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***Official Donald J. Trump Impeachment (Whistleblower) Thread***

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11 hours ago, The Z Machine said:

So now we are at the, "Yeah, I did it. So what? There's nothing you can do about it." stage?

Cool. Bring on Ciudad Trujillo.

The caudillo model.

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15 hours ago, Endowed said:

And why did he use his personal attorney and his lackeys instead of properly authorized government investigators?

*remember, Trump denied Rudy was working for him on Biden. 

The Republican Senators still do not full know what they are covering up yet.

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1 minute ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

The Republican Senators still do not full know what they are covering up yet.

Very good point....

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18 minutes ago, timschochet said:

No they didn’t. You really need to stop repeating this because it’s not true.

Both Bush and Obama invoked executive privilege at times but they also cooperated with the House at times. Both Bush and Obama gave the House thousands of documents and allowed witnesses to testify at times. 

Trump on the other hand has not invoked executive privilege: instead he has claimed something called “absolute privilege” and has refused to allow ANYONE to testify and refused to turn over ANY documents. It’s just not the same. It’s clear obstruction. 

Whatever technicality the Dems want to argue make it impeachable—the fix is the same.

Go through the court.

But instead it was rushed.  And now you want the Senate to do it.  

 

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3 minutes ago, jm192 said:

And now you want the Senate to do it.

This is a wholly created argument. There have been something like 19 impeachments in US history (including judges and other officers). Most included new evidence in the Senate. "Trial" means all evidence as well, sometimes grand juries are still gathering evidence after indictment, as are DA's.

Where specifically does this claim that Senates or juries or judges can't hear new evidence at trial come from?

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10 minutes ago, jm192 said:

Whatever technicality the Dems want to argue make it impeachable—the fix is the same.

Go through the court.

But instead it was rushed.  And now you want the Senate to do it.  

:lol:

Two weeks ago the talking point was "WHY ARE THEY DELAYING?!?"

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Touchdowns are 6 points. Except today, in games outdoors in temps under 50 degrees in stadiums over 40 years old, today they shall be 3 points in towns holding games that begin with the letter G. If you wanted different rules you should have had the game in a different location says ref dressed in green and yellow gold, because it has always been thus.

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38 minutes ago, jm192 said:

Obama behaved this way.

Bush behaved this way.

Other Congresses used the courts.  Trump didn’t get the same treatment.

This isn't, strictly speaking, true.  Other presidents have refused to provide certain documents and cited privileges and reasons why they did not do so.  Other presidents generally have not sent a letter saying that Congress has no legitimate basis to request any documents from the administration and the administration will not cooperate in any way.

Had the administration claimed a privilege, it may have been the subject of a court battle.  It did not.  It stated that it would, without exception, obstruct and stated that Congress had no right to conduct an impeachment inquiry.

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36 minutes ago, timschochet said:

No they didn’t. You really need to stop repeating this because it’s not true.

Both Bush and Obama invoked executive privilege at times but they also cooperated with the House at times. Both Bush and Obama gave the House thousands of documents and allowed witnesses to testify at times. 

Trump on the other hand has not invoked executive privilege: instead he has claimed something called “absolute privilege” and has refused to allow ANYONE to testify and refused to turn over ANY documents. It’s just not the same. It’s clear obstruction. 

This is only partially true.  The actual letter sent to Congress cited no privilege at all.

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I think I’d prefer the argument here within the Senate debate to be less “they’re afraid of what they’ll say” and more “why would we not want to find the truth for the American people?”

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14 minutes ago, jm192 said:

Whatever technicality the Dems want to argue make it impeachable—the fix is the same.

Go through the court.

But instead it was rushed.  And now you want the Senate to do it.  

 

Democrats couldn’t go through the court though, Trump was so bad they had to act fast they said.

Then after all that they inexplicably held the articles from the Senate for a month and sank their entire argument.  

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2 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

Had the administration claimed a privilege, it may have been the subject of a court battle.  

Yeah the "Dems should have used the courts!" argument has never made sense to me.  The argument really should be "The House should have arrested Mick Mulvaney, Rick Perry, etc. for failing to comply with a valid subpoena."  But for some reason I never hear anyone criticizing the Dems make that argument.

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Very good messaging by Schiff and Nadler: coverup. Coverup. They kept hammering away at it. No witnesses, no documents, arguments to be delivered late in the evening when nobody is watching- coverup. McConnell and the Republicans in the Senate are complicit. 

The public is on their side on this and they know it. 

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2 minutes ago, Widbil83 said:

Democrats couldn’t go through the court though, Trump was so bad they had to act fast they said.

Then after all that they inexplicably held the articles from the Senate for a month and sank their entire argument.  

On December 18, 2019 the House passed two articles of impeachment.  The Senate was not in full session again until January 6.  When it came back in session, there was definitely a delay of a week in which the House requested rules so that it knew what managers to assign to the impeachment.  None came.  On January 15, the House voted to send the articles to the Senate and set the managers.

Between December 19 and January 5, inclusive, there was nothing that could be done.  The actual uproar you're upset about is a week of time when Pelosi tried to get an understanding of what would happen to choose who would be managing the impeachment, no information was given, and she held the vote to send them along.

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14 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

On December 18, 2019 the House passed two articles of impeachment.  The Senate was not in full session again until January 6.  When it came back in session, there was definitely a delay of a week in which the House requested rules so that it knew what managers to assign to the impeachment.  None came.  On January 15, the House voted to send the articles to the Senate and set the managers.

Between December 19 and January 5, inclusive, there was nothing that could be done.  The actual uproar you're upset about is a week of time when Pelosi tried to get an understanding of what would happen to choose who would be managing the impeachment, no information was given, and she held the vote to send them along.

:yes:  Facts matter. 

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23 minutes ago, Widbil83 said:

Democrats couldn’t go through the court though, Trump was so bad they had to act fast they said.

Then after all that they inexplicably held the articles from the Senate for a month and sank their entire argument.  

The reasons were 1. the length of delay - McGahn was part of the Russia investigation and it's already been 9 month and waiting and it will likely be June / 14 months by the time the USSC finally rules. 2. yeah McConnell should not have appeared on Hannity to announce that he would be coordinating with the White House in their own trial. That caused a delay while new evidence came through and while Schumer and Pelosi tried to persuade some public and GOP opinion their way to get added support. 

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41 minutes ago, Widbil83 said:

Democrats couldn’t go through the court though, Trump was so bad they had to act fast they said.

Then after all that they inexplicably held the articles from the Senate for a month and sank their entire argument.  

Constitution says House has sole power of impeachment.  Saying any of this has to go through the courts is an unconstitutional argument.  Plus, if the courts timeline for rulings on the Mueller investigation is any indicator, they wouldn't have gotten to anything related to impeachment until fall.      

Bill Clinton was impeached on December 19, 1998.  Swearing in for trial was on January 7, 1999.  
Donald Trump was impeached on December December 18, 2019.  Swearing in for trial was on January 16, 2020.  

So the delay in getting the trial started relative to Clinton was 10 days, and a lot of that was the result of contentious non-negotiation of how the trial would work.  

 

Edited by Bruce Dickinson

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49 minutes ago, Apple Jack said:

Technicality. :lmao:

Three years into the Trump administration, I can see how one would think the Constitution is just one big technicality.

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So this trial won't accept evidence from the House investigation until the end of it, has no assurance that witnesses will be brought forward and heard, and will allow for motions to dismiss at any time.  

After suffering zero consequences for railroading Merrick Garland and covering up for Brett Kavanaugh, shouldn't be surprised McConnell would actively participate in a coverup in Trump's impeachment, too. 

I'd like to hear Schumer appeal to the future consequences of these actions, which would give unchecked power to the executive branch between elections and allow an incumbent President to cheat in future elections.  Ignoring evidence and not allowing witnesses is saying the legislative branch is fine with being subservient to the executive branch now and going forward. 

 

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2 hours ago, timschochet said:

McConnell’s rules released overnight make it harder for the witnesses apparently- this is the face of new polling which says that 70% of Americans want witnesses. 

This 70% percentage is a little weird to make sense of.  It includes Trump supporters who believe additional witnesses will totally exonerate Trump and totally damage the Bidens.

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For some reason, I thought we put all this disinformation to bed last week or the week before.  :oldunsure: 

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53 minutes ago, jm192 said:

Whatever technicality the Dems want to argue make it impeachable—the fix is the same.

Go through the court.

But instead it was rushed.  And now you want the Senate to do it.  

 

Pundits and Trump supporters keep hammering that they should go through the courts and sure that would be great but it’s unrealistic. They are still far from a resolution on McGahn testifying and that was months ago.
 

That’s their strategy - make up a fake privilege and force the Democrats to go to the courts to fight something they shouldn’t have to. It mirrors Trump’s bullying of small contractors. Don’t pay them and make them go to court to get paid. It’s a bet on them not doing it because he knows he will lose.

It’s all about running out the clock. If they did go to the courts and spend the time, the excuse would switch to it being to close to the election.

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2 hours ago, timschochet said:

Very good messaging by Schiff and Nadler: coverup. Coverup. They kept hammering away at it. No witnesses, no documents, arguments to be delivered late in the evening when nobody is watching- coverup. McConnell and the Republicans in the Senate are complicit. 

The public is on their side on this and they know it

This is where imo your optimism takes your views off the rails.  A portion of the public view it this way, a portion don’t and unfortunately a much larger portion then either just aren’t plugged into it at all. Also unfortunately I’ve seen nothing in my daily life that has shown any tangible difference.  If anything what I’ve experienced is people have only been pushed more into the positions they were already in, be that left right or disenchanted.   

Edited by dkp993
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1 hour ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

The Republican Senators still do not full know what they are covering up yet.

Would it change their minds if they did?

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Sen. Mazie Hirono on CNN:

"Any time I hear Mitch McConnell say that they're following the Clinton playbook, I just want to say, 'give me a break'."

 

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15 minutes ago, squistion said:

Sen. Mazie Hirono on CNN:

"Any time I hear Mitch McConnell say that they're following the Clinton playbook, I just want to say, 'give me a break'."

 

Pretty sure the Republicans lost that fight, too.

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They should open every session of this joke circus by banging a gong.

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35 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

This is where imo your optimism takes your views off the rails.  A portion of the public view it this way, a portion don’t and unfortunately a much larger portion then either just aren’t plugged into it at all. Also unfortunately I’ve seen nothing in my daily life that has shown any tangible difference.  If anything what I’ve experienced is people have only been push more into the positions they were already in, be that left right or disenchanted.   

51% of Americans want Trump removed based on what we know now and 69% of Americans want witnesses who weren't heard in the House to testify in the impeachment trial.

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42 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

This is where imo your optimism takes your views off the rails.  A portion of the public view it this way, a portion don’t and unfortunately a much larger portion then either just aren’t plugged into it at all. Also unfortunately I’ve seen nothing in my daily life that has shown any tangible difference.  If anything what I’ve experienced is people have only been push more into the positions they were already in, be that left right or disenchanted.   

I can be pessimistic any time. Might as well be positive! 

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1 minute ago, Henry Ford said:

51% of Americans want Trump removed based on what we know now and 69% of Americans want witnesses who weren't heard in the House to testify in the impeachment trial.

Sure. And that 51% is basically what didn’t vote for him. Again to my point the needle hasn’t moved really.  

To be clear I’m not arguing against the impeachment, I’m very much for it as I believe the POTUS is guilty, I’m just saying as a whole it’s not move the American people and the games being played throughout this process most certainly aren’t (as Tim thinks they are).  

This ####ty situation was a lose lose for the Dems. Based in the info available they had to move forward with the impeachment but the outcome of the trial is a close to a lock as one could get.  

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2 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I can be pessimistic any time. Might as well be positive! 

Fair enough.  

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Nice Mitch  McConnell is already lying right from the start..  Yep this is a Cover Up.  And nothing more.. Time to vote out the GOP..  

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11 minutes ago, zoonation said:

They should open every session of this joke circus by banging a gong.

Right. What a joke McConnell is.  It's the democrats fault that the republicans blocked people from testifying. They should have sued.  

 

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8 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

Sure. And that 51% is basically what didn’t vote for him. Again to my point the needle hasn’t moved really.  

To be clear I’m not arguing against the impeachment, I’m very much for it as I believe the POTUS is guilty, I’m just saying as a whole it’s not move the American people and the games being played throughout this process most certainly aren’t (as Tim thinks they are).  

This ####ty situation was a lose lose for the Dems. Based in the info available they had to move forward with the impeachment but the outcome of the trial is a close to a lock as one could get.  

i don't consider Trump not being removed in a sham trial a "lose"

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4 minutes ago, greenroom said:

Nice Mitch  McConnell is already lying right from the start..  Yep this is a Cover Up.  And nothing more.. Time to vote out the GOP..  

Mitch McCoverup.

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Is that Mrs. Landingham behind Schumer's right shoulder?

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9 minutes ago, greenroom said:

Nice Mitch  McConnell is already lying right from the start..  Yep this is a Cover Up.  And nothing more.. Time to vote out the GOP..  

I, and most of the people I know, have voted for more Rs than Ds.  The Rs have lost our vote.  This election cycle AND until every one of these Rs are gone.  Somebody else here said it first:  We will remember the cowards that enabled trump long after trump is gone. 

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So hard not to laugh at this drama queen Schumer. Lie after lie mixed in with the overly dramatic faux outrage. Nobody takes this guy serious. 

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Just now, RBM said:

So hard not to laugh at this drama queen Schumer. Lie after lie mixed in with the overly dramatic faux outrage. Nobody takes this guy serious. 

I could not agree more.  He is symbolic of everything that is wrong with American politics.

 

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Just now, Zerp said:

I, and most of the people I know, have voted for more Rs than Ds.  The Rs have lost our vote.  This election cycle AND until every one of these Rs are gone.  Somebody else here said it first:  We will remember the cowards that enabled trump long after trump is gone. 

After what the corrupt and anti-American Ds have put this country thru the last 3 years they deserve to lose every major election for years and years. 

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4 minutes ago, joffer said:

i don't consider Trump not being removed in a sham trial a "lose"

That’s a fair point, I’m just not sure most people would feel this way.  

I believe most will feel the same way as they feel about the Clinton impeachment, that it’s hollow.  

To be clear I’m not arguing about “right or wrong” I’m merely talking about general public perception. 

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4 minutes ago, Zerp said:

I, and most of the people I know, have voted for more Rs than Ds.  The Rs have lost our vote.  This election cycle AND until every one of these Rs are gone.  Somebody else here said it first:  We will remember the cowards that enabled trump long after trump is gone. 

 

3 minutes ago, TripItUp said:

I could not agree more.  He is symbolic of everything that is wrong with American politics.

 

The juxtaposition of these perceptions within a mere minute of each other watching the exact same thing is absolutely the very definition of the state of American politics today.  

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12 minutes ago, joffer said:

i don't consider Trump not being removed in a sham trial a "lose"

Just like we don’t and will never consider him impeached from an illegitimate and corrupt D led house. 

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18 minutes ago, greenroom said:

Nice Mitch  McConnell is already lying right from the start..  Yep this is a Cover Up.  And nothing more.. Time to vote out the GOP..  

Doesn't want any evidence from the House trial or any new evidence presented. Then he has the nerve to say they have this great task to perform. Shove it you shill. 

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14 minutes ago, Zerp said:
26 minutes ago, greenroom said:

Nice Mitch  McConnell is already lying right from the start..  Yep this is a Cover Up.  And nothing more.. Time to vote out the GOP..  

I, and most of the people I know, have voted for more Rs than Ds.  The Rs have lost our vote.  This election cycle AND until every one of these Rs are gone.  Somebody else here said it first:  We will remember the cowards that enabled trump long after trump is gone. 

I started doing my part in 2018. Have mostly voted R for state/local elections and D for Pres. Not anymore. Straight D until this crop of Rs are out of office.

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7 minutes ago, RBM said:

Just like we don’t and will never consider him impeached from an illegitimate and corrupt D led house. 

Wait, the Dems illegally got help from Russia to get elected?

I thought that was the other guy?

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26 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

 

This ####ty situation was a lose lose for the Dems. 

Obviously I don’t agree. 

Some months ago I made the following prediction in this thread. (I’d love to go back and find it but there’s too many pages to look through:) the impeachment trial would result in a quick acquittal. Republican support for Trump will be strong and unified and after the acquittal they will celebrate. Trump will go around the country claiming exoneration. 

And then the backlash will set in. Trump’s base will be as firm as ever but other Republicans, the ones needed for re-election, will begin to think that they let Trump get away with something. It’s not like they’re suddenly going to vote Democrat; that won’t happen, but more than a few will stay home in November, disgusted by it all. Independents will vote for the Democrats because they will believe this trial was a sham and because Trump exhausts them. Democrats will be royally pissed off and, just as they reacted to Kavanaugh by causing a Democratic Wave in 2018, the exact same thing will happen in 2020- only greater I believe. 

That was my prediction and at this point I have no reason to think it won’t come true. I did add a caveat that if either Bernie or Warren is the Democratic nominee, that could change things back in the Republicans’ favor. But this looks to be less and less likely at this point. So yeah I’m very optimistic. 

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1 hour ago, The Commish said:

For some reason, I thought we put all this disinformation to bed last week or the week before.  :oldunsure: 

A week?  This stuff cycles through every other day

 

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20 minutes ago, RBM said:

After what the corrupt and anti-American Ds have put this country thru the last 3 years they deserve to lose every major election for years and years. 

The Democrats are going to get creamed in November, and honestly I don’t think they will win the White House back until 2032 at minimum. Two terms from Haley is almost a lock at this point. 

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