I’m willing to believe you, by the way. I just wonder if there’s actual data to back up the statement that it’s not the case in most cases. 

I did see the link that estimates that billions of dollars are paid into the system by illegal immigrants. That doesn’t really tell me how many do not pay into the system though. Which is what I’m talking about.

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5 minutes ago, unckeyherb said:

 Is it really not the case in most cases though? Seriously, I’m simply asking because I know, for instance, here in Philadelphia, construction crews (the non unions ones at least) Utilize a ton of illegal immigrant labor. Those folks are filling out a W-4.

I’m willing to believe you, by the way. I just wonder if there’s actual data to back up the statement that it’s not the case in most cases. 

I did see the link that estimates that billions of dollars are paid into the system by illegal immigrants. That doesn’t really tell me how many do not pay into the system though. Which is what I’m talking about.

Here's an older government estimate for social security:

Quote

OCACT estimates 1.8 million other immigrants worked and used an SSN that did not match their name in 2010. Their earnings may be credited to someone else’s record (when the SSN and name submitted to the employer match Social Security records) or may be credited to the Earnings Suspense File (when submitted with nonmatching SSN and name). Finally, OCACT estimates 3.9 million other immigrants worked in the underground economy in 2010.

https://www.ssa.gov/oact/NOTES/pdf_notes/note151.pdf

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4 hours ago, Mile High said:

I posted a link where it's estimated illegal immigrants pay  billions annually in taxes.  Not all of them are freeloaders looking to game the system. 

Right, and I’m certainly not saying that they are freeloaders nor are they trying to game the system. My point remains however, I’d like to understand how many or not paying into the system. Because those are the people that would be “getting free healthcare”

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9 minutes ago, Juxtatarot said:

Here's an older government estimate for social security:

https://www.ssa.gov/oact/NOTES/pdf_notes/note151.pdf

Okay.  So just under 4 million people in 2010.  If everything else was static, those 4 million would be getting the “free” healthcare discussed above.  

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7 minutes ago, unckeyherb said:

Right, and I’m certainly not saying that they are freeloaders nor are they trying to game the system. My point remains however, I’d like to understand how many or not paying into the system. Because those are the people that would be “getting free healthcare”

If they use it. I have worked with lots of guys over the course of my life who I know for a fact are here illegally.  For the most part they try to  fly completely under the radar and would only get medical treatment in an emergency.  

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Just now, Mile High said:

If they use it. I have worked with lots of guys over the course of my life who I know for a fact are here illegally.  For the most part they try to  fly completely under the radar and would only get medical treatment in an emergency.  

I believe that

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2 hours ago, unckeyherb said:

 Is it really not the case in most cases though? Seriously, I’m simply asking because I know, for instance, here in Philadelphia, construction crews (the non unions ones at least) Utilize a ton of illegal immigrant labor. Those folks are filling out a W-4.

I’m willing to believe you, by the way. I just wonder if there’s actual data to back up the statement that it’s not the case in most cases. 

I did see the link that estimates that billions of dollars are paid into the system by illegal immigrants. That doesn’t really tell me how many do not pay into the system though. Which is what I’m talking about.

You're asking a question that can't really be answered.  I.E.  You don't know what you don't know.  All we can go by is the number that we know DO pay into the system.  All those filing a W4 are paying into the system.  I can only offer anecdotes here in Florida and south Florida....getting paid under the table in cash tends to be the exception rather than the rule.  When I lived in SC, the folks I worked with in the various help groups I was a part of, being paid under the table was definitely the exception.  I ran into a handful who were paid that way.  If I had to throw a number on it, I'd guess that better than half are paying into the system and I'm willing to bet way more than half of them don't ever take a dime back in the form of services.  They are terrified of being rooted out and do whatever is necessary to keep a low profile.

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10 minutes ago, The Commish said:

don't ever take a dime back in the form of services.  They are terrified of being rooted out and do whatever is necessary to keep a low profile.

That has been my take on the illegal immigrants I have worked with as well. Taxes get taken out of their checks, they never file to get anything back, they avoid contact with local or federal agencies as much as possible. The idea that the people I know, would  risk getting caught and deported and losing their place here to vote or get free stuff doesn't compute with my experiences interacting with them.

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8 hours ago, Mile High said:

That has been my take on the illegal immigrants I have worked with as well. Taxes get taken out of their checks, they never file to get anything back, they avoid contact with local or federal agencies as much as possible. The idea that the people I know, would  risk getting caught and deported and losing their place here to vote or get free stuff doesn't compute with my experiences interacting with them.

Pretty sure if we started offering free health care to them we wouldnt be scooping them up and deporting them when they went to the doctor. If thats the dems plan if they win, that would be interesting.

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1 hour ago, parasaurolophus said:

Pretty sure if we started offering free health care to them we wouldnt be scooping them up and deporting them when they went to the doctor. If thats the dems plan if they win, that would be interesting.

This post just goes to demonstrate the absurdity of this entire discussion. Giving “free medical care to illegal immigrants” is a non issue because even if you wanted to do it, how would you do it? Unless they have proper papers they can’t apply for anything. 

This entire issue has become so nonsensical in recent years. There are 14 million undocumented people living in this country. What are we do to with them? Deport them all? Even deporting a few hundred costs millions of dollars which was demonstrated last week, and creates tons of problems. Let them stay in the shadows? Not a good idea long term. Give them a path to citizenship? Half the nation simply won’t agree. 

We’ve been frozen on this issue for over a decade. Nobody seems to have  any willingness to find a reasonable solution. And far too many people focus on irrelevancies like will they receive free healthcare. 

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10 hours ago, timschochet said:

This post just goes to demonstrate the absurdity of this entire discussion. Giving “free medical care to illegal immigrants” is a non issue because even if you wanted to do it, how would you do it? Unless they have proper papers they can’t apply for anything. 

This entire issue has become so nonsensical in recent years. There are 14 million undocumented people living in this country. What are we do to with them? Deport them all? Even deporting a few hundred costs millions of dollars which was demonstrated last week, and creates tons of problems. Let them stay in the shadows? Not a good idea long term. Give them a path to citizenship? Half the nation simply won’t agree. 

We’ve been frozen on this issue for over a decade. Nobody seems to have  any willingness to find a reasonable solution. And far too many people focus on irrelevancies like will they receive free healthcare. 

Dont 26% of illegal immigrants already have health insurance? Would it be that much harder to get it from the gubmint if it was legal to do so. 

And it isnt irrelevant Tim. Only to you because you dont care how many come here. 

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1 hour ago, parasaurolophus said:

Dont 26% of illegal immigrants already have health insurance? Would it be that much harder to get it from the gubmint if it was legal to do so. 

And it isnt irrelevant Tim. Only to you because you dont care how many come here. 

Right.  And a number of states allow illegal immigrants to get driver's licenses.  And they can get auto insurance.   As they say, if there is a will, there is a way.

(Although I agree with Tim that this is extremely unlikely to happen anytime soon -- even with Democrats in power.  I just don't buy his "papers" argument.)

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On 8/15/2019 at 10:25 PM, Gopher State said:

I don’t know how to answer what you are stating, I guess I always felt that unions were a fair wage for hard days work, now it seems like everyone  only cares about is price, build my car in Mexico if it Will save  me a $1000.00.

And today Bernie Sanders has released a plan designed to push back on that, increase the number of people in unions and return more power to workers. So there you go but then you'd be supporting a rank socialist.

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13 minutes ago, NCCommish said:

And today Bernie Sanders has released a plan designed to push back on that, increase the number of people in unions and return more power to workers. So there you go but then you'd be supporting a rank socialist.

Please use quotations around "socialist"....TIA.

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