Godsbrother
Footballguy
I didn't agree with all of his politics but I used to like and respect Graham. Unfortunately he has revealed himself as hypocrite that has seemingly sold his soul to a person of low character.
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***Official Donald J. Trump Impeachment (Whistleblower) Thread*** (9 Viewers)
- Thread starter snitwitch
- Start date
Henry Ford
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
And they haven’t been clamoring for it for a couple of years. This is a myth consistently repeated by Trump defenders and it’s important to correct it:
1. Prior to the actual Mueller report issued to the public, there was only a tiny minority of Democrats in favor of impeaching Trump- somewhere around 20% I believe.
2. After the Mueller report was issued, that number rose to just under half of all Democrats. I was one of those who changed my mind at that point and supported impeachment. But we we were still a minority among Democrats, and we had virtually no support from independents.
3. Only after the Ukraine scandal emerged did the vast majority of Democrats, and a majority of independents, favor impeachment.
So this argument “they’ve been planning this all along” which you will hear again numerous times today is complete bunk.
1. Prior to the actual Mueller report issued to the public, there was only a tiny minority of Democrats in favor of impeaching Trump- somewhere around 20% I believe.
2. After the Mueller report was issued, that number rose to just under half of all Democrats. I was one of those who changed my mind at that point and supported impeachment. But we we were still a minority among Democrats, and we had virtually no support from independents.
3. Only after the Ukraine scandal emerged did the vast majority of Democrats, and a majority of independents, favor impeachment.
So this argument “they’ve been planning this all along” which you will hear again numerous times today is complete bunk.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
This would be a disaster for the Democrats. They have made their case and GOP has rejected it. Both are on record and eventually more crap is going to come out even after the senate votes against impeachment. Neither side will be able to walk away from it when the dust finally settles.
timschochet
Footballguy
Per reporting, here is the reason that Republicans are going to try and delay things today: if the actual vote takes place after dark this evening, then just like with Obamacare the Republicans can say “the Democrats did this in the dead of night!”
Sometimes politics are so stupid...
Sometimes politics are so stupid...
Drunken Cowboy
Footballguy
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Wapo.
- It's probably worth remembering what impeachment means. It means someone has lost credibility or authority to speak or act. Once someone is impeached at trial their testimony means nothing. Half the country does not accept what this president says or does, that's what this vote means. I don't know what the Senate can do about that. The Senate vote, ideally, just means that the conduct does not justify removal, but being impeached means that Trump has also automatically been found disqualified from holding the office.
That letter from Trump to Pelosi underlines the truth - all the talk about polls which are supposed to warn of impending doom and threats of inquisition fell by the wayside, and what we see is a paranoid, ranting authoritarian who is really and truly worried about what this means.
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SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
They're going to step on the President's line then, he has a rally tonight to overwrite the vote. I don't think Dems should mind if they get the last word on this before the holiday break.
-eta - That assumes the vote would be pushed to tomorrow. My guess is the real goal is to push the vote to tonight while Trump is actually speaking so no one in his media bubble hears it.
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Jayrod
Footballguy
There have absolutely been cries for impeachment of Trump from very early in his Presidency. There were people posting odds after the election that he wouldn't finish his term because the thought was so prevalent that eventually he would be impeached. I watch and listen to absolutely ZERO conservative media, this forum and Google news page is pretty much my pipeline to what is going on in the world. All during the Russia probe, there were cries and hope for impeachment.
There is a far cry difference between hunting for something to impeach him on and support for impeachment among the general public. Of course, there wasn't enough support until now, but for a long time there was a sentiment that he needed to be impeached. I don't know that it is all that different for any President in that the opposition is constantly looking for reasons to remove them from office, but I think the idea took root much more often and earlier because of how stupid Trump is and how hated he is.
Thunderlips
Footballguy
I think there's always a contingency on the opposite side scouring the minutia of what a POTUS says/does that could be presented as impeachable.
squistion
Footballguy
Yes, there were a few lone Democrats and pundits calling for that, but it was not taken seriously by Pelosi and the House Democratic leadership.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
I think the odds were about the fact that he’s clearly both lacking in cunning and intelligence and also a longstanding criminal. Which means he’s likely to be impeached.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Odds based on figuring he would do something impeachable...sure.
And any cries for impeachment from very early on were fringe at best. Until more and more came out about Russia.
There was not some huge push or even any meaningful push towards impeachment.
Bruce Dickinson
Footballguy
In defense of those calling for Trump’s impeachment early on... considering all things Michael Flynn related, the corruption around the inauguration funds, the refusal to cleanly divest from his businesses and the Emoluments Clause violations related to that... there was a strong case for impeachment out of the chute.
John Blutarsky
Footballguy
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efforts_to_impeach_Donald_Trump
Immediately after his inauguration, The Independent and The Washington Post each reported on efforts already underway to impeach Trump, based on what the organizers regard as conflicts of interest arising from Trump's ability to use his political position to promote the interests of "Trump"-branded businesses, and ongoing payments by foreign entities to businesses within the Trump business empire as a violation of the Foreign Emoluments Clause.[1][2] In March 2017, China provisionally granted 38 "Trump" trademark applications set to take permanent effect in 90 days, which were noted to come in close proximity to the president's making policy decisions favorable to China.[13]
The Washington Post further noted the creation of ImpeachDonaldTrumpNow.org by Free Speech For People and RootsAction, two liberal advocacy groups.[2] On February 9, Congressman Jerrold Nadler (D, NY) had filed a resolution of inquiry titled "H.Con.Res. 5" to force the Trump administration to turn over documents relating to potential conflicts of interest and to ties with Russia.[14] Some sources identified this as the first step in the process of impeaching Trump.[15][16] Fox News outlined two potential bases for impeachment, one being the Emoluments Clause and the other being complicity with Russian interference in the 2016 United States presidential election.[17] On March 21, it was widely reported that Congresswoman Maxine Waterstweeted "Get ready for impeachment," which Waters explained was in reference to the allegations of collusion with Russian interference in the election.[18]
Yep. In reality, he should have been impeached over emoluments alone 2.5 years ago.
timschochet
Footballguy
With every Presidency there are always a few people in the opposition who love throwing the I word around. Every one in my lifetime. It’s completely meaningless. You’re trying to create some big plot out of nothing.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efforts_to_impeach_Barack_Obama
In October 2010, prior to the elections in which Republicans won control of the House, Jonathan Chait published an article in The New Republic called "Scandal TBD" where he predicted that if Republicans were to win control of the House, and Barack Obama were to win re-election in 2012, the Republicans would try to impeach Obama and use any reason possible as pretext.[5]
Job offer to Pennsylvania Representative Joe SestakEdit
In May 2010, Republican Darrell Issa of California stated that the allegation that the White House had offered Pennsylvania Representative Joe Sestak a job to persuade Sestak to drop out of the Pennsylvania Senate primary election against Arlen Specter "is one that everyone from Arlen Spector to **** Morris has said is in fact a crime, and could be impeachable".[6] With the possibility of becoming chairman of the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform in January 2011, Issa said in October 2010 that the committee would not seek to impeach Obama.[7]
Preventing Obama from "pushing his agenda"Edit
In August 2011, Republican Congressman Michael C. Burgess of Texas agreed with a rally audience member that the impeachment of Barack Obama "needs to happen" in order to prevent Obama from "pushing his agenda". Burgess did not mention any grounds for impeachment.[8][9]
Obama administration immigration policyEdit
In June 2012, Senator Jon Kyl mentioned impeachment when discussing the Obama Administration policy on immigration. He said on the Bill Bennett radio show, "if it’s bad enough and if shenanigans [are] involved in it, then of course impeachment is always a possibility. But I don’t think at this point anybody is talking about that".[10]
Libya interventionEdit
Democratic House Representative Dennis Kucinich called for Obama's impeachment after Obama authorized air strikes against Libya during the Libyan Civil War.[11]
Benghazi attackEdit
In May 2013, Republican Senator James Inhofeof Oklahoma stated that President Obama could be impeached over what he alleged was a White House cover-up after the deadly attack against two United States government facilities in Benghazi, Libya on September 11, 2012.[12]Inhofe said that "of all the great cover-ups in history—the Pentagon papers, Iran-Contra, Watergate, all the rest of them—this ... is going to go down as most egregious cover-up in American history".[12] Republican Congressman Jason Chaffetz of Utah also stated in an interview that impeachment was "within the realm of possibilities" with regard to the September 11, 2012, attack in Benghazi, Libya, later clarifying that "it's not something I'm seeking" and that "I'm not willing to take that off the table. But that's certainly not what we're striving for."[13] Fox News host Jeanine Pirro called for Obama's impeachment over Benghazi.[14]
Impeachment requested by a townhall meeting audience memberEdit
In August 2013, Republican Senator Tom Coburn of Oklahoma responded to a questioner in a town hall meeting, who had asserted that President Obama was failing to carry out his constitutional responsibilities, by saying that "you have to establish the criteria that would qualify for proceedings against the president... and that's called impeachment".[15][16] Coburn added, "I don't have the legal background to know if that rises to 'high crimes and misdemeanors', but I think you're getting perilously close".[15] Coburn did not specify what grounds he felt would support impeachment, but NBC News noted that Coburn "mentioned that he believes Department of Homeland Security officials have told career USCIS employees to 'ignore' background checks for immigrants". Coburn mentioned no evidence that substantiated his belief.[15]
False claims of being born outside the United StatesEdit
At a 2013 town hall meeting with constituents, two years after Obama had released his long-form birth certificate to the public, Congressman Blake Farenthold said that Obama should be impeached due to conspiracy theories relating to Obama's birth certificate. Farenthold said that he thinks that "the House is already out of the barn on this, on the whole birth certificate issue."[17]
IRS targeting conservativesEdit
On August 19, 2013, Republican Congressman Kerry Bentivolio stated that if he could write articles of impeachment, "it would be a dream come true". To help in achieving that goal, he retained experts and historians.[18][19] During the same interview, Bentivolio called the press "the most corrupt thing in Washington," and said that he was looking to tie the White House to the IRS targeting controversy "as evidence of impeachment [sic]".
Debt ceiling crisisEdit
During the debt ceiling crisis of 2013, which was the result of Republicans refusing to raise the debt ceiling unless President Obama agreed to defund the Affordable Care Act, House Representative Louie Gohmert said it would be an "impeachable offense" of the United States as a result of the crisis.[20]
Hearing on "President's Constitutional Duty"Edit
On December 3, 2013, the House Judiciary committee held a hearing on the President that was formally titled "The President's Constitutional Duty to Faithfully Execute the Laws", which has been viewed as an attempt to begin justifying impeachment proceedings. When asked by reporters if this was a hearing about impeachment, the Chairman of the committee responded that it was not, saying "I didn't mention impeachment nor did any of the witnesses in response to my questions at the Judiciary Committee hearing."[21]
Prisoner swapEdit
The convention of the South Dakota Republican Party voted in a 196-176 resolution to call for the impeachment of Obama based on his action to release five detainees from Guantanamo Bay in order to free Bowe Bergdahl from his Taliban captors.[22][23]Congressmember Allen West expressed the view that the prisoner exchange that brought the release of Bowe Bergdahl was grounds for impeachment.[24][20] John Dean, former White House Counsel to Richard Nixon, criticized the movement to impeach Obama as "insanity," arguing that Republican demands for impeachment are grounded in political disagreements rather than actual impeachable offenses. "Partisans promoting and pushing impeachment as a political solution to being out of power seem to forget that what comes around goes around. These people are not conservatives, who by definition seek to protect the system; rather they are radicals who are gaming our constitutional system," he wrote.[25]
Transgender bathroom directiveEdit
In May 2016, the Oklahoma Legislature filed a measure asking the representatives from Oklahoma in the House of Representatives to impeach Obama, the U.S. attorney general, the U.S. secretary of education and any other administration officials involved in the decision to allow transgender students to use the bathrooms corresponding to their gender identity, alleging that these federal officials had exceeded their constitutional authority by issuing a directive to state schools. The same resolution also "condemns the actions of the Civil Rights Division of the United States Department of Justice and the Office for Civil Rights of the United States Department of Education ... as contrary to the values of the citizens of Oklahoma".[26]
Job offer to Pennsylvania Representative Joe SestakEdit
In May 2010, Republican Darrell Issa of California stated that the allegation that the White House had offered Pennsylvania Representative Joe Sestak a job to persuade Sestak to drop out of the Pennsylvania Senate primary election against Arlen Specter "is one that everyone from Arlen Spector to **** Morris has said is in fact a crime, and could be impeachable".[6] With the possibility of becoming chairman of the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform in January 2011, Issa said in October 2010 that the committee would not seek to impeach Obama.[7]
Preventing Obama from "pushing his agenda"Edit
In August 2011, Republican Congressman Michael C. Burgess of Texas agreed with a rally audience member that the impeachment of Barack Obama "needs to happen" in order to prevent Obama from "pushing his agenda". Burgess did not mention any grounds for impeachment.[8][9]
Obama administration immigration policyEdit
In June 2012, Senator Jon Kyl mentioned impeachment when discussing the Obama Administration policy on immigration. He said on the Bill Bennett radio show, "if it’s bad enough and if shenanigans [are] involved in it, then of course impeachment is always a possibility. But I don’t think at this point anybody is talking about that".[10]
Libya interventionEdit
Democratic House Representative Dennis Kucinich called for Obama's impeachment after Obama authorized air strikes against Libya during the Libyan Civil War.[11]
Benghazi attackEdit
In May 2013, Republican Senator James Inhofeof Oklahoma stated that President Obama could be impeached over what he alleged was a White House cover-up after the deadly attack against two United States government facilities in Benghazi, Libya on September 11, 2012.[12]Inhofe said that "of all the great cover-ups in history—the Pentagon papers, Iran-Contra, Watergate, all the rest of them—this ... is going to go down as most egregious cover-up in American history".[12] Republican Congressman Jason Chaffetz of Utah also stated in an interview that impeachment was "within the realm of possibilities" with regard to the September 11, 2012, attack in Benghazi, Libya, later clarifying that "it's not something I'm seeking" and that "I'm not willing to take that off the table. But that's certainly not what we're striving for."[13] Fox News host Jeanine Pirro called for Obama's impeachment over Benghazi.[14]
Impeachment requested by a townhall meeting audience memberEdit
In August 2013, Republican Senator Tom Coburn of Oklahoma responded to a questioner in a town hall meeting, who had asserted that President Obama was failing to carry out his constitutional responsibilities, by saying that "you have to establish the criteria that would qualify for proceedings against the president... and that's called impeachment".[15][16] Coburn added, "I don't have the legal background to know if that rises to 'high crimes and misdemeanors', but I think you're getting perilously close".[15] Coburn did not specify what grounds he felt would support impeachment, but NBC News noted that Coburn "mentioned that he believes Department of Homeland Security officials have told career USCIS employees to 'ignore' background checks for immigrants". Coburn mentioned no evidence that substantiated his belief.[15]
False claims of being born outside the United StatesEdit
At a 2013 town hall meeting with constituents, two years after Obama had released his long-form birth certificate to the public, Congressman Blake Farenthold said that Obama should be impeached due to conspiracy theories relating to Obama's birth certificate. Farenthold said that he thinks that "the House is already out of the barn on this, on the whole birth certificate issue."[17]
IRS targeting conservativesEdit
On August 19, 2013, Republican Congressman Kerry Bentivolio stated that if he could write articles of impeachment, "it would be a dream come true". To help in achieving that goal, he retained experts and historians.[18][19] During the same interview, Bentivolio called the press "the most corrupt thing in Washington," and said that he was looking to tie the White House to the IRS targeting controversy "as evidence of impeachment [sic]".
Debt ceiling crisisEdit
During the debt ceiling crisis of 2013, which was the result of Republicans refusing to raise the debt ceiling unless President Obama agreed to defund the Affordable Care Act, House Representative Louie Gohmert said it would be an "impeachable offense" of the United States as a result of the crisis.[20]
Hearing on "President's Constitutional Duty"Edit
On December 3, 2013, the House Judiciary committee held a hearing on the President that was formally titled "The President's Constitutional Duty to Faithfully Execute the Laws", which has been viewed as an attempt to begin justifying impeachment proceedings. When asked by reporters if this was a hearing about impeachment, the Chairman of the committee responded that it was not, saying "I didn't mention impeachment nor did any of the witnesses in response to my questions at the Judiciary Committee hearing."[21]
Prisoner swapEdit
The convention of the South Dakota Republican Party voted in a 196-176 resolution to call for the impeachment of Obama based on his action to release five detainees from Guantanamo Bay in order to free Bowe Bergdahl from his Taliban captors.[22][23]Congressmember Allen West expressed the view that the prisoner exchange that brought the release of Bowe Bergdahl was grounds for impeachment.[24][20] John Dean, former White House Counsel to Richard Nixon, criticized the movement to impeach Obama as "insanity," arguing that Republican demands for impeachment are grounded in political disagreements rather than actual impeachable offenses. "Partisans promoting and pushing impeachment as a political solution to being out of power seem to forget that what comes around goes around. These people are not conservatives, who by definition seek to protect the system; rather they are radicals who are gaming our constitutional system," he wrote.[25]
Transgender bathroom directiveEdit
In May 2016, the Oklahoma Legislature filed a measure asking the representatives from Oklahoma in the House of Representatives to impeach Obama, the U.S. attorney general, the U.S. secretary of education and any other administration officials involved in the decision to allow transgender students to use the bathrooms corresponding to their gender identity, alleging that these federal officials had exceeded their constitutional authority by issuing a directive to state schools. The same resolution also "condemns the actions of the Civil Rights Division of the United States Department of Justice and the Office for Civil Rights of the United States Department of Education ... as contrary to the values of the citizens of Oklahoma".[26]
The Commish
Footballguy
Nevermind.....
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John Blutarsky
Footballguy
Again, it happened with Obama pretty much from the jump, probably with Bush beforehand as well.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
If it could wait until the solstice, in three days, they could say it happened on the darkest day of the year.
John Blutarsky
Footballguy
Jayrod
Footballguy
I'm not saying it isn't commonplace (in fact I firmly believe it is the norm), but to act like there wasn't a constant and concerted effort to impeach Trump from before his inauguration is disingenuous at best. It isn't some conservative talking point as you were trying to state earlier. It is a fact and as someone who hasn't watched a second of Fox News or listened to a second of conservative radio in many years, I can tell you the cries have been much more consistent and louder than it ever was for Obama. That is simply my opinion, but I've read impeachment being thrown in with Trump more consistently over the last 2 years than I ever have since Clinton was actually impeached. Maybe the closest thing was the cry for prosecuting Bush for war crimes after they never found WMD's.
Don't Noonan
Footballguy
Correction. This has never happened before, a straight partisan impeachment. Utterly embarrassing day for the Dems and America.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
I must say, any letter that can move so effortlessly from Space Force to Salem witch trials is an absolute Tour De Force. If only it had closed with Team America! **** Yeah!, well then it would have had everything.
moleculo
Footballguy
it absolutely is embarrassing... for everyone, not just the democrats. It's embarrassing for republicans because they have shown, once more, that they are not the party of law and order; rather they are a cult of personality, full stop. It's embarrassing for the democrats because they failed to break a single republican away.
I do not support impeachment at this point - we haven't heard from all the key witnesses. I was ok with that, under the assumption we will hear from them in the Senate. That doesn't seem likely at this point, so I would prefer to put a hold on impeachment and compel testimony. But, that won't happen, so I hope for the best.
Zow
Footballguy
I, like I assume a significant portion of that group, thought the odds were relatively high (compared to other presidents) because of the nature and characteristic of Trump: little to no political experience, a history of questionable litigation, an exhibition of crass and rude behavior while campaigning, etc. It's sorta like I would have given decent odds that Josh Gordon would have been re-suspended.
I don't think such a sentiment is unreasonable nor does it mean that, at least some of such group, were "clamoring" for impeachment or whatever.
timschochet
Footballguy
Plenty of evidence for the constant; no evidence for the concerted. And that’s the key distinction.
Zow
Footballguy
Were you surprised to learn that Trump may have attempted to withhold aid from a foreign country until such country investigated his primary political opponent? Do you think you were more or less surprised to hear of Trump doing it than say somebody like McCain, Obama, or either Bush?
timschochet
Footballguy
You missed your true calling. If you could simply abandon all moral principles (and who really needs those anyhow?) you would have made an excellent Minister of Propaganda.
ericttspikes
Footballguy
It’s not embarrassing. It’s how our system works. Congress that we voted in gets the opportunity to check an Imperial presidency that believes it is above the law. They go on record. Voters get to decide. Nothing more American than that.
Zow
Footballguy
parrot
Footballguy
So in that way, it was "perfect". The anger, the invective, the ignorance, the gas lighting, the entitlement, the narcissism, the persecution complex... it's all there. It sums up President Donald Trump about as perfectly as any official government document ever could.
KCitons
Footballguy
How many articles of impeachment were brought against the previous 3? Will Trump be the only POTUS to possibly have two articles??
squistion
Footballguy
andrew kaczynski @KFILE 12m12 minutes ago
Here's video of Trump in 2014 saying what being impeached would do to Obama:
"He would be a mess. He would be thinking about nothing but. It would be a horror show for him. It would be an absolute embarrassment. It would go down on his record permanently."
https://twitter.com/KFILE/status/1207313493952802816
Here's video of Trump in 2014 saying what being impeached would do to Obama:
"He would be a mess. He would be thinking about nothing but. It would be a horror show for him. It would be an absolute embarrassment. It would go down on his record permanently."
https://twitter.com/KFILE/status/1207313493952802816
timschochet
Footballguy
Whatever Republican is speaking right now (listening on the radio) is complaining that there were no first hand witnesses that testified.
Damn he’s right! If only we could get those witnesses.
Damn he’s right! If only we could get those witnesses.
I keep hearing "party line" vote. But, that isn't really true. We know that zero Republicans are going to vote in favor. Can we get a running tally of the Dems that don't vote in favor?
Latest CNN poll, yesterday, has Democratic support for impeachment dropping from 90% to 77%.
The General
Footballguy
Wow. Good find.
This guy has literally commented on twitter or some other way about every scenario that could, will, or possibly ever happen. It’s amazing.
KCitons
Footballguy
Found my own answer.
Clinton - Two (2 others voted down)
Nixon - Three articles (2 others voted down)
Johnson - Eleven articles.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
I think it's great that the people who nominated and elected a frigging birther are suddenly very concerned about protecting the sanctity of the American presidency and whether Democrats are acting in bad faith and "had it out" for Donald Trump from the start. These are obviously rational good faith positions arrived upon after a great deal of self-reflection, and I salute their integrity.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
I am an attorney. I abandoned all moral principles long ago. I'll share a secret of the profession, the abandonment of moral principles is actually done through arthroscopic surgery. See we discovered that morality and decency reside in an area of the brain just behind the hypothalamus. By removing that nodule we are freed from such pedestrian constraints as holds down lesser beings. There is, however, a danger. If the surgeon slips, if he excises extra brain tissue the patient is in danger of having their career choices limited to public defender, judge, or congressman. Anyhow, the surgery is done between the first and second years of law school and occurs before the ceremony in which we sell our souls to the Devil, a secret ceremony but one rich with pomp and circumstance and usually well catered. I had the prime rib, asparagus, and all washed down with a nice mead and a hearty laugh with a minor imp straight out of hell as my dinner companion.
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TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Republicans, including at least one Senator, were calling for the impeachment of Hillary Clinton before the 2016 election.
Widbil83
Footballguy
Direct quote from Jerry Nadler back in 99. Not only is this vote doing to be going to be opposed by 100% of Republicans, the Democrats are going to lose several votes. Oof-
“There must never be an impeachment supported by one of our major political parties & opposed by the other.”
https://twitter.com/cliff_sims/status/1207304733205118984?s=21
“There must never be an impeachment supported by one of our major political parties & opposed by the other.”
https://twitter.com/cliff_sims/status/1207304733205118984?s=21
timschochet
Footballguy
Based on something I read here yesterday, if you truly have sold your soul to the devil there is always a job open for you at the UN.
timschochet
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
From what I’ve heard there will 2- the same 2 who voted against it before. And I think one of them is now a Republican.
timschochet
Footballguy
I’d like to stop right there. But then I’m forced to ask, why DIDNT we stop right there?? Still blows my mind.
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