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***Official Donald J. Trump Impeachment (Whistleblower) Thread***

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3 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

Which part is the good fight?

Do you care to try and say the identity of the wb is relevant and defend that position at all?

I don't think it's relevant.  I'm not sure the GOP thinks it's relevant.  I think they want to tell American that it's a biased sham.  You asked why why why they're after it--that's why.

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40 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

Of course it is living in that it can be change by ammendment.  Where the contention is, changing what the constitution means by reinterpretation of what was originally intended.  

Like I said.

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33 minutes ago, jm192 said:

I’m just telling you guys that’s why the GOP is so hard after it.  They’re explaining the bias in the process.

 

Some of you will never see an ounce of bias from the Dems.  A lot of Americans absolutely will.

If you believe this impeachment is strictly the result of bias, then you must also accept that this administrations own ICIG is biased. Correct?

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@jm192 - my bad, I thought you were JonMx. Too wound up on this stuff, so I'll take a break. You ought to delete your response to me, I don't think folks should be putting their names on the board here. Have a good one, thanks. - SID

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28 minutes ago, jm192 said:

It’s illogical if you’re telling me you think the President will be removed.

It’s completely logical to paint this as a biased sham in preparation for November. 

 

 

I just want to thank you for this post. For the first time, this post actually helped me understand what the GOP argument even was for exposing the identity of the whistleblower. 

I still think its a completely bogus, ridiculous argument that nobody (including the GOP) believes. But at least now I understand the argument they are making.

Edited by whoknew

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12 minutes ago, jm192 said:

I don’t care about the Identity of the Whistle blower.  I don’t think it’s relevant.  But the constant sense of “THE GOP NEEDS TO SHUT UP AND ONLY TALK ABOUT WHAT WE SAY THEY CAN” is beyond absurd.  

You can’t bring charges and then also control the defense.  Schiff keeps on talking about “that’s not a trial,” but to say “here’s how you’re allowed to defend yourself” isn’t either.

Then it shouldn't be admitted at trial.  Period.  Relevance is a very low bar.  And this doesn't meet it.  If you can't even meet relevance, your "evidence" isn't evidence, it is simply intended to create prejudice, confusion, and a waste of time.

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1 minute ago, whoknew said:

I just want to thank you for this post. For the first time, this post actually helped me understand what the GOP argument even was for exposing the identity of the whistleblower. 

I still think its a completely bogus, ridiculous argument that nobody (including the GOP) believes - but at least now I understand they argument they are making.

Yeah, it's a shoehorned "both sides" argument.  "Even if the President was trying to cast a cloud over Biden's candidacy, that's exactly what you're doing!"

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Time to repeal the 17th Amendment, eliminate the primary system, reimpose party discipline and move to a uniform non-partisan method for drawing congressional districts.

Direct self-government has failed.

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2 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

Then it shouldn't be admitted at trial.  Period.  Relevance is a very low bar.  And this doesn't meet it.  If you can't even meet relevance, your "evidence" isn't evidence, it is simply intended to create prejudice, confusion, and a waste of time.

Henry

I'm not Asking for the name.  I'm explaining WHY the GOP keeps going after it.  That's the only point. 

 

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Just now, Dinsy Ejotuz said:

Time to repeal the 17th Amendment, eliminate the primary system, reimpose party discipline and move to a uniform non-partisan method for drawing congressional districts.

Direct self-government has failed.

Did you see who the Arizona governor appointed to the Senate?  You sure you want to repeal the 17th?

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Just now, Henry Ford said:

Did you see who the Arizona governor appointed to the Senate?  You sure you want to repeal the 17th?

Counterpoint: have you seen the full Republican caucus?

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24 minutes ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

I remember when this Board had conservatives, not simply republicans.  I myself am quite conservative, so conservative that on many issues I am aligned with liberals, though potentially for other reasoning than they use.  I am so conservative that I do not place party over principle and I do not confuse any one office holder with party.

+1,000   Nailed it.

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Just now, jm192 said:

Henry

I'm not Asking for the name.  I'm explaining WHY the GOP keeps going after it.  That's the only point. 

 

And I'm explaining why a competent judge will continue to say "no".  And why if optics are bad for that, then the people creating those optics in their own heads are ignorant of how things work.  That's the only point.

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22 minutes ago, Jackstraw said:

I don't think he fools them. They're willing accomplices in my mind. They enable him. They encourage him.  They love him for it. 

This. I bet Trump supporters completely understand what's going on. They're not stupid; they have a specific agenda. They approve because it will help prevent the socialist hordes from beating them in November and shoving health care and universal voting rights down the country's throat.

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26 minutes ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

I remember when this Board had conservatives, not simply republicans.  I myself am quite conservative, so conservative that on many issues I am aligned with liberals, though potentially for other reasoning than they use.  I am so conservative that I do not place party over principle and I do not confuse any one office holder with party.

This board still has conservatives, you guys just generally don't identify as Republican anymore.  

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FWIW, there are cases where relevance of a document or witness is a close call. In this proceeding, Hunter Biden and the whistleblower are not close calls. 

This is a trial about Donald Trump’s actions. Donald Trump’s motives are relevant. So the information HE possessed about the Bidens and Crowdstrike is relevant. But not the actual underlying facts that he may not have been privy to. The Senate is free to investigate those matters in another proceeding. 

And yeah, I dislike Trump. But I also do this for a living.   In the final analysis, the Senate can adopt the procedures they want. But the Senators need to live with their decisions. And lots of Republican Senators know they’re making specious legal arguments. Ted Cruz was solicitor general of Texas. He knows better. 

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11 minutes ago, jm192 said:

I don't think it's relevant.  I'm not sure the GOP thinks it's relevant.  I think they want to tell American that it's a biased sham.  You asked why why why they're after it--that's why.

I didn’t ask why actually.  I know why...I wonder why anyone would buy that bs from them?

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1 minute ago, Ramsay Hunt Experience said:

FWIW, there are cases where relevance of a document or witness is a close call. In this proceeding, Hunter Biden and the whistleblower are not close calls. 

This is a trial about Donald Trump’s actions. Donald Trump’s motives are relevant. So the information HE possessed about the Bidens and Crowdstrike is relevant. But not the actual underlying facts that he may not have been privy to. The Senate is free to investigate those matters in another proceeding. 

And yeah, I dislike Trump. But I also do this for a living.   In the final analysis, the Senate can adopt the procedures they want. But the Senators need to live with their decisions. And lots of Republican Senators know they’re making specious legal arguments. Ted Cruz was solicitor general of Texas. He knows better. 

Lindsey Graham was a military prosecutor.

In fact, these Republican members of the Senate were all lawyers:

Lamar Alexander (TN)
Dan Sullivan (AK)
Roger Wicker (MS)
Rick Scott (FL)
John Kennedy (LA)
Tom Cotton (AR)
Mitch McConnell (KY)
Mike Lee (UT)
Cory Gardner (CO)
Lindsey Graham (SC)
Richard Shelby (AL)
Lisa Murkowski (AK)
Marco Rubio (FL)
Mike Crapo (ID)
Josh Hawley (MO)
Rob Portman (OH)
John Cornyn (TX)
Ted Cruz (TX)
Jerry Moran (KS)

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Side note: please tell me if I got any abbreviations wrong, I'm currently quite pleased with myself for remembering how to abbreviate states.

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8 minutes ago, jm192 said:

Henry

I'm not Asking for the name.  I'm explaining WHY the GOP keeps going after it.  That's the only point. 

 

The GOP is desperate.All facts are against them and they're all involved in a huge cover-up now that they know what Bolton has to say.  They are trying to out the whistleblower so that they can make it be all about him. If they can show he voted for Hillary in 2016 or didn't watch season 4 of the Apprentice, they think that the mountain of evidence showing Trump's greasy mob shakedown attempt of Ukraine will disappear.  You are witnessing absolute desperation. They have no defense at this point.

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42 minutes ago, jm192 said:

I guess so were the Dems.  They could have had them in the courts, but they wouldn’t wait because the American people might elect Trump again.

What courts?

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20 minutes ago, roadkill1292 said:

This. I bet Trump supporters completely understand what's going on. They're not stupid; they have a specific agenda. They approve because it will help prevent the socialist hordes from beating them in November and shoving health care and universal voting rights down the country's throat.

This2.  No one is fooled.  It's all about rationalizing.  Yes, Trump did this thing. And yes, normally it would be bad, BUT it's Biden and clearly something hinky was going on there so it's okay.  And yes, normally you would prefer that the President utilize the channels and agencies already in place for this sort of thing but he's so under attack he HAS to use his personal lawyer and a couple of shadowy characters to carry out his orders. And yes, normally we wouldn't approve of attacking decorated vets and long-time civil servants without a hint of controversy in their history, but it's possible they might be lying for some unknown reason, so we have to give them a pass here. And yes, normally we would want to protect whistle-blowers, but in this case we need to know who it is and rake them over the coals in case they have contrary allegiances that need to be exposed. And yes, normally it would be expected that we would want to hear from the ex-cabinet-member who claims to be in possession of relevant facts on the case but since the House didn't already take him to court to try and compel him blah, blah, blah...

It must be exhausting to try and keep up with whatever strain of BS they're spewing on any given day.  

Edited by parrot

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7 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

Side note: please tell me if I got any abbreviations wrong, I'm currently quite pleased with myself for remembering how to abbreviate states.

Relevant

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We all get the political calculus. Trump will be acquitted. Why not use the time to dirty up Joe Biden (and Democrats generally). It’s distasteful, but certainly not unexpected. And as someone who will be tempted to walk into the sea like Kate Chopin heroine if the Democrats run Uncle Joe against Trump, I’m not terribly offended. 

Just don’t start citing a bunch of legal non sequiturs like due process. 

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6 minutes ago, JuniorNB said:

The GOP is desperate.All facts are against them and they're all involved in a huge cover-up now that they know what Bolton has to say.  They are trying to out the whistleblower so that they can make it be all about him. If they can show he voted for Hillary in 2016 or didn't watch season 4 of the Apprentice, they think that the mountain of evidence showing Trump's greasy mob shakedown attempt of Ukraine will disappear.  You are witnessing absolute desperation. They have no defense at this point.

While Joe Biden will appear on the Grassy Knoll right behind Ted Cruz's father in future GOP narratives, especially if he continues to poll well against Donald, he's kinda fair game for Trump nefariousness. Endangering the whistleblower, however, for the sake of an irrelevant smear job should raise the hackles of all of us. 

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20 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

Side note: please tell me if I got any abbreviations wrong, I'm currently quite pleased with myself for remembering how to abbreviate states.

I miss the 4 letter abbreviations

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15 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

Love that bit.

I also find unusual pride in remembering the state abbreviations. I don't know why I do, but I do. 

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What’s particularly galling about the attack on the WB is that he didn’t do what a partisan would do, which is just leak to the press. 
 

Joe Biden is a big boy. He knows this game. And he knows that extends to his family, for better or worse. But I think it’s really gross how career civil servants have been demonized in all this. They didn’t sign up for this. 

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This has been a partisan political cage match from the start. Barring some miracle the Democrats are going to lose. Take the pain and move on.

The pain would have been less had you not chosen not to take it to the GOP-controlled Senate. But you did. And now you're even more emotionally invested...giving a standing ovation to Schiff every step of the way. So now the inevitable defeat hurts now more than ever.

Take a break. Get your focus back. And then nominate the right candidate to beat Trump in November (hint: not Sanders/Warren).

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1 minute ago, PhantomJB said:

This has been a partisan political cage match from the start. Barring some miracle the Democrats are going to lose. Take the pain and move on.

The pain would have been less had you not chosen not to take it to the GOP-controlled Senate. But you did. And now you're even more emotionally invested...giving a standing ovation to Schiff every step of the way. So now the inevitable defeat hurts now more than ever.

Take a break. Get your focus back. And then nominate the right candidate to beat Trump in November (hint: not Sanders/Warren).

It achieved the desired goal.  Showed the GOP to be morally bankrupt, corrupt, and in the pocket of a sociopath.  Now they have to run on it.  I’m satisfied.

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1 hour ago, Jackstraw said:

I don't think he fools them. They're willing accomplices in my mind. They enable him. They encourage him.  They love him for it. 

They think that they are "made" and will share in the spoils but in reality are being used.  In gangster movies we all know what happens to these characters. 

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4 minutes ago, joffer said:

It achieved the desired goal.  Showed the GOP to be morally bankrupt, corrupt, and in the pocket of a sociopath.  Now they have to run on it.  I’m satisfied.

I didn't like the comment because I'm happy with the result, more that I agree with you that it achieved its desired goal tactically. I know a lot of people disgusted with the Republicans right now.

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3 minutes ago, joffer said:

It achieved the desired goal.  Showed the GOP to be morally bankrupt, corrupt, and in the pocket of a sociopath.  Now they have to run on it.  I’m satisfied.

I would agree that even though the ball wasn't put in the end zone some amount of political yardage was gained by the Democrats. But November is still a long way away. Not sure how much staying power it has.

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38 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

Side note: please tell me if I got any abbreviations wrong, I'm currently quite pleased with myself for remembering how to abbreviate states.

Meh, only two of the M states, and easy ones at that. 

Edited by Snorkelson
I take it back, none of the M states are easy

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7 minutes ago, PhantomJB said:

I would agree that even though the ball wasn't put in the end zone some amount of political yardage was gained by the Democrats. But November is still a long way away. Not sure how much staying power it has.

The videos and the quotes last forever. Let's see how many of them pop around August/September/October.

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1 hour ago, jm192 said:

It’s illogical if you’re telling me you think the President will be removed.

It’s completely logical to paint this as a biased sham in preparation for November. 

Sure there are times when lying is the only logical option.   

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25 minutes ago, PhantomJB said:

This has been a partisan political cage match from the start. Barring some miracle the Democrats are going to lose. Take the pain and move on.

The pain would have been less had you not chosen not to take it to the GOP-controlled Senate. But you did. And now you're even more emotionally invested...giving a standing ovation to Schiff every step of the way. So now the inevitable defeat hurts now more than ever.

Take a break. Get your focus back. And then nominate the right candidate to beat Trump in November (hint: not Sanders/Warren).

Umm...I think the GOP is the one who will feel the longer term pain from this.

Democrats and posters here went in knowing the GOP would not remove him...but we still should hear more of what he did.

The focus is fine...whoever wins the Dem nomination will be running against and impeached man...and those running against GOP senators will be running against people that voted against hearing witnesses in a trial.

Also...not sure why the DNC or democrat voters should take advice of who to nominate from those who support Trump.  its a very odd thing.

I think Sanders or Warren can beat him just as several others can.  

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15 minutes ago, PhantomJB said:

I would agree that even though the ball wasn't put in the end zone some amount of political yardage was gained by the Democrats. But November is still a long way away. Not sure how much staying power it has.

I'm curious to see what the House will do if the McGahn court case resolves favorably for forcing testimony.

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5 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

Umm...I think the GOP is the one who will feel the longer term pain from this.

Democrats and posters here went in knowing the GOP would not remove him...but we still should hear more of what he did.

GOP and Trump will be able to claim victory in terms of outcome. To be weighed against the "we did the right thing" process arguments.

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7 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

Also...not sure why the DNC or democrat voters should take advice of who to nominate from those who support Trump.  its a very odd thing.

??

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Yeah, Dems are a mess at getting organized and solidified around a single candidate not named Barack Obama, but this "impeachment hurts the Democrats most" meme is like Karl Rove's assertions during the 2012 election on Fox (as adroitly stated by Megyn Kelly): numbers that Republicans use to make themselves feel better.

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There seems to be some debate this morning about whether or not Roberts can decide a tie vote. Most people think no; he would have to be asked first by the Majority Leader- and that’s never going to happen. So if Collins, Romney and Murkowski were to vote for witnesses and no other Republicans, that would make it 50-50 and a fail. 

However I have heard at least two different attorneys say that if this happens Roberts can decide to cast a vote; he doesn’t need permission to do so. But this is the minority view and even if it was correct, Roberts would have to make this decision of his own initiative- and given his demeanor there’s no reason to believe he would- but who knows? 

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Just now, PhantomJB said:

GOP and Trump will be able to claim victory in terms of outcome. To be weighed against the "we did the right thing" process arguments.

Donald claims victory whenever he gets away with another misdeed. The tactic mostly only works on those people who are likely to attend one of his rallies.

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1 hour ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

I remember when this Board had conservatives, not simply republicans.  I myself am quite conservative, so conservative that on many issues I am aligned with liberals, though potentially for other reasoning than they use.  I am so conservative that I do not place party over principle and I do not confuse any one office holder with party.

So you admit you're a lib, huh?

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With regard to my last post a Democratic senator (not sure who) was asked if the Democrats would publicly urge Roberts to cast a vote in the event of a tie vote. He replied “That’s not our role.” 

This made me wonder, why not? But then it occurred to me that Democrats are not that displeased by a vote against witnesses? 

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9 minutes ago, PhantomJB said:

GOP and Trump will be able to claim victory in terms of outcome. To be weighed against the "we did the right thing" process arguments.

Wow. You might want to take a look at polling. 

This result will be an outrage and a terrible defeat for the rule of law. It’s a shameful moment in our nation. But politically speaking, this is NOT a defeat for Democrats. Quite the opposite: it’s a huge win. This stain is going to be with the GOP for a long time, perhaps forever. Certainly Trump will never escape it; by the time this weekend is over he becomes OJ Simpson. 

Edited by timschochet

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13 minutes ago, PhantomJB said:

GOP and Trump will be able to claim victory in terms of outcome. To be weighed against the "we did the right thing" process arguments.

The GOP is about to vote to silence first hand witnesses. Despite 75% of Americans wanting to hear from witnesses. There's not a fancy mathematician on the planet who can make that be a positive for Republicans. 

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