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***Official Donald J. Trump Impeachment (Whistleblower) Thread*** (12 Viewers)

Some pretty smart pollsters are urging us not to make too much out of Dems' electoral successes in '18, citing the 2010 results and subsequent Obama re-election as reasons. Trump is still the favorite -- a pretty amazing thing in light of his general awfulness -- though not by enough to justify the overconfidence displayed by many of his supporters. I think that qualifies as what JB labels "chest thumping." "The Patriots are the greatest" sort of thing.

 
I've been thinking about this. Mayor Pete seems like the obvious choice to me if the goal is to beat Trump. He's pretty clean-cut, male, white, speaks more articulately than Trump with comparable confidence to Trump, and is much better looking (see e.g. Kennedy v. Nixon debates). But, of course, he's nowehere near the top. 

And I recognize that I say this as the guy who thought that Kasich was the clear choice for Republicans in 2016. 
Klobuchar would be a good pick too.  It's weird to me that a popular moderate from a purple-ish state never got any traction.  

 
If my favorite sports team won the championship and I find out later that they cheated to get there it would depress me, not bring me joy.   So I just can't relate to the people high-fiving each other in the Trump HQ thread. 

Patriots fans fall into this category. 

Also Astros and Red Sox fans. 
My link

 
Dear Sen.Lamar Alexander,

   You say you don't need any witnesses as the House managers proved their case that what the president did was wrong but you say that is not impeachable, you do realize that many of your Republican colleagues are still not convinced that President Trump committed this quid pro quo as you do. Don't you think that hearing from Bolton might help persuade them or is that what you are trying to prevent?

 
I've been thinking about this. Mayor Pete seems like the obvious choice to me if the goal is to beat Trump. He's pretty clean-cut, male, white, speaks more articulately than Trump with comparable confidence to Trump, and is much better looking (see e.g. Kennedy v. Nixon debates). But, of course, he's nowehere near the top. 

And I recognize that I say this as the guy who thought that Kasich was the clear choice for Republicans in 2016. 
Buttigieg is a terrific candidate.  For all of the reasons you stated.  If he could somehow win the nomination and get someone like Kamala Harris or Stacy Abrams as his running mate, they would destroy Trump.  His issue is the black vote.  Low black voter turnout in the 2016 election is one of the reasons we have a president Trump. I think it might be beneficial for him to announce a running mate early on to help him in the primaries. Although it would be tough for him to get a Harris/Abrams type to agree that early. 

 
It's like 2016 didn't happen.
In 2016, Trump had the advantage of having no voting record. And no political experience. That enabled him to make promises that sounded awesome to certain groups of people.  Muslim ban! Mexico will pay for wall! Eliminate Obamacare and replace with something better!  Restore 50.000 lost coal jobs!    All real easy to promise gullible voters.  Well, now he has four years of failing on most of his promises. Not going to be so easy to fool anyone. Sure, the ones who voted for him in 2016 will vote for him again. But he's going to need a lot more votes than that to win in 2020. Bush's WMD lie and the Great Recession brought voters out in droves in 2008.  Trump's corruption, racism, overall childish behavior, and causing so much hate and divide will do the same in 2020.

 
please tell me - what argument should have been made?  After seeing blatant corruption and seeing republicans called out for it, you want to support them more.  I don't get it.  What should the democrats have done to convince you that wrong, unethical behavior should not be supported?
Censure, not impeachment.

 
The worst part of this whole affair is not Trump, nor his actions. The country can recover from him.

The worst part is that partisanship has become institutionalized. And that began long before Trump.

 
Klobuchar would be a good pick too.  It's weird to me that a popular moderate from a purple-ish state never got any traction.  
She also makes sense. I think my analysis still suffers a bit from the recency bias of seeing just how terrible Hillary did with female voters in 2016. I see Klobuchar as a very sensible candidate but maybe not as sharp of a personality as Pete. I mean I just picture a Pete v. Trump debate as a bloodbath in terms of both substance and style and I genuinely think a viewer's opinion on Trump could be swayed if he's contrasted with a sensible, well-spoken white male. 

 
Because the Democrats have to nominate an actual candidate to run against Trump, and the people most likely be nominated are terrible.  It's like our political parties completely lost the ability to select reasonable candidates.
I don't think it's the parties; it is the voters. There are plenty of reasonable candidates that entered the race, just like there were on the Republican side in 2016.

 
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In 2016, Trump had the advantage of having no voting record. And no political experience. That enabled him to make promises that sounded awesome to certain groups of people.  Muslim ban! Mexico will pay for wall! Eliminate Obamacare and replace with something better!  Restore 50.000 lost coal jobs!    All real easy to promise gullible voters.  Well, now he has four years of failing on most of his promises. Not going to be so easy to fool anyone. Sure, the ones who voted for him in 2016 will vote for him again. But he's going to need a lot more votes than that to win in 2020. Bush's WMD lie and the Great Recession brought voters out in droves in 2008.  Trump's corruption, racism, overall childish behavior, and causing so much hate and divide will do the same in 2020.
And yet according to betting markets, Trump is the presumptive favorite.  Higher now than before impeachment hearings began.

 
As I've been stating for several years now the only hope we have to get Trump out of office is a normal, overdue, correction in the stock market.  

 
And yet according to betting markets, Trump is the presumptive favorite.  Higher now than before impeachment hearings began.
I don't think that has anything to do with whether Trump has failed or succeeded on his policies. I think it has everything to do with the likelihood that the Democratic nominee will be Warren or Biden. 

 
The term "terrible" is an objective one. Compared to Obama or even Bush, the Democratic candidates may seem terrible. But they won't be running against that type of person. They will be running against Donald Trump.  Not only the worst president in US history, but a truly horrible person. So these terrible candidates would all be 100x better than than what we have. 
Much less that many people in my age group see this group of candidates (namely Bernie and Warren) as significantly better than we've gotten in many years.

 
The worst part of this whole affair is not Trump, nor his actions. The country can recover from him.

The worst part is that partisanship has become institutionalized. And that began long before Trump.
But has never been this bad...where we have a senator admitting the man did these awful things...but so what...his chief of staff saying the same things.

And many supporters basically the same...doesn't matter that he did it...so what.  The stock market is good...so what does it matter what POTUS does or says about anything else.

 
Could happen. And if it does I’ll be tremendously disappointed, and then move on. 

But there’s no reason I can see to be pessimistic beforehand. Trump barely won in 2016 and his support has not increased. Democrats are energized and highly motivated. Independents are going to be very angered by this coverup and other events. All the numbers, all the facts are on our side. That doesn’t guarantee a thing of course, but why not be positive? 
What if independents decide that a desire to repudiate Republicans does not logically demand an embrace of Democrats.  What if they instead vote third party?

 
I don't think that has anything to do with whether Trump has failed or succeeded on his policies. I think it has everything to do with the likelihood that the Democratic nominee will be Warren or Biden. 
According to most recent monthly Gallup poll, highest satisfaction of direction this country is going since July 7, 2005.  First time since then its over 40%.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/1669/general-mood-country.aspx

 
Klobuchar would be a good pick too.  It's weird to me that a popular moderate from a purple-ish state never got any traction.  
Well, considering she's pretty disliked by a large chunk of her local party members, it's not very weird to me. I've never liked her, but she's better than a Republican so I've voted for her.

 
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Why?  What does Censure do?  Its toothless.

I think impeachment even without removal is a stronger message...and a stronger message to campaign on now with the GOP refusing witnesses.
I understand, and you may be right.  I'm not as confident as you are.  That's for sure.

 
Dershowitz just said if democrats would have impeached Trump for bribery the results of this would have been very, very, different. 

Neat country. 
He is a whore trying to rehab his image.  He wants to pretend that his arguments were nuanced and that people appreciated those nuances.  That he both knows justice, truth, and legal representation.  He wants to place the blame at the feet of the House prosecutors rather than admit what he knew all along, he was arguing to a fixed jury and his arguments were horrible, constitutionally disgraceful.  

 
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You don't want to hear this, but what they should have done is removed Bill Clinton from office.  Now the GOP is just recycling many of the same positions the Democrats took two decades ago and the downward spiral continues.  Stop trying to blame and shame the other side.  Take some shared responsibility for where we are today, but make the case that we must draw the line in the sand or this state of corruption will only get worse.  
of course I agree with removing Clinton.  Please don't confuse me for a traditional democrat or liberal. I remember voting for GWB over Gore in 2000 (in Palm Beach County on a butterfly ballot, BTW) because I felt Bush would restore honor and dignity to the White House and a Gore presidency would validate presidents lying under oath.

Perhaps you were speaking to the democrat party, in which case I would agree. 

But, here we are in 2020.  We can't go back and re-do 1999.  Admitting that Clinton should have been impeached isn't really going to do anything today.  The House did draw a line in the sand - the Senate is in the process of burying it and I fear there is no going back.

 
Any Dem voter on this board who thinks this election is in the bag is making a big error in judgment, imo. We've had four years of proof that Donald J. Trump can't be awful enough that significant numbers of voters will turn against him. This board has long railed against the judgmental capability of the average voter -- why do we suddenly think they're going to improve this November?

Signed

Anyone But Donald Voter

 
Maybe, maybe not.  We'll never know, but I suspect they would have.  It was simply in response to the question of "What should Dems have done?"  That's something they could have done.
Dems do what now? Is this the next chapter in "it's all the Democrats' fault?" The Republicans control the majority in the Senate and its corresponding committees. If they want to censure the President they can do it and the Democrats have absolutely no control over it.

 
Dems do what now? Is this the next chapter in "it's all the Democrats' fault?" The Republicans control the majority in the Senate and its corresponding committees. If they want to censure the President they can do it and the Democrats have absolutely no control over it.
They could have had witnesses, found him guilty, and censured him, right?

 
Any Dem voter on this board who thinks this election is in the bag is making a big error in judgment, imo. We've had four years of proof that Donald J. Trump can't be awful enough that significant numbers of voters will turn against him. This board has long railed against the judgmental capability of the average voter -- why do we suddenly think they're going to improve this November?

Signed

Anyone But Donald Voter
nothing is in the bag.  of course not.  people have to be motivated to turn out and vote.  but 2016 was a bit flukey.  everything fell into place for Trump.  for 80K votes in 3 states to swing the EC that much is unusual.  if his approval is down even 2% in those states that's enough, and i think it is.  and yes, obviously it depends on the Dem nominee.

 
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Dems do what now? Is this the next chapter in "it's all the Democrats' fault?" The Republicans control the majority in the Senate and its corresponding committees. If they want to censure the President they can do it and the Democrats have absolutely no control over it.
Calm down GB, I didn't lay blame for anything at the Dems feet.  A question was asked and I answered.  

 
Any Dem voter on this board who thinks this election is in the bag is making a big error in judgment, imo. We've had four years of proof that Donald J. Trump can't be awful enough that significant numbers of voters will turn against him. This board has long railed against the judgmental capability of the average voter -- why do we suddenly think they're going to improve this November?

Signed

Anyone But Donald Voter
Personally, I do not think the Dems have it in the bag. I think it's probably going to be pretty tough to beat him. He has the benefit of a good economy (he can thank Obama) plus foreign countries helping him again. Possibly even corrupting the voting system.  But when you see the level of corruption going through the entire Republican party, enabling him to be above the law and rule like a dictator, I simply have to believe there's a price for that. I guess I'm a naive optimist, but I have to go through life believing that evil gets punished and goodness wins out in the end or I would jump off a bridge. 

 
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