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***Official Donald J. Trump Impeachment (Whistleblower) Thread*** (10 Viewers)

This is not related to Ukraine - but it seems like it could be important:

Bradley P. Moss@BradMossEsq ·1h

Trump denied in writing and under oath to Mueller any recollection of ever discussing WikiLeaks with Stone or being aware of Stone discussing WikiLeaks with the campaign.

Gates testified he was in the car with Trump when he Trump talked to Stone about it.

 
This is not related to Ukraine - but it seems like it could be important:

Bradley P. Moss@BradMossEsq ·1h

Trump denied in writing and under oath to Mueller any recollection of ever discussing WikiLeaks with Stone or being aware of Stone discussing WikiLeaks with the campaign.

Gates testified he was in the car with Trump when he Trump talked to Stone about it.
If it comes to it, he can just say he forgot.  

 
I still don't get why people are against the whistleblower being questioned. Shouldn't everyone involved be questioned? Make it private, behind closed doors and release the testimony.

 
I still don't get why people are against the whistleblower being questioned. Shouldn't everyone involved be questioned? Make it private, behind closed doors and release the testimony.
Questioned about what? Everything he knows is second-hand -- i.e., it's hearsay.

Why ask a bunch of questions calling for hearsay when non-hearsay testimony is available?

 
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I still don't get why people are against the whistleblower being questioned. Shouldn't everyone involved be questioned? Make it private, behind closed doors and release the testimony.
I can answer for myself and what I would do if I were Adam Schiff...

Devin Nunes and his staff cannot be trusted to not leak the identity of the whistleblower. Full stop. They've already done it in various ways. And they don't need his testimony because he wasn't a firsthand witness to anything - he wasn't actually involved in any of the events that took place. 

 
I still don't get why people are against the whistleblower being questioned. Shouldn't everyone involved be questioned? Make it private, behind closed doors and release the testimony.
not sure how you keep it secret. too many avenues for leaks. But I’m not totally opposed to him going on record about how he found out.

 
Questioned about what? Everything he knows is second hand -- i.e., it's hearsay.

Why ask a bunch of questions calling for hearsay when non-hearsay testimony is available?
:shrug:  Let's see what he has to say. It just seems weird to be able to initiate this and be able to throw up your hands and say "no questions!" 

 
He’s the freaking whistleblower, what do you mean “what can he add?”  Even the lady who always screams and wails about Trump on CNN is blasting the Democrats for lack of transparency here. 

It’s pretty obvious the reason Schiff won’t let him testify is because he helped coach this guy behind the scenes and write his initial complaint. 
Serious question, but you have to answer both parts.  

Let's say the whistleblower is a Democrat. Would that taint your view of the evidence in this case?   Would you believe the evidence and testimony of everyone else who has testified since more or less because a Democrat initially raised the concern? 

Now the second part. If it was a long time trump ally and a Republican, would you believe the evidence and testimony more?  

 
:shrug:  Let's see what he has to say. It just seems weird to be able to initiate this and be able to throw up your hands and say "no questions!" 
But to Maurile's point - what do you expect him/her to say?

By all accounts - the whistleblower was in a position to get information from different sources - that may not have talked to each other.

What is relevant now:

1.  Were those sources accurate?

2.  Do those sources have other information that bears on the question about Trump's role in the Ukraine aid/Biden Investigation?

3.  Are there other witnesses to that could provide relevant testimony on those issues - either incriminatory or exculpatory? 

From what we know - the whistle blower was not in a position to know these things first-hand.  Lets here from those that were.

 
But to Maurile's point - what do you expect him/her to say?

By all accounts - the whistleblower was in a position to get information from different sources - that may not have talked to each other.

What is relevant now:

1.  Were those sources accurate?

2.  Do those sources have other information that bears on the question about Trump's role in the Ukraine aid/Biden Investigation?

3.  Are there other witnesses to that could provide relevant testimony on those issues - either incriminatory or exculpatory? 

From what we know - the whistle blower was not in a position to know these things first-hand.  Lets here from those that were.
I say lets hear from everyone. We're talking about impeaching a sitting President. No stone unturned.

 
:shrug:  Let's see what he has to say. It just seems weird to be able to initiate this and be able to throw up your hands and say "no questions!" 
He/she's offered to answer questions and have direct communication between him/her and the GOP leadership via their lawyer.  If there's another way to keep their identity secret, I'm all ears.  That's the driver for a whistle blower process.  

 
I say lets hear from everyone. We're talking about impeaching a sitting President. No stone unturned.
I am hearing you.  But - you would not want Congress taking time to call me as a witness, as an example.

You want Congress to focus on people with relevant information.  The Whistleblower is not one of those people - at this stage of the game.

 
When this all came out - the whistleblower, and their credibility were important.

The whistleblower was saying he/she knew of a half-dozen officials who had evidence that the President may have committed impeachable acts.

So - the most important thing at the outset was - Can we trust the whistleblower?  And, who are these witnesses?  Will they confirm the allegations set out by the whistleblower.

Once those witnesses were identified - everything shifted.  The whistleblower - no matter their allegiance - told the truth about the existence of these witnesses.  Now, the only thing that mattered is what do these witnesses say?  Can we trust their information?  Do they have reason to lie?  Can the information they give us be corroborated by documents or other independent witnesses?  Are there other witnesses who can confirm or reject these allegations?

 
Whistleblower:

"Over the past four months, more than half a dozen U.S. officials have informed me of various facts related to this effort. The information provided herein was relayed to me in the course of official interagency business. It is routine for U.S. officials with responsibility for a particular regional or functional portfolio to share such information with one another in order to inform policymaking and analysis."

This is the relevant part - has congress identified those US Officials?

"I was not a direct witness to most of the events described. However, I found my colleagues’ accounts of these events to be credible because, in almost all cases, multiple officials recounted fact patterns that were consistent with one another. In addition, a variety of information consistent with these private accounts has been reported publicly."

This is another way of saying - I can't verify that what they are saying is true - but I believe them, and you should talk to them about the allegations.

"I am deeply concerned that the actions described below constitute “a serious or flagrant problem, abuse, or violation of law or Executive Order” that “does not include differences of opinions concerning public policy matters,” consistent with the definition of an “urgent concern” in 50 U.S.C.3033(k)(5)(A). I am therefore fulfilling my duty to report this information, through proper legal channels, to the relevant authorities.

I am also concerned that these actions pose risks to U.S. national security and undermine the U.S. Government’s efforts to deter and counter foreign interference in U.S. elections."

Different people were aware of different aspects of the ongoing saga.  Some people knew about the call.  Some people knew about Rudy.  Some people knew about Mulvaney.  The whistleblower was simply able to see the bigger picture by having access to all their stories - not compartmentalized versions.

 
I was going to bring up a hypothetical but I think that is frowned upon here now so I'll just let my previous statements stand. 

Personally, I would like to know more and feel it is relevant. I understand that others don't see the need. I'll leave it at that.

 
I was going to bring up a hypothetical but I think that is frowned upon here now so I'll just let my previous statements stand. 

Personally, I would like to know more and feel it is relevant. I understand that others don't see the need. I'll leave it at that.
Eh, hypos are fine, no? Just say it's a hypothetical so no one misunderstands.

 
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I still don't get why people are against the whistleblower being questioned. Shouldn't everyone involved be questioned? Make it private, behind closed doors and release the testimony.
There's nothing more to learn. I don't for the life of me get why is important except for the fact the right wing blow torch machine can use some casual fact and blow it up into some assinine conspiracy theory. Hell they already have as evidenced by the fact we're even talking about this. 

Republicans wouldn't even interview a properly nominated supreme court justice candidate but we have to chase every shadow they want to talk about. 

There's LOTS of stuff they don;t want to talk about and that's what the real point is. Talk about anything but how blatantly guilty the president is. 

Man he has dragged a lot of grossly unethical behavior out of the shadows.  

 
There's nothing more to learn. I don't for the life of me get why is important except for the fact the right wing blow torch machine can use some casual fact and blow it up into some assinine conspiracy theory. Hell they already have as evidenced by the fact we're even talking about this. 

Republicans wouldn't even interview a properly nominated supreme court justice candidate but we have to chase every shadow they want to talk about. 

There's LOTS of stuff they don;t want to talk about and that's what the real point is. Talk about anything but how blatantly guilty the president is. 

Man he has dragged a lot of grossly unethical behavior out of the shadows.  
You sure do read a lot into a simple question.

 
Former deputy Trump campaign chairman, Rick Gates said in open court today at the Roger Stone trial that Trump directly informed by Stone about upcoming Wikileaks releases. The campaign also coordinated and planned their efforts around Wikileaks releases.

Kind of against the law. 

But hey......whistelblower amirite? 

 
I was going to bring up a hypothetical but I think that is frowned upon here now so I'll just let my previous statements stand. 

Personally, I would like to know more and feel it is relevant. I understand that others don't see the need. I'll leave it at that.
I for one would like to hear the hypothetical. Because I am trying to come up with a reason why the whistleblower’s testimony at this time is relevant. I can’t come up with a situation as to how it would be. 

 
:shrug:  Let's see what he has to say. It just seems weird to be able to initiate this and be able to throw up your hands and say "no questions!" 
It's not weird. If we compare this to a trial, civil or criminal, the only witnesses who are allowed to testify at trial are: (a) people who witnessed relevant things, or (b) people who have expert opinions about relevant things.

In the whistleblower's case, he already told us in his report that he didn't witness anything relevant. He knows only what other people (who did witness things) told him. Also, nobody's claiming that he's an expert on what is or isn't impeachable.

Let's say we call him to testify. How would the testimony go?

Q. Tell us whatever you know.

A. Mogadishu is the capital of Somalia.

Q. No, what things relevant to the impeachment inquiry do you know? Do you have reason to believe that Trump did impeachable things?

A. I'm not an expert on what constitutes an impeachable act, but I have reason to believe he did things that are rather troubling.

Q. Did you see him do troubing things?

A. Me? No.

Q. Then what's your basis for believing that he did troubling things?

A. The Vindman guy told me that he saw Trump do very troubling things.

At this point, we really care about what Vindman claims to know. We care about Vindman's substantive claims, we care about how well he seems to remember what he saw, we care about whether his observations seem to be accurate, and we care about his truthfulness. We're not going to get very far talking to the whistleblower about those things ... we need to hear from Vindman himself. Second-hand information doesn't count when first-hand information is available. In a court, if the whistleblower tried to testify about what Vindman told him, it would generally be inadmissible.

Getting information from the whistleblower is important so we know who the actual witnesses should be. That was the point of the whistleblower's report. But now that we're holding hearings, we want to hear from the actual witnesses.

Courtroom rules of evidence don't strictly apply to these hearings, and I do think there's one important exception to everything I just wrote.

Q. What's your basis for believing that Trump did troubling things?

A. John Bolton told me that he saw Trump do very troubling things.

In this scenario, we really want John Bolton's testimony. But what if we can't get it? What if Bolton refuses to testify based on instructions from the White House? And what if we can't get a court to order him to testify in a timely manner, or what if he violates such an order?

In that situation, whether the whistleblower should be called to testify becomes more complicated. Now his testimony might be the best way to find out what John Bolton knows, which seems kind of important. So now we have to weigh competing interests against each other -- the whistleblower's privacy versus the national importance of the information he might have.

But absent a situation like that, I think it's a pretty easy call to pursue direct testimony rather than hearsay.

 
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There's no real defense for Trump so they're using this whistleblower nonsense to make it seem like there is one (and no quid pro quo before that, secret depositions before that, no impeachment vote before that, etc.).

None of them are legitimate of course, but they don't have many other options so there'll be another one soon enough. Get used to it.
To be fair, I think we are up to about 25 different defenses for Trump

 
I still don't get why people are against the whistleblower being questioned. Shouldn't everyone involved be questioned? Make it private, behind closed doors and release the testimony.
Well whistleblower statutes exist in a lot of places, that's the point, to protect them. I'd hope that everyone would think those are inviolable. It's about being a tool against corruption (or crime, because people who report crimes are protected all the time in the criminal system) and free speech.

I will say that the Framers did not anticipate the possibility of an impeachment based on anonymous testimony. However if the impeachment proceeding doesn't rely on the WB, don't rely on his/her report, and it's not used in the impeachment proceeding at all, there's no real evidentiary point to be made, which I guess was MT's point.

 
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Is there any sort of history for/precedence of whistleblowers testifying? I think making whistleblowers testify would tend to reduce the likelihood of people performing a whistleblower duty in future for fear of having to publicly testify (blowing their anonymity).
No, there is no precedent, anywhere, for it.

But there is precedent for people who don't use the whistleblower statues. Snowden and Manning both decided to simply leak and release hard evidence of whatever xyz activity that they though was taking place. Because it was classified it was illegal, so Manning ended up in jail and Snowden ended up in exile (because he would be jailed if he set foot back in the US).

So Trump supporters or skeptics, what should people who are aware of possible unethical or criminal activity do? Leak internal government documents and conversations? That would be a crime. Go to a partisan politician to push it? Partisanship kills any such investigation.

It sounds like the argument is just that people who are aware of possible wrongdoing should just shut the hell up.

 
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The biggest shame that there is such a lack of integrity in our government's (departments/agencies) leadership that we need whistleblowers.  Because of that, I'm willing to protect them at all costs.  And there is no reason to make them testify if their stories hold true after investigation.

 
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I say lets hear from everyone. We're talking about impeaching a sitting President. No stone unturned.
Sounds like the President disagrees. His tweet:

Donald J. Trump‏ @realDonaldTrump 3h3 hours ago

Why is such a focus put on 2nd and 3rd hand witnesses, many of whom are Never Trumpers, or whose lawyers are Never Trumpers, when all you have to do is read the phone call (transcript) with the Ukrainian President and see first hand? He and others also stated that there was.....

 
kodycutter said:

Why would the whistleblower have an anonymous Go Fund Me Page. So weird this whole thing.

The whistleblower doesn't have an anonymous GoFundMe page.

A group called Whistleblower Aid has created a GoFundMe on behalf of multiple whistleblowers, but it's not anonymous at all -- it's run by a guy named John Tye, who had blown the whistle on some electronic surveillance practices during the Obama administration.
 
Possible path to impeachment and trump resignation

- may require at least 3 Republican senators to request votes to be anonymous

- without a public voting record, there's a much higher chance of impeachment

- trump negotiates with state attorneys to drop charges in exchange for his resignation

- trump resigns and pence pardons him

Of course this is not the ideal solution for any party involved, but that's how compromises work.  It's a plausible solution if the political winds continue to change. 
This doesn't seem very workable to me.  Republican Senators are scared to remove Trump because his supporters will be pissed and vote against Republicans or not vote at all.  Now let's say that there's a secret ballot and he's removed, meaning that at least 37% of the Republican caucus voted against him.  Is it realistic that the Trump supporters would just shrug and say "well, we don't know which Republicans voted which way so we won't punish any of them"?  It seems far more likely to me that a secret ballot would just paint all the Republican Senators with suspicion.

 
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Q. Did you see him do troubing things?

A. Me? No.

Q. Then what's your basis for believing that he did troubling things?

A. The Vindman guy told me that he saw Trump do very troubling things.
And if I've learned anything from Judge Judy, the judge would then tell the witness "Don't tell me what someone told you! Tell me what YOU saw!"

 
Don't take my white shirt and blue tie, sans jacket, as any indication of my allegiance.

But, please, call me Mayor Sinn. 
Somewhere, I've still got an old photo of me in front of a decrepit, windows-smashed, falling-apart building in Belfast, pointing to a spraypainted sign that says "VOTE FOR SINN FEIN".   I was gonna use it for Werewolf purposes, but it also applies here.

 
I say lets hear from everyone. We're talking about impeaching a sitting President. No stone unturned.
I say stick to the whistleblower rules that were in place at the time the whistle was blown. Not against changing the rules, but rule changes should only affect future whistleblowers.

 
And if I've learned anything from Judge Judy, the judge would then tell the witness "Don't tell me what someone told you! Tell me what YOU saw!"
maybe that's the play.

"See?  the whistleblower didn't actually see anything himself!  This whole thing is made up because the whistleblower is a deep state never-Trumper!"*

* not an actual quote...yet.

 
This doesn't seem very workable to me.  Republican Senators are scared to remove Trump because his supporters will be pissed and vote against Republicans or not vote at all.  Now let's say that there's a secret ballot and he's removed, meaning that at least 37% of the Republican caucus voted against him.  Is it realistic that the Trump supporters would just shrug and say "well, we don't know which Republicans voted which way so we won't punish any of them"?  It seems far more likely to me that a secret ballot would just paint all the Republican Senators with suspicion.
Right but that's why trump resignation then becomes the path. As soon as the Senate sets their rules and votes in favor of a secret ballot, he knows he's cooked, and his resignation means Senate Republicans don't have to vote for removal.

 
This should help Trump's defense:

Kyle Griffin @kylegriffin1 · 13m

Breaking via NYT: Trump has discussed dismissing the intelligence community's inspector general, Michael Atkinson, because Atkinson reported the whistleblower's complaint about Trump's interactions with Ukraine to Congress.

 
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This should help Trump's defense:

Kyle Griffin @kylegriffin1 · 13m

Breaking via NYT: Trump has discussed dismissing the intelligence community's inspector general, Michael Atkinson, because Atkinson reported the whistleblower's complaint about Trump's interactions with Ukraine to Congress.
And people wonder why the whistleblower needs to remain anonymous. All Atkinson did was follow the law.

 
This should help Trump's defense:

Kyle Griffin @kylegriffin1 · 13m

Breaking via NYT: Trump has discussed dismissing the intelligence community's inspector general, Michael Atkinson, because Atkinson reported the whistleblower's complaint about Trump's interactions with Ukraine to Congress.
I see that "terrible idea when facing impeachment #5309" is in effect.

 
So I’ve been saying for a couple weeks now that EVERYTHING changes after tomorrow. I really don’t think that a lot of people get this. A few in the media do. The way we think about this affair, about Trump, about the Republicans defend Trump- all of that’s going to change. 

For example- if Jim Jordan and the other Republicans try to portray the witnesses as Democrats or Never Trumpers, which the memo linked today says they will- that’s going to backfire in a terrible way. 

 

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