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timschochet

The deficit is over a trillion dollars a year.

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53 minutes ago, msommer said:

Lod is one of those "burn it all down" guys, IIRC. It may not have mattered to him then either

Hasn't mattered to me for about 2 decades when I first realized that it's always going to increase. If it always increases, then why does it matter by how much? It doesn't. You will never hear anyone in power say that but they know it.

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Debt service. Learn it, live it...love it.  And understand whats its costing us....then tell is again how it doesn't matter when our interest is nearly a Trillion Dollars in the near future.

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1 minute ago, sho nuff said:

Debt service. Learn it, live it...love it.  And understand whats its costing us....then tell is again how it doesn't matter when our interest is nearly a Trillion Dollars in the near future.

I'll tell ya now. Won't matter. We'll print more $. or we will implement the Trillion $ coin as Obama almost did. Learn about it, will ya?

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Just now, lod001 said:

I'll tell ya now. Won't matter. We'll print more $. or we will implement the Trillion $ coin as Obama almost did. Learn about it, will ya?

Obama :lmao:    Totally relevant to what i said.  It already matters and will continue to matter as those debt service payments rise even more.  

 

 

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4 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

Obama :lmao:    Totally relevant to what i said.  It already matters and will continue to matter as those debt service payments rise even more.  

 

 

Not sure why I waste time with you, except to prove you wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trillion-dollar_coin

https://www.businessinsider.com/obama-mint-trillion-dollar-coin-scariest-night-debt-ceiling-2017-1

Obama was asked what the "scariest moment" of his presidency was.

"I think it was the moment when it seemed that John Boehner didn't seem to generate the votes to make sure the US didn't default on our debt," Obama said, referring to the former House speaker. "We had to start drafting a speech."

Obama told the podcast that, amid the possibility of a government shutdown and default that would most likely have lowered the US's credit rating, the administration was considering numerous options to avoid the shutdown and deal with the national debt. One of the ideas floated, Obama said, was having the US Treasury mint a coin worth $1 trillion to pay off a good portion of the debt.

 

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11 minutes ago, lod001 said:

Not sure why I waste time with you, except to prove you wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trillion-dollar_coin

https://www.businessinsider.com/obama-mint-trillion-dollar-coin-scariest-night-debt-ceiling-2017-1

Obama was asked what the "scariest moment" of his presidency was.

"I think it was the moment when it seemed that John Boehner didn't seem to generate the votes to make sure the US didn't default on our debt," Obama said, referring to the former House speaker. "We had to start drafting a speech."

Obama told the podcast that, amid the possibility of a government shutdown and default that would most likely have lowered the US's credit rating, the administration was considering numerous options to avoid the shutdown and deal with the national debt. One of the ideas floated, Obama said, was having the US Treasury mint a coin worth $1 trillion to pay off a good portion of the debt.

 

Prove me wrong?  Exactly how did this prove me wrong?  Never mind...enjoy your fun.

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31 minutes ago, lod001 said:

Nothing to add I see and my points are indisputable as we keep cruising along year after year and the same arguments come up yet the debt continues to rise and we keep on going. The only argument is weak and that is 'they are kicking the can down the road and someday we will pay......22T later. Here we are.

Years from now $50 T same song and dance....

:lmao: It is rare, but I literally did laugh out loud at the bolded.

You have no idea what you are talking about. 

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Why is it kept track of if it doesn’t matter?

I believe the dollar won’t be the reserve currency forever and there will come a day where we can’t meet the interest payments and we just declare we aren’t paying anyone. 

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15 hours ago, NREC34 said:

Why is it kept track of if it doesn’t matter?

I believe the dollar won’t be the reserve currency forever and there will come a day where we can’t meet the interest payments and we just declare we aren’t paying anyone. 

It is kept track of because it is simply a talking point now used by the side not in control. It used to matter. It used to be something we could have done something about. 

Now, yeah right. The amount of wrangling that would go on just to get us running break even would be absurd. Cant even imagine what it would take to get it to where we were actually reducing the debt. 

Even if we somehow found a way to run a 500 billion surplus for a few years, there would be some new massive spending bill needed shortly after that would cancel it all out. 

Daddy always needs a new pair of shoes. 

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3 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

Even if we somehow found a way to run a 500 billion surplus for a few years, there would be some new massive spending bill needed shortly after that would cancel it all out. 

Based on recent history, it would be a tax cut for the wealthy that blows it back out.  

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Just now, Slapdash said:

Based on recent history, it would be a tax cut for the wealthy that blows it back out.  

We were at a surplus before that? Interesting. I had no idea. 

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Just now, parasaurolophus said:

We were at a surplus before that? Interesting. I had no idea. 

We were in 2001 before Bush's first tax cuts.  But, sure, ignore that the deficit was going down strongly before Trump blew it back out.

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1 hour ago, Slapdash said:

We were in 2001 before Bush's first tax cuts.  But, sure, ignore that the deficit was going down strongly before Trump blew it back out.

Just stop with the Democrats are blameless shtick.

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1 hour ago, Slapdash said:

We were in 2001 before Bush's first tax cuts.  But, sure, ignore that the deficit was going down strongly before Trump blew it back out.

2001 :lmao: 

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13 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

2001 :lmao: 

Also known as the last time we had a surplus. Sorry, didn't realize you weren't a serious poster.  Won't happen again.

Edited by Slapdash
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27 minutes ago, PhantomJB said:

Just stop with the Democrats are blameless shtick.

I'd have to have started to stop it.

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13 minutes ago, Slapdash said:

Also known as the last time we had a surplus. Sorry, didn't realize you weren't a serious poster.  Won't happen again.

2001 proves my point not yours. 

We barely had a surplus. So little in fact that when you look at historical charts of the national debt it doesn't even reflect a dip in any years under Clinton and it went up overall like 25% under clinton. In 2001 we had 9/11. 

Which would have raised the deficit and of course debt regardless of who was president(how many congresspeople voted against going to Afghanistan?) canceling out the meager surplus and then some. There is always an event that raises it and there is literally never any reduction of it. Bush's tax cuts reduced tax receipts by 1.2 trillion to 1.55 trillion over 10 years. So even if we conclude that the bush tax cuts were wrong, they still cost us a fraction of what 9/11 cost us. 

So in summation and a much easier reply to your comical post...

2001 :lmao: 

 

 

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31 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

2001 proves my point not yours. 

We barely had a surplus. So little in fact that when you look at historical charts of the national debt it doesn't even reflect a dip in any years under Clinton and it went up overall like 25% under clinton. In 2001 we had 9/11. 

Which would have raised the deficit and of course debt regardless of who was president(how many congresspeople voted against going to Afghanistan?) canceling out the meager surplus and then some. There is always an event that raises it and there is literally never any reduction of it. Bush's tax cuts reduced tax receipts by 1.2 trillion to 1.55 trillion over 10 years. So even if we conclude that the bush tax cuts were wrong, they still cost us a fraction of what 9/11 cost us. 

So in summation and a much easier reply to your comical post...

2001 :lmao: 

 

Passing massive tax cuts happened before 9/11 and the surplus was part of the justification.  It was a conscious choice to increase the deficit (they did it again two years later), just like Trump's tax cuts.  

And your figures (to the extent you finally posted some) are light:

 In 2013 CBPP estimated that, when the associated interest costs are taken into account, the Bush tax cuts (including those that policymakers made permanent) would add $5.6 trillion to deficits from 2001 to 2018.[8]  This means that the Bush tax cuts will be responsible for roughly one-third of the federal debt owed by 2018.

So, no, your point that massive spending bills would arise because "daddy needs a new pair of shoes" is still countered by actual experience.  In that experience, we see the last time the US had a surplus Bush actually campaigned on and implemented tax cuts to reduce it.  Just like the last time we had a decreasing deficit Trump campaigned on and implemented tax cuts to increase it again.

 

Edited by Slapdash
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On 8/27/2019 at 7:44 AM, PhantomJB said:

Just stop with the Democrats are blameless shtick.

I think he's a Bernie supporter, too. That should help with the deficit.

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On 8/27/2019 at 10:30 AM, Slapdash said:

Just like the last time we had a decreasing deficit Trump campaigned on and implemented tax cuts to increase it again.

FY 2016: $585 billion

FY 2015: $435 billion

I suppose only in minds of progressive Democrats does a 34% increase actually equate to a "decreasing deficit"...

https://www.thebalance.com/deficit-by-president-what-budget-deficits-hide-3306151

 

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1 hour ago, PhantomJB said:

FY 2016: $585 billion

FY 2015: $435 billion

I suppose only in minds of progressive Democrats does a 34% increase actually equate to a "decreasing deficit"...

https://www.thebalance.com/deficit-by-president-what-budget-deficits-hide-3306151

 

Is it only in the minds of "progress Democrats" where we are capable of looking at trends?   If you want to cherry pick years though, picking one where revenue growth is slow due to....tax cuts...is a good one:

Revenue growth was reduced by the retroactive extension of some expired individual and corporate tax deductions passed by Congress as part of the Protecting Americans from Tax Hikes (PATH) Act late last year, Treasury said.

But yeah, seems like a good time to cut more taxes

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10 hours ago, dickey moe said:

I think he's a Bernie supporter, too. That should help with the deficit.

Update your notebook

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6 minutes ago, Slapdash said:

Is it only in the minds of "progress Democrats" where we are capable of looking at trends?   If you want to cherry pick years though, picking one where revenue growth is slow due to....tax cuts...is a good one:

Revenue growth was reduced by the retroactive extension of some expired individual and corporate tax deductions passed by Congress as part of the Protecting Americans from Tax Hikes (PATH) Act late last year, Treasury said.

But yeah, seems like a good time to cut more taxes

Weak.

You made a statement that the deficit was decreasing when it was actually increasing. That statement was patently false.

Now you're attempting to pull some other random factoid to imply that because I called that out that somehow I support the Trump tax cuts. Or that somehow there is a "trend" that certain tax cuts are the primary reason for the national debt. Or whatever.

Before even implementing any tax cuts, the Trump presidency inherited a nearly $600 billion annual budget deficit from Obama as a starting point. According to CBO, even without the Trump tax cuts that annual deficit started under Obama was projected to keep rising. 

Please just give up trying to blame this all on Republican tax cuts...the Obama administration's lack of fiscal responsibility is equally to blame for our current national debt/deficit situation.

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3 hours ago, PhantomJB said:

Weak.

You made a statement that the deficit was decreasing when it was actually increasing. That statement was patently false.

Now you're attempting to pull some other random factoid to imply that because I called that out that somehow I support the Trump tax cuts. Or that somehow there is a "trend" that certain tax cuts are the primary reason for the national debt. Or whatever.

Before even implementing any tax cuts, the Trump presidency inherited a nearly $600 billion annual budget deficit from Obama as a starting point. According to CBO, even without the Trump tax cuts that annual deficit started under Obama was projected to keep rising. 

Please just give up trying to blame this all on Republican tax cuts...the Obama administration's lack of fiscal responsibility is equally to blame for our current national debt/deficit situation.

You're all over the place here.  There was certainly a trend of declining deficits under Obama.  Cherry-picking a year where revenues were essentially flat doesn't change that.  You also keep falsely claiming that I'm blaming solely Republican tax cuts.  A third of outstanding debt is due to the Bush tax cuts (that Obama largely extended) though.  The spending side is driven by Medicare and SS.  Blaming Obama for that is laughable. 

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From an article by Robert L. Bixby, the executive director of The Concord Coalition, a nonpartisan organization that educates on the importance of responsible federal fiscal policy.

"When the winner of the 2020 presidential election takes the Oath of Office on Jan. 20, 2021, he or she will assume responsibility for a government that carries about $24 trillion in debt and projected budget deficits exceeding $1 trillion every year for the foreseeable future."

That’s why I took some time to explore the websites of the major candidates,

Among the plethora of issue tabs and policy plans displayed on the candidates’ websites, only former Governor Bill Weld has an issue tab specifically dedicated to fiscal policy. Senator Michael Bennet is the only candidate with an all-inclusive tally of policy proposals. And Senator Amy Klobuchar is the only candidate with an express goal of lowering the debt-to-GDP ratio.

https://www.seacoastonline.com/news/20200127/guest-view-debt-and-deficit-plans-should-be-front-and-center

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On 8/26/2019 at 12:55 PM, lod001 said:

So what. Who cares. Let me show you something. $500,000,000,000...….$1,100,000,000,000.

Both have a lot of zeros. Who cares how many since every year since forever, excluding the internet bubble years, we borrow more.

US deficit per year.

2003, the 1st year that we busted over 1/2T: $500,000,000,000

Now: $1,100,000,000,000.

Difference of $0.51 T. We run a deficit EVERY year. So who cares how much it is? Can you people even understand that? It's not like we can balance the budget, that's impossible so we will always spend more than we bring in. Why do you even care about another $1/2 T or $1/4 T?

To keep the world engine running more $ must be spent than brought in.

Any questions? We are gonna print $ like never before. See how we can do that if we need to? They are just gonna print off ~ $1200 for everyone that makes under a certain amount.

Oh but...... no, case closed.

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2 minutes ago, lod001 said:

Any questions? We are gonna print $ like never before. See how we can do that if we need to? They are just gonna print off ~ $1200 for everyone that makes under a certain amount.

Oh but...... no, case closed.

Then why not just pay everyone $5000? Or )100000? 

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Then why not just pay everyone $5000? Or )100000? 

They could. But they won't.

Hypothetically, simply imagine everyone getting $100000 cash delivered to their doorstep but no one shared that info with anyone else. What would happen? Nothing bad. In fact, the economy would soar. 

Pretty good chance $1200 ain't gonna cut it either. Yang knows what he's talking about. You Ds should have listened to him.

Edited by lod001
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People think 60 is the new 40, so a trillion is the new billion.   Changes with the times.

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2 minutes ago, Drunken Cowboy said:

I am assuming 3T this year

And we will just cruise along once this virus and recession are over with. 

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2 minutes ago, lod001 said:

They could. But they won't.

Hypothetically, simply imagine everyone getting $100000 cash delivered to their doorstep but no one shared that info with anyone else. What would happen? Nothing bad. In fact, the economy would soar. 

Not sure about that. It seems to me that it would result in rampant inflation. 

During World War II after the Germans would conquer a country their soldiers would use worthless occupation money to buy everything in sight. Wouldn’t this basically be the same thing? 

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8 hours ago, timschochet said:

Not sure about that. It seems to me that it would result in rampant inflation. 

During World War II after the Germans would conquer a country their soldiers would use worthless occupation money to buy everything in sight. Wouldn’t this basically be the same thing? 

Article from 1983. https://www.minneapolisfed.org/research/qr/qr712.pdf  Talk about being WRONG. 45 years later and 24T more: https://www.econlib.org/excessive-debt-doesnt-cause-inflation/

We are at 24T. We have inflation where the FED wants it. At 24T, that's never getting paid back...EVER, our inflation rate should be a gazillion percent. We are the only country that cant print our way out of a disaster. There's a reason the gold standard was abandoned. The talking heads don't know. The people that really run the country and keep us as #1 in the world do.

This is the perfect opportunity to enact the Trillion Dollar Coin. You print the coin,  and voila, we have a trillion dollars.  

The concept of striking a trillion-dollar coin that would generate one trillion dollars in seigniorage, which would be off-budget, or numismatic profit, which would be on-budget, and be transferred to the Treasury, is based on the authority granted by Section 31 U.S.C. § 5112 of the United States Code for the Treasury Department to "mint and issue platinum bullion coins" in any denominations the Secretary of the Treasury may choose.

The idea for the Treasury Department to mint a coin and send it to the Federal Reserve in order to pay off the debt was first popularized by Populist Presidential Candidate Bo Gritz in 1992.

Heck, we could make it a tourist attraction. The corona virus epidemic 25 years ago was saved by these coins. Yeah I'm not kidding. You have to get past the fact that it makes no sense whatsoever. Obama was real close to using it in the 2008 meltdown. 

Obama's idea of the coin may be a bit different from what others discussed at the time. As Bloomberg's Joe Weisenthal (who we should note was fascinated by the idea while at Business Insider) noted on Twitter, you in theory could just mint any size of coin and declare it worth $1 trillion. Obama, however, said he imagined it much larger.

"It was some primitive ... it was out of the Stone Age," Obama told the hosts. "I pictured rolling in some coin."

 

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We are gonna need to mint at least 4 Trillion $ coins just to start. Hope they are big and cool looking.

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8 hours ago, lod001 said:

Article from 1983. https://www.minneapolisfed.org/research/qr/qr712.pdf  Talk about being WRONG. 45 years later and 24T more: https://www.econlib.org/excessive-debt-doesnt-cause-inflation/

We are at 24T. We have inflation where the FED wants it. At 24T, that's never getting paid back...EVER, our inflation rate should be a gazillion percent. We are the only country that cant print our way out of a disaster. There's a reason the gold standard was abandoned. The talking heads don't know. The people that really run the country and keep us as #1 in the world do.

This is the perfect opportunity to enact the Trillion Dollar Coin. You print the coin,  and voila, we have a trillion dollars.  

The concept of striking a trillion-dollar coin that would generate one trillion dollars in seigniorage, which would be off-budget, or numismatic profit, which would be on-budget, and be transferred to the Treasury, is based on the authority granted by Section 31 U.S.C. § 5112 of the United States Code for the Treasury Department to "mint and issue platinum bullion coins" in any denominations the Secretary of the Treasury may choose.

The idea for the Treasury Department to mint a coin and send it to the Federal Reserve in order to pay off the debt was first popularized by Populist Presidential Candidate Bo Gritz in 1992.

Heck, we could make it a tourist attraction. The corona virus epidemic 25 years ago was saved by these coins. Yeah I'm not kidding. You have to get past the fact that it makes no sense whatsoever. Obama was real close to using it in the 2008 meltdown. 

Obama's idea of the coin may be a bit different from what others discussed at the time. As Bloomberg's Joe Weisenthal (who we should note was fascinated by the idea while at Business Insider) noted on Twitter, you in theory could just mint any size of coin and declare it worth $1 trillion. Obama, however, said he imagined it much larger.

"It was some primitive ... it was out of the Stone Age," Obama told the hosts. "I pictured rolling in some coin."

 

Simpsons did it

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On 3/20/2020 at 10:29 PM, lod001 said:

They could. But they won't.

Hypothetically, simply imagine everyone getting $100000 cash delivered to their doorstep but no one shared that info with anyone else. What would happen? Nothing bad. In fact, the economy would soar. 

Pretty good chance $1200 ain't gonna cut it either. Yang knows what he's talking about. You Ds should have listened to him.

Did Rs support him?

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3 hours ago, Hawkeye21 said:

Did Rs support him?

All the people I know that are Rs rolled their eyes about him and here we are getting ready to send $ to everyone and 1 month probably wont cut it. You don't need them. You need the Ds and the majority of us (I). The fact that we are getting ready to do that should tell everyone that we can do it on a yearly basis. This virus is going to raise the deficit easily past 30T.

My advice to the govt is to enact the Trillion Dollar Coin as an emergency measure that doesn't count against the deficit. Who wants to argue against it and go with living in a depression instead? No sane person.

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1 hour ago, lod001 said:

All the people I know that are Rs rolled their eyes about him and here we are getting ready to send $ to everyone and 1 month probably wont cut it. You don't need them. You need the Ds and the majority of us (I). The fact that we are getting ready to do that should tell everyone that we can do it on a yearly basis. This virus is going to raise the deficit easily past 30T.

My advice to the govt is to enact the Trillion Dollar Coin as an emergency measure that doesn't count against the deficit. Who wants to argue against it and go with living in a depression instead? No sane person.

It’s the same conversation as 2008 right now.  Everyone who ever saw duck tales growing up or listens to Peter Shiff or spends more than 3 minutes at zero hedge is going to come out of the woodwork and scream about inflation as we print up 1-2-3 T to get us through this.  In the meantime we had a perfectly acceptable inflation rate and economy 5 weeks ago.  What’s different now?  Is adding 4T going to change the rate of inflation?  No - the major stock index’s alone (S&P 500, Dow 30 and all of the Q’s) have lost over 17T In value since Mar 1.   This is tomsay nothing about the impact on commodities, Real Estste and that 1957 Mantle your Dad owns.  Some number in the 50T area has gone up in flames in 4 weeks.  Adding 4T back into the economy isn’t going to come close to causing any real inflation.

 

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Tlaib is all in on printing some Trillion dollar coins.

https://decrypt.co/23219/trillion-coin-fed-treasury-coronavirus

I say 5, not just 2. 

Fake Coin people don't like it, I guess  because it will crush their fake coin.

Bitcoin developer and entrepreneur Jimmy Song said that Tlaib has underestimated the number of coins she proposes to mint. “You're going to need to print more Trillion dollar coins. This sort of thinking is exactly what leads to hyperinflation,” he tweeted yesterday. CLUELESS.

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Hey fiscal conservatives, can you guys let me know when the Tea Party march on the Washington Mall is going to be?  

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36 minutes ago, tommyGunZ said:

Hey fiscal conservatives, can you guys let me know when the Tea Party march on the Washington Mall is going to be?  

meh...there's a few of us around.  Tea party was never really about being fiscally conservative.  That should be painfully obvious by now.  Even as a fiscal conservative, I get that this money is necessary.  The pork is a disgusting part of this whole thing.  I haven't gotten to read the most recent version, but the previous ones should make every American embarrassed.  Those were total nonsense in the middle of a crisis where time is of the essence.

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12 hours ago, The Commish said:

meh...there's a few of us around.  Tea party was never really about being fiscally conservative.  That should be painfully obvious by now.  Even as a fiscal conservative, I get that this money is necessary.  The pork is a disgusting part of this whole thing.  I haven't gotten to read the most recent version, but the previous ones should make every American embarrassed.  Those were total nonsense in the middle of a crisis where time is of the essence.

One thing you can count on is our lawmakers in Washington never pass up the opportunity to do the wrong thing and that goes for both parties.

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21 hours ago, lod001 said:

Can someone way smarter about this than me explain to me how anything the US says has value is worth anything if we just start making these?

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24 minutes ago, The General said:

Can someone way smarter about this than me explain to me how anything the US says has value is worth anything if we just start making these?

Because we will bomb the whole planet if you don't value it?

Kidding but kind of not. 

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Posted (edited)

I like how the govt can print $1200 for each of us and we don't have to pay it back and it's not taxed. 

Yang anyone? Dude is before his time. They should have just gone ahead & minted a 1 T coin and displayed it int eh fed and then handed us $1200 each over the next 4 months....keep the change. 

Edited by lod001

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It's beyond ridiculous at this point. Have no idea how much debt we can sustain before collapse. Quadrillions?

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Posted (edited)

Regardless, crickets now.  10 years ago you'd have thought the world was ending with the US adding $1.5T for the first couple years of the recession. 

Now it's :yawn:

Edited by James Daulton
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