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***Official Donald J. Trump Impeachment (Whistleblower) Thread*** (7 Viewers)

According to some of them, we’re simply supposed to “agree to disagree”. Sorry but when I have facts and you don’t, I’m not going to agree to disagree, because in that situation your opinion is not the equal of mine. 
Moderation that forces us to “agree to disagree” with flat out, repeatedly disproven lies, only serves as an accomplice to those who purposefully distort the truth.  
 

By putting liars on the same ground as those who tirelessly provide objective truths and underlying facts, is to be a part of the problem that is unraveling of this great nation and our democracy.

its disappointing that after a years’ hiatus, the truth is still subjugated here to a false promise of being excellent. As if letting liars continue to lie, unfettered, is excellent for anything other than to promote the very propaganda and misinformation campaign those who perpetuate those lies seek, in the first place.

Take a stand for what is right - or at least what is truth. 

 
It gets very tiring to have to educate you about the same facts over and over.  Fact is GDP growth is on average higher for Trump so far on a per year basis by quite a lot over the 8 years of Obama.

Fact is unemployment is quite a bit lower now than under Obama.

Fact is majority of Americans are paying less in taxes now than before the tax bill.  Of course the rich are getting the biggest cut they were paying the most.  Do you understand how progressive taxes work?  That doesn't mean low and middle class families haven't benefited.  In fact, one could argue it helps them more because the extra $1,800 per year to them means so much more than the extra $5,000 to someone making $300k.

You guys can be upset with Trump as a person and if something comes out concrete that he deserves to be impeached I will be right there with you.  However, facts are he has been great for the United States.
Are you looking at the total number when comparing or are you looking at the yearly trend?

 
It gets very tiring to have to educate you about the same facts over and over.  Fact is GDP growth is on average higher for Trump so far on a per year basis by quite a lot over the 8 years of Obama.

Fact is unemployment is quite a bit lower now than under Obama.

Fact is majority of Americans are paying less in taxes now than before the tax bill.  Of course the rich are getting the biggest cut they were paying the most.  Do you understand how progressive taxes work?  That doesn't mean low and middle class families haven't benefited.  In fact, one could argue it helps them more because the extra $1,800 per year to them means so much more than the extra $5,000 to someone making $300k.

You guys can be upset with Trump as a person and if something comes out concrete that he deserves to be impeached I will be right there with you.  However, facts are he has been great for the United States.
I for one love the condescending posts from someone unwilling to cite any actual facts and just expecting us to take your opinion seriously.

Fact is...average growth is a pretty bad indicator.  It ignores where things were when each POTUS came in...it ignores the difference between 8 years and coming out of a recession vs less than 3 years in a growing economy that started prior to him taking office.  But you know this...it has been explained to you and you chose to ignore it.

Fact is...unemployment has followed the same trends...again, this has been explained to you...it was explained to you again in what you are replying to.

Its not that they get the biggest cut because they were paying more...its that they are benefitting the most.  The middle classes benefit (as small as it already is) will phase out.  They are footing the bill for the rich to get richer (and we go deeper into debt as a country to pay them).  That is not Conservative...that is not good.

I don't believe you will be right there with us.  Because there is plenty of concrete things out showing he deserves to be impeached and not supported.  The Facts are not that he has been great for the US.  That again is your very biased opinion.  And its hard to take seriously when a person does not even accept that Russia hacked the DNC.  Facts and evidence don't matter to such people.  Which is why links and questions go ignored and we get no actual facts or links to back up the claims made.  Rinse and repeat.

 
That defense is so bad, I think my brain shut down for a moment. Since when is incompetence an excuse for criminal behavior? Oh, I tried stealing that car, but I can't drive stick, they have to let me go now! Have we all lost our minds?
A flavor of this was used for Hillary too...."she didn't know what she was doing" was essentially the defense laid out by Comey in his findings.  

 
How two businessmen hustled to profit from access to Rudy Giuliani and the Trump administration

- Everything in this article is just full of muck and stench, but this is really special:

Two weeks ago when they were arrested, Parnas and Fruman were preparing to fly to Vienna, Austria, to meet Giuliani and another key figure in the impeachment investigation, Ukraine's former prosecutor general Viktor Shokin, according to four sources familiar with their trip. Shokin is the same Ukrainian official who former Vice President Joe Biden -- along with other Western leaders -- had pushed to have removed over concerns he wasn't prosecuting corruption.
So.......you're tellin' me that Trump's lawyer set up a business meeting with the same "corrupt prosecutor" at the center of the Hunter Biden allegations???

I mean, I thought the authors were getting lazy with the script before, but now they're just being preposterous.

 
Moderation that forces us to “agree to disagree” with flat out, repeatedly disproven lies, only serves as an accomplice to those who purposefully distort the truth.  
 

By putting liars on the same ground as those who tirelessly provide objective truths and underlying facts, is to be a part of the problem that is unraveling of this great nation and our democracy.

its disappointing that after a years’ hiatus, the truth is still subjugated here to a false promise of being excellent. As if letting liars continue to lie, unfettered, is excellent for anything other than to promote the very propaganda and misinformation campaign those who perpetuate those lies seek, in the first place.

Take a stand for what is right - or at least what is truth. 
At the same time they "take a stand" against fake news - by eliminating satirical mock quotes

 
Moderating this place is a thankless task but boiling it down to “Both Sides Do It so please be respectful when you post lies and bigoted rhetoric” is pretty weak. There are people who have years—in some cases probably a decade+, ay caramba—of purely bad faith arguments. What is “excellent” about keeping them around, exactly? (but muh free speech!!)

Adding more mods is an option. This isn’t the job FBG writers signed on for.

 
its disappointing that after a years’ hiatus, the truth is still subjugated here to a false promise of being excellent.    
I ask that people be civil to each other here and discuss issues.

It's disappointing to hear you think I'm promoting some sort of "false promise" in order to subjugate truth.

 
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Its why people need to continue to contact their Senators and Representatives.  Identify yourself as a constituent.  Get your message through to them that the voters will hold them accountable.  That we want the process to go through as it is intended.  For all of the actual information to come out...for the lies to be refuted with the truth (and for McConnell to be pushed to bring legislation to the floor that the House has passed).  Enough of the kid gloves with all of this...the voters are not being represented right now...
Done.

 
The latest completely absurd defense has been offered by former acting Attorney General Matthew Whittaker: 

https://www.google.com/amp/www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/trumps-former-acting-ag-presidential-abuses-power-arent-illegal/amp

”Abuse of power is not illegal”
I actually saw this on Laura Ingram and she quickly moved on realizing what an idiotic statement it was.  The guy is an idiot so doubt they actually use that argument going forward.  

 
Because Trump and the GOP have been better at getting out their version of things...and people believe it...despite it being completely untrue.

That is the divide in this country right now...the GOP and Trump has lied over and over and people still believe it.  Facts don't matter and the democrats have been awful at getting their message out and showing it...
I don’t believe this.  Both sides get their message out just fine.  But the republicans don’t get their info at the places where the democrats get their info.

 
I don’t believe this.  Both sides get their message out just fine.  But the republicans don’t get their info at the places where the democrats get their info.
Then why have we heard next to nothing from the democrats to combat Trump's (and the GOP) claims that Republicans are not in the room with this inquiry?

Why the continued lies about the server that still get parroted by Trump and the GOP?

Why do so many still believe it?

I don't think Democrats are getting the message out well.  And that means getting it out to places where "Republicans" get their information.  

 
I ask that people be civil to each other here and discuss issues.

It's disappointing to hear you think I'm promoting some sort of "false promise" in order to subjugate truth.
Replied to your message and I appreciate your response here and there... please understand that I don’t believe you are promoting false promise.
 

I believe that your well intended attempts to keep this community excellent have unfortunately provided an amplified and unfettered platform for a select few who put forth disproven lie after disproven lie, while at the same time gloating how they enjoy watching others react accordingly aka making the libs cry.

I don’t have the answer, and understand you can’t be the arbiters of truth... but when satirical quotes are disallowed and continued propaganda, lies, and trolling are, it puts me at a loss.

As I said in my PM, perhaps it was my mistake to rejoin the conversation as my goal in doing so was to be a positive and constructive participant and obviously I am falling well short of that goal.

For that, I truly am sorry and am reconsidering just to ensure I don’t continue to add more negativity when we need just the opposite.  Be what you want the world to become I guess.

Its just so difficult when 30% of the country seems not only ok with, but hell bent, on destroying the very concept of objective truth - and worse yet, to do so in an effort to support a lying, dangerous, cruel, mean, bullying demagogue that speaks only the language of hate and division... all the while systematically fraying the very foundations of our democracy and institutions.

Ill take some time to reassess so if I do re-rejoin the fray, my contributions can be more constructive than a continually harp on this issue of supporting those who lie and troll.  And if I feel the board is set in a manner where I won’t be able to resist (again, feels like letting the trolls win, their goal is to incite and get folks riled up, banned, or just silence those who want to force truth to the top), I’ll remain in the background.

Apologies once again for my negativity. It’s just that these issues matter. We are literally watching aspects of 1984 (and 1930) happen before our eyes, and it’s hard not to take a vehement stand when that is witnessed first hand

 
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None of these people learn - but, for the love of god, and all things holy, stay as far away from Trump's orbit as you can get.   Nobody survives.  Whatever you think you get - its never worth it.
I liked in Taylor's comments where he says his wife basically told him in no uncertain terms not to take the Ukraine post.  She knew there was no good to come from it.  I give the guy some credit for apparently being a stand-up servant committed to serving the US national interest, but his wife was right.

 
Mostly agree. If Trump's approval rating among Republicans plummet below 50 (and I really don't see any way that it could, at all) maybe. 
Thing is I doubt that ever happens with the existing echo chamber at Fox, etc.   That did not exist when Nixon was President.  

 
its disappointing that after a years’ hiatus, the truth is still subjugated here to a false promise of being excellent.    
I ask that people be civil to each other here and discuss issues.

It's disappointing to hear you think I'm promoting some sort of "false premise" in order to subjugate truth.
Your policy on quoting is (and I'm quoting you here), "If you quote someone, make it accurate."

You've also made it clear that it is not permissible to alter a quote.

You have shown that you're willing to enforce these policies by suspending posters who don't comply.

The issue, I think, is that certain posters have been allowed to circumvent the spirit of this policy -- for example, by changing "not a verbatim transcript" to "transcript", or by changing "does not say he could not prove collusion" to "no collusion".

When someone deliberately misquotes or mischaracterizes a document, it's just as detrimental as deliberately misquoting a person. They are both elements of fake news. When you allow one form of disinformation while banning another, then it creates the appearance of subjugating the truth.

 
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Somehow I’m betting that Trump has never heard that song in his entire life. He strikes me as a classic rock guy, with maybe a little top 40 and Sinatra thrown in. 
Here’s everything you ever wanted to know about Trump and music:

The Donald, on the other hand, goes deep on music, revealing a man whose musical life is just as surprising as every other part of his personality.

1. He was an early starter

"Even in elementary school, I was a very assertive, aggressive kid. In the second grade I actually gave a teacher a black eye - I punched my music teacher because I didn't think he knew anything about music and I almost got expelled. I'm not proud of that, but it's clear evidence that even early on I had a tendency to stand up and make my opinions known in a very forceful way."

Trump: The Art of the Deal (1987)

[His schoolmates do not remember the incident, according to The Washington Post.]

2. He's a fan of classic singers, like Tony Bennett...

"There's so much great music. For me, I'd have to say it's a toss up between Frank Sinatra, Tony Bennett, and Elton John. I never get tired of listening to them and probably never will… Any album by any of them is bound to be fantastic.

"And besides that, Tony lives in one of my buildings."

Think Like a Billionaire (2004)

3. ...as well as Eminem

"And by the way, I also love Eminem."

Think Like a Billionaire (2004)

[Eminem, however, does not love Trump, judging by his recent track Campaign Speech.]

4. He doesn't like reggae, he loves it

"I heard the guest band, Toots & The Maytals, practising out on the set [of Saturday Night Live; Trump co-hosted an episode in April 2004]. They sounded terrific, and I went out to listen to them for a while. My daughter Ivanka had told me how great they were, and she was right. The music relaxed me, and surprisingly, I was not nervous."

Think Like a Billionaire (2004)

5. He doesn't mind if you think his taste in music is cheesy

"In Trump Tower, we play a variety of music - anything from renditions of Moon River to versions of Rachmaninov's famous piano concertos. Some people call it cheesy, but others love it, and so do I.

"If you love a certain kind of music, don't let other people's tastes influence your own. Whatever's the best for you is the best. Never forget that."

Think Like a Billionaire (2004)

6. He thinks Steve Reich is a great innovator

"I remember reading about a composer named Steve Reich who came up with a new idea called phasing, which is like windshield wipers going in and out of synch. Apparently he was caught in a traffic jam one rainy day and the rhythm of the windshield wipers caught his attention and he applied what he heard to his musical compositions. He has had a significant influence on contemporary music, and I think he's a great example as an innovator. Sometimes new ideas can come from something as mundane and functional as your windshield wipers. The key is to pay attention and keep your brain and senses open to new stimuli."

Think Like a Champion (2009)

[In the above clip, Reich explains phasing and how it came about. It didn't actually involve windscreen wipers, although he has used them as an analogy elsewhere.]

7. He's a champion singer

"Focus is a tricky thing. Focus does not mean that you narrow your mind and become inflexible. That is taking focus too far. Just recently I attended the Emmy Awards in Los Angeles because The Apprentice was nominated for the Best Reality Show. I was also asked to sing the [TV show] Green Acres theme song… [while] dressed in overalls and a straw hat and holding a pitchfork.

"This was not really my thing. I am no Tony Bennett, Frank Sinatra, or Elton John… I could easily have said, 'No'... I did it, though, and as a result I won the talent category for the night beating out five other big movie star types, including the wonderful William Shatner. I would not have had this wonderful experience if I had not been flexible."

Think Big: Make It Happen in Business and Life (2008)

8. He believes he played a part in Lady Gaga's success

"I own the Miss Universe Pageant and have made it very, very successful. One day my people came to me and told me about a young woman they called Lady Gaga, who nobody had ever heard of. We put her on as the entertainer in the middle of the pageant, which is broadcast internationally. I thought, 'Wow, she is really, really good.' The next day, it was crazy. Everybody was talking about how good Lady Gaga was… Well, she became a big star and maybe she became a star because I put her on the Miss Universe Pageant. It's very possible…

"She's a fantastic person, solid as a rock and I'm very proud of her success because I really believe I had at least something to do with it."

Time to Get Tough (2011)

[Lady Gaga supports Clinton and told BBC News, above, "I have nothing to say of him."]

9. He's taken business tips from the world's orchestras

"Running a business is like being an orchestra conductor. When you lead an organisation or a business, you, like a conductor, must take charge and exercise control. How well your people perform is your responsibility, direction flows from the top, and you're the maestro.

"When the orchestra plays, the maestro maintains the tempo. Imagine if each orchestra member set his or her own pace and played at his or her own speed. It would be a cacophony, an ear-shattering mess, a disaster. When a business doesn’t follow a steady tempo, it can also create chaos...

"In my organisation, I set a rapid pace, which is called allegro in symphonic circles."

Trump 101: The Way to Success (2007) 

"I have to admit that my knowledge of classical music is limited."

How to Get Rich (2004)

10. He likes to compare his story to Sinatra's

"I have the greatest respect for people who have experienced adversity and then come back. I was one of those people in the early 90s… It was not unlike what happened to Frank Sinatra in the early 50s. Like me, he lost focus. He took his eye off the ball and he made some bad decisions. (Also like me, it was beautiful women that had a little something to do with his troubles, but that is another story for another time.)

Think Big: Make It Happen in Business and Life (2008)

11. He prefers musicians who have made it big

"Can you imagine if Luciano Pavarotti had been singing, contentedly, in some obscure place his whole life, what we would have missed? Or if Elton John was happy to just sing for himself in a garage somewhere? There's nothing wrong with bringing your talents to the surface. Having an ego and acknowledging it is a healthy choice."

Think Like a Champion (2009)

[Pavarotti's widow has asked Trump's campaignto stop playing his music at rallies, as Trump's "world vision" did not match that of her late-husband.]

12. He thinks Paul McCartney is a "schmuck"

"Look at Paul McCartney, the poor b******. This ex-Beatle is one of the greatest musical stars of our time. He has sold millions and millions of records and become a millionaire many times over… Then his wife Linda died of breast cancer, and he married Heather Mills. Who ever heard of Heather Mills?

"I remember watching Larry King before Paul and Heather were married. Larry King said, 'Sir Paul, are you going to have a pre-nuptial agreement?' He said, 'I'd never have one, Larry. I don't want one, because we're deeply in love, and I don’t want one.' I thought, 'What a mistake. This guy's a schmuck...' Sure as hell she made his life miserable for three years, then sued him for $400 million."

Think Big: Make It Happen in Business and Life (2008)

[McCartney, unsurprisingly, supports Clinton]

13. But, ultimately, he prefers golf to music

"Everyone has his or her own way of letting go of steam, letting go of tension, and changing thinking patterns. Whatever works for you is the best choice, as long as it's not self-destructive or destructive to others. That's why I like golf…

"What I do in my office at times is to practise my swing, or I'll just pick up a golf club and think about the game. That action alone is a breath of fresh air - even if it's office air - and helps me see things creatively or in a new light. I know that some people find music or exercise does that for them, but for me it's golf."

Never Give Up (2008)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/music/articles/e5e4572a-0676-4120-9eb3-d34bbea34836
 
its disappointing that after a years’ hiatus, the truth is still subjugated here to a false promise of being excellent.    
I ask that people be civil to each other here and discuss issues.

It's disappointing to hear you think I'm promoting some sort of "false premise" in order to subjugate truth.
Your policy on quoting is (and I'm quoting you here), "If you quote someone, make it accurate."

You've also made it clear that it is not permissible to alter a quote.

You have shown that you're willing to enforce these policies by suspending posters who don't comply.

The issue, I think, is that certain posters have been allowed to circumvent the spirit of this policy -- for example, by changing "not a verbatim transcript" to "transcript", or by changing "does not say he could not prove collusion" to "no collusion".

When someone deliberately misquotes or mischaracterizes a document, it's just as detrimental as deliberately misquoting a person. They are both elements of fake news. When you allow one form of disinformation while banning another, then it creates the appearance of subjugating the truth.
And lets be fair.  @[scooter] isn't saying you are doing too much and your desire to make things on the board better are not welcomed, I think he is just trying to assist you in taking the next logical step.

 
And lets be fair.  @[scooter] isn't saying you are doing too much and your desire to make things on the board better are not welcomed, I think he is just trying to assist you in taking the next logical step.
I think that's what we'd all like - and we recognize the difficult situation y'all are in.

 
Then why have we heard next to nothing from the democrats to combat Trump's (and the GOP) claims that Republicans are not in the room with this inquiry?

Why the continued lies about the server that still get parroted by Trump and the GOP?

Why do so many still believe it?

I don't think Democrats are getting the message out well.  And that means getting it out to places where "Republicans" get their information.  
I think you're hearing that narrative from Conservative and Pro-Trump media sources. That hasn't been my experience though on something even as vanilla as Good Morning America.  

 
Then why have we heard next to nothing from the democrats to combat Trump's (and the GOP) claims that Republicans are not in the room with this inquiry?

Why the continued lies about the server that still get parroted by Trump and the GOP?

Why do so many still believe it?

I don't think Democrats are getting the message out well.  And that means getting it out to places where "Republicans" get their information.  
Agrred, Nancy should hold a press conference and clear things up.  And then clearly state that Gaetz et al know this and are just grandstanding for Trump - which is the other reason they are not in the room.

 
Agrred, Nancy should hold a press conference and clear things up.  And then clearly state that Gaetz et al know this and are just grandstanding for Trump - which is the other reason they are not in the room.
Nancy probably would have done this yesterday, but they did this while she was at her brother's funeral.

 
GOP members of the House (and Senate - if Graham and McConnell go through with a resolution condemning the House) - must think their supporters are really dumb.

Andrew Napolitano: "As frustrating as it may be to have these hearings going on behind closed doors ... they are consistent with the rules. ... When were the rules written last? In January of 2015. And who signed them? John Boehner. And who enacted them? A Republican majority."

 
Moderation that forces us to “agree to disagree” with flat out, repeatedly disproven lies, only serves as an accomplice to those who purposefully distort the truth.  
 

By putting liars on the same ground as those who tirelessly provide objective truths and underlying facts, is to be a part of the problem that is unraveling of this great nation and our democracy.

its disappointing that after a years’ hiatus, the truth is still subjugated here to a false promise of being excellent. As if letting liars continue to lie, unfettered, is excellent for anything other than to promote the very propaganda and misinformation campaign those who perpetuate those lies seek, in the first place.

Take a stand for what is right - or at least what is truth. 
:bow:

 
Andrew Napolitano: "As frustrating as it may be to have these hearings going on behind closed doors ... they are consistent with the rules. ... When were the rules written last? In January of 2015. And who signed them? John Boehner. And who enacted them? A Republican majority."
Nap is cracking me up. Heads must explode in the production booth when he's talking.

 
I mean evidence presented to the public in the form of a public hearing or an unedited transcript released by the House. 
Okay.  I mean, a lot of it is the same evidence we've already seen, but if we need it to be handed over in a hearing for that to be enough evidence, I'm down.

 
Your policy on quoting is (and I'm quoting you here), "If you quote someone, make it accurate."

You've also made it clear that it is not permissible to alter a quote.

You have shown that you're willing to enforce these policies by suspending posters who don't comply.

The issue, I think, is that certain posters have been allowed to circumvent the spirit of this policy -- for example, by changing "not a verbatim transcript" to "transcript", or by changing "does not say he could not prove collusion" to "no collusion".

When someone deliberately misquotes or mischaracterizes a document, it's just as detrimental as deliberately misquoting a person. They are both elements of fake news. When you allow one form of disinformation while banning another, then it creates the appearance of subjugating the truth.
"If you quote someone, make it accurate."

That's correct and that's what we want. 

I think people assume moderators see every post. I think there's some sense that if something isn't deleted it's "allowed" or "endorsed". That's not remotely accurate. It likely means it wasn't seen. How that turns into us being accused of intentionally "subjugating the truth" is beyond disappointing. I don't really care for me. I'm used to it. But guys like @Maurile Tremblay and @Aaron Rudnicki are near saints. That bums out hugely for you to accuse them of something like that. 

If you see a quote and it's not accurate, please report it. I don't know how to be more clear than that. 

 
This seems to be the latest Trump defense: Trump was right to look into the Ukranian gov't illegally meddling in US politics.

I'd give more weight to this if Trump asked about Manafort in his "perfect" phone call.  I know Guliani has been barking up this tree, but from what I've heard, he's the only one.  "Corruption" has been defined as Biden, and Crowdstrike is a separate issue.
:lmao:  That would be so like this buncha Keystone Kops to send in a former mayor of New York City and the Secretary of State on an "undercover" mission.

 
"If you quote someone, make it accurate."

That's correct and that's what we want. 

I think people assume moderators see every post. I think there's some sense that if something isn't deleted it's "allowed" or "endorsed". That's not remotely accurate. It likely means it wasn't seen. How that turns into us being accused of intentionally "subjugating the truth" is beyond disappointing. I don't really care for me. I'm used to it. But guys like @Maurile Tremblay and @Aaron Rudnicki are near saints. That bums out hugely for you to accuse them of something like that. 

If you see a quote and it's not accurate, please report it. I don't know how to be more clear than that. 
yeah i got a 4 day ban for this.......

 

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