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***Official Donald J. Trump Impeachment (Whistleblower) Thread***

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39 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

Absolutely.  New York Times is not worth buying a subscription to.  

Its not the only place reporting this.  Try again...about the actual story and not a shot at a poster or the paper.  Act like the allegations are against AOC instead of Trump.

Edited by sho nuff

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36 minutes ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

CNN

Obviously its a lot of speculation now - but procedurally this is kind of fascinating, given the various reactions.

Its not hard to envision a scenario where Gordon becomes aware of "troubling" information via Intelligence sources that borders on illegal or endangering national security.  We are pretty certain this involves Trump directly, but we should leave open the possibility that it involves a senior White House official - there are only a few people that this would ensnare - Kushner or Miller come to mind.

SPECULATING  - Gordon takes the information to Coats, who tells her there is nothing he can do personally, but that she should file it with the IG - so she does.  Coats and Gordon may now be witnesses, and essentially have to step down - but maybe forced out.  IG looks at the issues, decides its credible and urgent - and passes it on to Maguire - who is now in Coats role.

Maguire looks at the info - and it may be incredibly damaging to the President, personally or politically, but Maguire, after consulting DOJ, determines that this is above his pay-grade, and even if the allegations are 100% accurate, there is no action for him to take - thus making a determination that this is not a proper matter for the Intelligence IG to even handle - being that the wrongful conduct was not done by any IC personnel.

So - if the allegations are accurate, but not properly before the IG - where to next?  The original whistleblower could go to Congress directly - if it is determined this is not an Intelligence Community issue.  But, that then opens the whistleblower up to retaliation by the administration, given that it is not covered under this statute.  I don't know if there are other statutes that provide general protection in this instance - but I assume we are dealing with highly classified information, the disclosure of which is problematic.

Schiff will undoubtedly continue to pursue the complaint from Maguire - but if past lessons mean anything, the administration will not turn over the complaint - probably ever.  So, we go to court.  Then we go to the Court of Appeals.  Then we go to the Supreme Court.  Who knows how long that will take, or what that outcome might look like.  (My cynical side says the courts will rule based on the actual contents of the complaint - i.e. the more serious/credible the charges, the more likely the courts will rule against the President - even the packed Supreme Court.)

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12 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

Obviously its a lot of speculation now - but procedurally this is kind of fascinating, given the various reactions.

Its not hard to envision a scenario where Gordon becomes aware of "troubling" information via Intelligence sources that borders on illegal or endangering national security.  We are pretty certain this involves Trump directly, but we should leave open the possibility that it involves a senior White House official - there are only a few people that this would ensnare - Kushner or Miller come to mind.

SPECULATING  - Gordon takes the information to Coats, who tells her there is nothing he can do personally, but that she should file it with the IG - so she does.  Coats and Gordon may now be witnesses, and essentially have to step down - but maybe forced out.  IG looks at the issues, decides its credible and urgent - and passes it on to Maguire - who is now in Coats role.

Maguire looks at the info - and it may be incredibly damaging to the President, personally or politically, but Maguire, after consulting DOJ, determines that this is above his pay-grade, and even if the allegations are 100% accurate, there is no action for him to take - thus making a determination that this is not a proper matter for the Intelligence IG to even handle - being that the wrongful conduct was not done by any IC personnel.

So - if the allegations are accurate, but not properly before the IG - where to next?  The original whistleblower could go to Congress directly - if it is determined this is not an Intelligence Community issue.  But, that then opens the whistleblower up to retaliation by the administration, given that it is not covered under this statute.  I don't know if there are other statutes that provide general protection in this instance - but I assume we are dealing with highly classified information, the disclosure of which is problematic.

Schiff will undoubtedly continue to pursue the complaint from Maguire - but if past lessons mean anything, the administration will not turn over the complaint - probably ever.  So, we go to court.  Then we go to the Court of Appeals.  Then we go to the Supreme Court.  Who knows how long that will take, or what that outcome might look like.  (My cynical side says the courts will rule based on the actual contents of the complaint - i.e. the more serious/credible the charges, the more likely the courts will rule against the President - even the packed Supreme Court.)

I agree with most of your speculation though I think Maguire plays a more nefarious role and Coats got rejected at some point.

My addition to your speculation is that I think Coats was made aware of the information and tried to bring it to someone else, perhaps DOJ and got stonewalled by a Trump loyalist. That led to Trump finding out and pushing Coats out. 

Gordon initially was planning to fight to stay and be the true acting director but changed her mind when Coats approached her. What changed her mind? Possibly Coats convinced her that the best way to get the information out would be to use the whistleblower statute that appeared to be airtight to get the info to Congress.

She resigned and Trump looked for a loyalist who would bury the info and found Maguire and that’s the role he’s playing.

I think in the end, the whistleblower or someone with knowledge will go directly to Congress.

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12 minutes ago, Biff84 said:

I think in the end, the whistleblower or someone with knowledge will go directly to Congress.

Probably by the end of the month.

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2 hours ago, sho nuff said:

Any comments in the story being discussed and its potential implications?

Looks like there's a whole thread of comments in the story being discussed.  Weird question

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1 hour ago, sho nuff said:

Its not the only place reporting this.  Try again...about the actual story and not a shot at a poster or the paper.  Act like the allegations are against AOC instead of Trump.

:lmao:  The guy mentions the New York Times and you come back with this tripe?

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3 hours ago, Henry Ford said:

If this is what happened, and the Republican Party doesn't sign on to impeachment, they can go ahead and write my name off from voting for any Republican candidate until I die.

Welcome to the party pal!

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/whistleblower-complaint-about-president-trump-involves-ukraine-according-to-two-people-familiar-with-the-matter/2019/09/19/07e33f0a-daf6-11e9-bfb1-849887369476_story.html

Confirmed it’s Ukraine, and I’m causing fits by linking NYT and WaPo paywall articles.

Lets cut to the chase... it’s going to end up confirmed and documented that Trump pressured Ukraine to assist in reelection via investigation of Biden in direct exchange for $250m in military aid. It’s going to be that overt and illegal. This is a clear abuse of power and slam dunk impeachment based on any sane universe. How long can the Admin flout law and bury evidence? Because that’s how long Trump has before impeachment proceedings. I for one can’t wait for the GOP to have to vote to ignore the clearly documented case, but given history — we may need a special counsel to get to the bottom of things. 

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NYT: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/19/us/politics/intelligence-whistle-blower-complaint-trump.html

Though it is not clear how exactly Ukraine fits into the allegations, questions have already emerged about Mr. Trump’s dealing with its government. He spoke on July 25 with President Volodymyr Zelensky and said he was convinced that Ukraine’s new government would quickly improve the country’s image and investigate corruption, which “inhibited the interaction” between the two nations, according to a Ukrainian government summary of the call.

Mr. Trump’s close allies, including his personal lawyer Rudolph W. Giuliani, were also urging the Ukrainian government to investigate matters that could help Mr. Trump by embarrassing his political rivals, including former Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr.

According to government officials who handle foreign policy in the United States and Ukraine, Mr. Giuliani’s efforts created the impression that the Trump administration’s willingness to back Mr. Zelensky was linked to his government’s readiness to in turn pursue the investigations sought by Mr. Trump’s allies.

Mr. Giuliani said he did not know whether Mr. Trump discussed those matters with Mr. Zelensky, but argued it would not be appropriate.

The president has the right to tell another country’s leader to investigate corruption, particularly if it “bleeds over” into the United States, Mr. Giuliani said on Thursday. “If I were president, I would say that,” he added.

Around the same time, a separate issue was brewing. Congressional aides and administration officials who work on Ukraine issues had become concerned that the White House was slow-walking a military assistance package for Kiev, according to people involved in an effort to free up the assistance.

Last week, the two issues merged when Mr. Schiff and two other Democratic House committee chairmen requested the transcript of Mr. Trump’s call with Mr. Zelensky from the State Department and the White House as part of an investigation into whether Mr. Trump and Mr. Giuliani were misappropriating the American foreign policy apparatus for political gain.

The Democrats indicated they planned to examine whether the delay in the assistance “is part of President Trump’s effort to coerce the Ukrainian government into pursuing politically motivated investigations.”

The next day, Mr. Schiff wrote to Mr. Maguire seeking information about the whistle-blower complaint.

And the following day, the White House released the military assistance to Ukraine, with little explanation.

The unusual disagreement between Mr. Maguire and Mr. Atkinson centers on who is best suited to investigate the whistle-blower’s accusations.

In a letter to the leaders of the House Intelligence Committee, Mr. Atkinson wrote that the complaint falls within the jurisdiction of the director of national intelligence and “relates to one of the most significant and important of the D.N.I.’s responsibilities to the American people.”

Mr. Maguire has not disputed the seriousness of the allegation but determined in consultation with the Justice Department that it was outside the scope of the law requiring whistle-blower complaints be forwarded to Congress. Any accusation that triggers the requirement must involve the funding, administration or operations of an intelligence agency.

Administration officials have shared at least some details of the accusations with the White House, to allow officials to weigh whether to assert executive privilege, an official said.

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It sounds, to me, that Schiff knows exactly what is in the allegations - but is going through the motions to get the report through official channels.

 

 

But - if there is a tape of Trump offering financial aid in exchange for an investigation into Biden - I think that is well beyond what DC politicians would tolerate. 

 

But, if there is no tape, or if its kind of wishy-washy read-between-the-lines kind of stuff, then this goes nowhere.

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If I had to guess - its not going to be a black or white issue.

White House will claim that yes, aid was dependent on Ukraine cleaning up its act, and rooting out corruption.  And, that, on its face, would be fine.  The question will be how far the administration went towards pushing an investigation on Biden specifically in exchange for the aid package.

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4 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

It sounds, to me, that Schiff knows exactly what is in the allegations - but is going through the motions to get the report through official channels.

 

 

But - if there is a tape of Trump offering financial aid in exchange for an investigation into Biden - I think that is well beyond what DC politicians would tolerate. 

 

But, if there is no tape, or if its kind of wishy-washy read-between-the-lines kind of stuff, then this goes nowhere.

That’s what got Nixon- the tapes. If there were no tapes, Nixon never would have resigned. And if there was no stained dress, Clinton would have never admitted to an affair. 

You need evidence every time. 

 

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ALL ABOARD! this train is about to leave the station! 

i haven't been this excited since the fast willie parker train of aught-four! 

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I am completely shocked Trump would use U.S. tax dollars and resources to personally benefit from. 

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26 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

But - if there is a tape of Trump offering financial aid in exchange for an investigation into Biden - I think that is well beyond what DC politicians would tolerate.

I'll believe it when I see it....sadly

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9 minutes ago, snitwitch said:

mods, merge this with the russia thread please

:coffee:

Maybe Ukraine asked for Manafort and a coffee boy to be named later?

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1 minute ago, snitwitch said:

because all of this is part of the same story

Not if he’s offering to help Ukraine. 

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7 minutes ago, Thunderlips said:

Rush was downplaying it today.  Must be legit. 

Keep in mind that the Trump administration has probably had a month's head-start on preparing for the story, so I expect the talking points to be out quickly - if not already.

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1 minute ago, Sinn Fein said:

Keep in mind that the Trump administration has probably had a month's head-start on preparing for the story, so I expect the talking points to be out quickly - if not already.

We will read them here.

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A reminder that today we learned that the whistleblower complaint was about ‘a sequence of events’. This is just part of it.

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6 minutes ago, Juxtatarot said:

Rudy on Cuomo blaming Hillary, Biden and Soros...

Oh boy Rudy is going disclose the entire whistleblower info and then some. :popcorn:

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Just now, Biff84 said:

A reminder that today we learned that the whistleblower complaint was about ‘a sequence of events’. This is just part of it.

I think the cat is out of the bag right now - I would guess that the "sequence of events" all revolve around US aid to Ukraine in exchange for increased investigation into Biden's son.  One of the aspects was the phone call by Trump, other aspects probably involve other members of the Trump Administration and their conversations.

 

Team Trump will (already are) claim that Trump wanted Ukraine to clean up it corruption problem - and if that happened to include Biden's son, well, thats just dumb luck - he should not have been involved, and if he is part of the fall-out, it can't be helped.

The whistleblower - and the Trump-=appointed Inspector General - saw it differently.

 

Going back and looking at reporting from the past week around the US aid release - this theory of Trump holding the aid as inducement for a political favor seems to have been an open secret - which suggests this report from the whistle-blower has been "known" by key people for at least a few weeks.

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1 minute ago, Sinn Fein said:

I think the cat is out of the bag right now - I would guess that the "sequence of events" all revolve around US aid to Ukraine in exchange for increased investigation into Biden's son.  One of the aspects was the phone call by Trump, other aspects probably involve other members of the Trump Administration and their conversations.

 

Team Trump will (already are) claim that Trump wanted Ukraine to clean up it corruption problem - and if that happened to include Biden's son, well, thats just dumb luck - he should not have been involved, and if he is part of the fall-out, it can't be helped.

The whistleblower - and the Trump-=appointed Inspector General - saw it differently.

 

Going back and looking at reporting from the past week around the US aid release - this theory of Trump holding the aid as inducement for a political favor seems to have been an open secret - which suggests this report from the whistle-blower has been "known" by key people for at least a few weeks.

It won't matter

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46 minutes ago, JbizzleMan said:

I am completely shocked Trump would use U.S. tax dollars and resources to personally benefit from. 

That makes him smart. 

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Of course there are tapes (on both sides).  Coats (or whoever in his orbit) doesn’t go this route if there weren’t.

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And yes, much the the Steele Dossier that was floating around DC, I’m sure Schiff et al already know what’s in the complaint.  

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Dems and Nancy want nothing to do with this.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Gopher State said:

 

Dems and Nancy want nothing to do with this.

 

 

All they have to do is concentrate on the election, then they took a look at the candidates. Maybe they are backed into a corner here. 

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1 hour ago, timschochet said:

Not if he’s offering to help Ukraine. 

if ukraine is involved in this in any fashion, you can almost guarantee putin is as well

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23 minutes ago, Juxtatarot said:

Politifact article from May about the Bidens and Ukraine.   Apparently this is what this all stems from.

Transparent attempt to create a factory for Russian generated clickbait in run-up to election, which amounts to direct campaign interference with foreign assistance. Nail these ####ers to the wall.

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Vice President Mike Pence was about to finish a routine joint press conference with Polish President Andrzej Duda in Warsaw last week, when he got two astutely specific questions about his meeting the previous day with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy:

“Number one, did you discuss Joe Biden at all during that meeting yesterday with the Ukrainian President? And number two, can you assure Ukraine that the hold-up of [U.S. security assistance] has absolutely nothing to do with efforts, including by Rudy Giuliani, to try to dig up dirt on the Biden family?” Associated Press reporter Jill Colvin asked.

Pence answered the first question directly: “Well, on the first question, the answer is no.” His response to the second question was more interesting. He essentially demurred.

***

With the drama over assistance to Ukraine unfolding alongside Trump and Giuliani’s months-long drumbeat for an investigation into Biden’s role there, the clear impression is that the United States is extorting a partner country for political gain.

Asked directly about such a scenario in Warsaw, Pence didn’t deny it. In fact, his wording could be seen as an implied confirmation.

After answering a simple “no” to the question of whether he and Zelenskyy discussed Biden, Pence continued, almost as a caveat to the denial and with repeated references back to Trump: “But we … discussed America’s support for Ukraine and the upcoming decision the president will make on the latest tranche of financial support in great detail. The president asked me to meet with President Zelenskyy and to talk about the progress that he’s making on a broad range of areas. And we did that.”

“The United States has stood strong with Ukraine and we will continue to stand strong with Ukraine for its sovereignty and territorial integrity,” Pence said. “But as President Trump had me make clear, we have great concerns about issues of corruption.”

 

https://www.justsecurity.org/66101/trump-and-giulianis-quest-for-fake-ukraine-dirt-on-biden-an-explainer/

 

 

:coffee:

 

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I’d note Bolton was in that meeting with Pence and well, you know what happened to him as well (and he’s not a wallflower either).

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10 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

Vice President Mike Pence was about to finish a routine joint press conference with Polish President Andrzej Duda in Warsaw last week, when he got two astutely specific questions about his meeting the previous day with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy:

“Number one, did you discuss Joe Biden at all during that meeting yesterday with the Ukrainian President? And number two, can you assure Ukraine that the hold-up of [U.S. security assistance] has absolutely nothing to do with efforts, including by Rudy Giuliani, to try to dig up dirt on the Biden family?” Associated Press reporter Jill Colvin asked.

Pence answered the first question directly: “Well, on the first question, the answer is no.” His response to the second question was more interesting. He essentially demurred.

***

With the drama over assistance to Ukraine unfolding alongside Trump and Giuliani’s months-long drumbeat for an investigation into Biden’s role there, the clear impression is that the United States is extorting a partner country for political gain.

Asked directly about such a scenario in Warsaw, Pence didn’t deny it. In fact, his wording could be seen as an implied confirmation.

After answering a simple “no” to the question of whether he and Zelenskyy discussed Biden, Pence continued, almost as a caveat to the denial and with repeated references back to Trump: “But we … discussed America’s support for Ukraine and the upcoming decision the president will make on the latest tranche of financial support in great detail. The president asked me to meet with President Zelenskyy and to talk about the progress that he’s making on a broad range of areas. And we did that.”

“The United States has stood strong with Ukraine and we will continue to stand strong with Ukraine for its sovereignty and territorial integrity,” Pence said. “But as President Trump had me make clear, we have great concerns about issues of corruption.”

 

https://www.justsecurity.org/66101/trump-and-giulianis-quest-for-fake-ukraine-dirt-on-biden-an-explainer/

 

 

:coffee:

 

Have to think this whistleblower complaint, which is likely from Sue Gordon, has this quid pro quo fully documented. With IG finding allegations credible and urgent, it’s now a game to see how effective Admin can be in shielding facts from the American People. 

This would seem to corroborate that Trump’s orders were to tie military aid to an agreement that Ukraine investigate corruption, which is equitable to extortion to produce evidence of corruption on the Bidens - or else. 

You can see why this is described as a “gross abuse.”

Edited by Mr. Ham

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1 hour ago, Gopher State said:

 

Dems and Nancy want nothing to do with this.

 

 

Then they are cowards who are shirking their duties and should be voted out for being perpetually ineffective parasites.

Edited by Herb

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1 hour ago, Gopher State said:

Dems and Nancy want nothing to do with this.

What do Repubs and Mitch want?

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I don't think I have the words.

The OLC memo preventing indictment of the president has hardly been discussed here or nationally.

Watergate has been reversed and in fact as a practical matter the DOJ has been converted into a blocking mechanism for effective investigation for the President. 

And what happens is that people and institutions who play by the rules are stiffarmed. So here we go with the IG. It's the Kobiashi Maru. If the rules are crooked what do you do? The President was seeking to suppress the investigation(s) into him and Comey could go quietly and watch his memos go into the memory hole or he could recognize that the rules were created for normal presidents and ethical and empowered parties in Congress. Here the IC IG decided to stay within the rules - even as the new Dir DNI was breaking them.

The kicker? The DNI Coats was essentially an institutionalist - and so he was fired. So was his Dep DNI, Gordon, so she was fired. 

The result? Trump tried to install Ratcliffe, an absolute blank slate of morality and knowledge. He was turned out so in came Maguire.

This discussion over Ukraine apparently happened right around Coats' firing and right after Mueller's testimony. Trump believes his own bs. He thought and thinks he is totally free to act, unencumbered by the law or history or tradition. He believes he is above the law - and as a practical matter - between the DOJ memo and the complete unwillingness of many House Democrats to accept their constitutional duties - he may very well be. Trump is embracing it and so are his followers. This is a constitutional crisis.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006
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2 hours ago, Juxtatarot said:

Rudy on Cuomo blaming Hillary, Biden and Soros...

Can’t be George. I’ve received no check and no instructions. 

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1 hour ago, squistion said:

What do Repubs and Mitch want?

Bow down to their supreme leader

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