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***Official Donald J. Trump Impeachment (Whistleblower) Thread*** (2 Viewers)

Jackstraw said:
Pretty tall order when North and South Dakota got California doubled up. Tyranny of the minority. 
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No, the populations are represented by the house, the states by the senate.  Just as big people get no more of a vote, big states are coequal, in the senate, with regular sized and small states.  The outsized populations of big states has already had their say in the house.

I submit that if we had direct democracy very soon the urban centers would separate from the rest of the country, we would be fractured.  The set up is genius in that it is what keeps us the states united, or at least it has.  We are so divided now who knows if we can ever truly unite.

 
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SHIZNITTTT said:
The 49 Senators who voted to call witnesses represent 170 million Americans

The 51 Senators who blocked witnesses represent 151 million Americans

In the US Senate the majority doesn’t rule
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And thank god it doesn't.  I can't since I don't believe in god.  Who wants mob rule?  The mob is stupid, angry, faceless, unaccountable and often uneducated. Granted there are severe downsides, such as now, but I firmly believe the upside to be greater.    The population has its say through the house.  The states have theirs through the senate.  Absent coequal say of each state we would not have a nation of states.  We would fracture apart.  Perhaps We could be unified by a war of conquest, but we would never voluntarily come together absent that coequal representative chamber.

 
OrtonToOlsen said:
Here is what is truly amazing...

The senate majority basically just crapped all over the basic idea of democracy for Donald Trump.

Not Reagan or GHWB or even W...but Donald Freaking Trump.

Let that one marinate.
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I would say that what they crapped all over was the rule of law, not democracy, since they are designed to be an antidemocratic republican (small "r" republican) chamber of the house.  They took a democratic vote representative of the states, not the population.  

 
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mr roboto said:
Well I can’t really say I’m shocked. But at least everyone now sees just how party over country the current GOP is. 
 

This will hurt them in November. Or maybe it won’t. But if it doesn’t then we’ve entered a very new and frightening phase of our national political conscience. I don’t k ow what this country will look like in 20 years if this kind of pure political corruption and cover up doesn’t move the voting public. 
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I agree that this is a stark and clear example, undeniable evidence that the GOP is shamefully Party over principle, law, and republic.  I suspect the same is true of the Democrats, but we do not have the glaring evidence of such at this time in the public record.  We are split on partisan lines, a chasm so broad that it seems it cannot be bridged by principle or rationality or oaths of duty.  The democrats hold the moral high ground here not by having attained it, but by having it vacated by the republicans.  It will be interesting to see if they can maintain it or whether they will jump down off of it into the mud pit below.  My bet is mud pit time, but we shall see.

 
SHIZNITTTT said:
The 49 Senators who voted to call witnesses represent 170 million Americans

The 51 Senators who blocked witnesses represent 151 million Americans

In the US Senate the majority doesn’t rule
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The LITERAL point of the Senate was to be a body that gave each state equal representation. 

 
The other senate concept is to break up states like california and texas into smaller states  If Cali broke up into 5 states, they would likely have and 8-2 D to R balance.Texas would be 3 states with a 4-2 R balance.

 
dkp993 said:
Sorry if it’s been posted already but this is just unreal.  WTF!

https://mobile.twitter.com/jaketapper/status/1223303649289494533

Rubio: "Just because actions meet a standard of impeachment does not mean it is in the best interest of the country to remove a President from office."
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Intellectually that may occasionally be true, but I do not believe so in this particular case.  That it might be true in a time of war, close to an election, for a relatively minor misdemeanor does not make it true so many months out from an election, in a time of peace, for such a blatant abuse of power representing an attack on our electoral process itself.

 
dkp993 said:
Sorry if it’s been posted already but this is just unreal.  WTF!

https://mobile.twitter.com/jaketapper/status/1223303649289494533

Rubio: "Just because actions meet a standard of impeachment does not mean it is in the best interest of the country to remove a President from office."
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I just think it's interesting that three Republicans have now said that Trump was guilty. Even Romney and Collins have not said that, yet Rubio, Murkowski and Alexander felt the need to, but doing so in the context of denying witnesses. It's almost as if they are making the point that Bolton could prove Trump's guilt.

 
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lazyike said:
While many have talked about abolishing the electoral college but to see a Wyoming with a population of 577,000, North Dakota and South Dakota under 1 million as well to have 2 Senators each while a California which has 39 million also have 2 Senators doesn’t seem right. I understand the need to have equal representation based on land mass up to a point but I could support seeing states with a population under 1 million only getting 1 Senator. Even then there would be no where near equal Senate representation based on population but would seem somewhat more logical.
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Would those states from who you were going to take away that representation be allowed to opt out of the union since this was a precondition of them joining?   Who knows, they may still agree due to other enticements or inducements of the strength in unity, but they may not.

 
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Gatorman said:
The other senate concept is to break up states like california and texas into smaller states  If Cali broke up into 5 states, they would likely have and 8-2 D to R balance.Texas would be 3 states with a 4-2 R balance.
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Or we could Break California up into 53 congressional districts and give them population based Representative in a non-senate branch of Congress. 

 
TheMagus said:
They didn't spend a year in a series of court cases and appeals proving they have legal subpoena power. 
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The effort would have been worth it to establish the precedent abundantly clearly.  Maybe not for this impeachment, but for the next.

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
Don't democrats die if they are removed from their urban environments?  
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I'm pretty sure but it's been awhile since I've lived in a red state, but from what i remember they do have urban environments so no worries 

 
WASHINGTON — A Senate vote to end President Donald Trump’s impeachment proceedings without calling witnesses should be considered “half a trial,” the president’s former chief of staff John Kelly said Friday.

“In my view, they kind of leave themselves open to a lot of criticism,” Kelly said in an interview with NJ Advance Media in advance of his Feb. 12 appearance at Drew University’s Drew Forum speaker series at the Mayo Performing Arts Center in Morristown.

“It seems it was half a trial,” Kelly said.

Kelly said he believed former National Security Adviser John Bolton’s assertion that Trump withheld congressionally approved aid to Ukraine to pressure that government into investigating former Vice President Joe Biden, a leading candidate for the 2020 Democratic presidential nomination.

Bolton, who made the claims in an unpublished book reported by the New York Times, was “a copious note taker” and was “an honest guy and an honorable guy,” Kelly said.

...“If I was advising the United States Senate, I would say, 'If you don’t respond to 75 percent of the American voters and have witnesses, it’s a job only half done,” he said. “You open yourself up forever as a Senate that shirks its responsibilities.” ...
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Newark Star Ledger

 
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Gatorman said:
The other senate concept is to break up states like california and texas into smaller states  If Cali broke up into 5 states, they would likely have and 8-2 D to R balance.Texas would be 3 states with a 4-2 R balance.
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If this is done only to undermine the representation of other states, would those other states be allowed to withdraw from the republic since they entered with a certain understanding of their representation in the republic?

 
Mile High said:
I'm pretty sure but it's been awhile since I've lived in a red state, but from what i remember they do have urban environments so no worries 
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Even if there were not they could bring their environments with them, sort of emotional greenhouses, artificial habitats, you know, Whole Foods, NPR, hot goat yoga, Education, the Arts, sanitation, skinny jeans.

 
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OMB filing reveals Trump involved in discussions on Ukraine aid as early as June

The Department of Justice revealed in a court filing late Friday that it has two dozen emails related to the President Donald Trump's involvement in the withholding of millions in security assistance to Ukraine -- a disclosure that came just hours after the Senate voted against subpoenaing additional documents and witnesses in Trump's impeachment trial, paving the way for his acquittal.

The filing, released near midnight Friday, marks the first official acknowledgment from the Trump administration that emails about the President's thinking related to the aid exist, and that he was directly involved in asking about and deciding on the aid as early as June. The administration is still blocking those emails from the public and has successfully kept them from Congress.

A lawyer with the Office of Management and Budget wrote to the court that 24 emails between June and September 2019 -- including an internal discussion among DOD officials called "POTUS follow-up" on June 24 -- should stay confidential because the emails describe "communications by either the President, the Vice President, or the President's immediate advisors regarding Presidential decision-making about the scope, duration, and purpose of the hold on military assistance to Ukraine." ...
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Ditkaless Wonders said:
Even if there were not they could bring their environments with them, sort of emotional greenhouses, artificial habitats, you know, Whole Foods, NPR, hot goat yoga, Education, the Arts, sanitation, skinny jeans.
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I now have 3 Whole Foods within 5 miles of my house. That’s pretty awesome. I think I’m going to have lunch at Whole Foods today. 

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
If this is done only to undermine the representation of other states, would those other states be allowed to withdraw from the republic since they entered with a certain understanding of their representation in the republic?
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Nobody alive entered into any of this.  All of us were just born into this ridiculous system (or we are immigrants).  Whatever mechanisms exist for withdrawal should be equally available to all states.

 
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timschochet said:
The “courageous” votes of Mitt Romney and Susan Collins only extend to the curiosity of wanting to hear from a witness or two. Next week they will, I believe, vote to acquit like all the rest. 
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Fwiw I'm not sure that a vote of conviction is a vote for removal, or am I wrong? There have been 15 impeachments, and some federal officers have been removed this way. I'm just curious how that vote actually works. 

What I find interesting is that Romney and Collins have not said that Trump is guilty or that there is a risk of his removal but Alexander and Rubio especially seemed to be saying that voting for witnesses would absolutely determine Trump's guilt and that the country could not be put through that. It's a strange dynamic.

 
Max Power said:
ShamrockPride said:
Jimmy Dore @Jimmy_Dore

Repeat After Me : We’ve learned NOTHING from losing to Trump & are bent on ignoring the cause of our problems. We should be threatening Dem politicians w/ their lives to represent workers, Instead we pretend Trump is THE problem not a symptom of rigged system & so we voter shame.
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Jimmy is one of the few who see things for what they are.
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We should be threatening to kill politicians? Seems a little authoritarian. 

 
Herb said:
I for one am damn glad I care about more than the size of my 401k and/or stock portfolio.  The line of thinking that money is the most important thing is shallow, selfish and ultimately destructive. 
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I wish we had sigs still. 

 
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SaintsInDome2006 said:
A lawyer with the Office of Management and Budget wrote to the court that 24 emails between June and September 2019 -- including an internal discussion among DOD officials called "POTUS follow-up" on June 24 -- should stay confidential because the emails describe "communications by either the President, the Vice President, or the President's immediate advisors regarding Presidential decision-making about the scope, duration, and purpose of the hold on military assistance to Ukraine." ...
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Huh.  I bet that would have cleared up a lot of misunderstanding.  I presume these emails clearly show that Trump was only concerned with burden sharing and corruption in general and not Biden.  Its really curious that the administration has fought so hard to hide exculpatory evidence.

 
I detect a lack of civics education on the left.  Also on the right.  Seems both sides want what they want regardless of the constitution and generally only refer to it when they think it supports their immediate point, but even then, they often misunderstand it.

Time to reintroduce civics into our school curriculums.  Time to make it mandatory that before one can vote they would, at a minimum, have to be able to pass our citizenship test we impose upon immigrants wishing to naturalize.  Time we make it mandatory to hold federal office that federal officeholders can not only pass the same test, but that they have to score 100% on the test.  We may also want a subsection for judges that they were never part of the Renate fan club, but that might be too specific.

 
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Ditkaless Wonders said:
I detect a lack of civics education on the left.  Also on the right.  Seems both sides want what they want regardless of the constitution and generally only refer to it when they think it supports their immediate point, but even then, they often misunderstand it.

Time to reintroduce civics into our school curriculums.  Time to make it mandatory that before one can vote they would, at a minimum, have to be able to pass our citizenship test we impose upon immigrants wishing to naturalize.  Time we make it mandatory to hold federal office that federal officeholders can not only pass the same test, but that they have to score 100% on the test.  We may also want a subsection for judges that they were never part of the Renate fan club, but that might be too specific.
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Not sure about the rest of the country but we/I teach Civic/Government here in California.

 
Herb said:
I for one am damn glad I care about more than the size of my 401k and/or stock portfolio.  The line of thinking that money is the most important thing is shallow, selfish and ultimately destructive. 
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I know a lot of people don’t have a 401k. But someone once said, “Its the economy, stupid”! May not apply these days.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Fwiw I'm not sure that a vote of conviction is a vote for removal, or am I wrong? There have been 15 impeachments, and some federal officers have been removed this way. I'm just curious how that vote actually works. 

What I find interesting is that Romney and Collins have not said that Trump is guilty or that there is a risk of his removal but Alexander and Rubio especially seemed to be saying that voting for witnesses would absolutely determine Trump's guilt and that the country could not be put through that. It's a strange dynamic.
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Rubio seems to be playing both sides, which is the correct political move when there is uncertainty about how this will play out, as more evidence emerges.  He does have political ambitions beyond 2020. Also, note that most Cubans don't agree with Trump cozying up to Putin. I think he's right that the country would be even more divided if Trump were removed. 

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
No, the populations are represented by the house, the states by the senate.  Just as big people get no more of a vote, big states are coequal, in the senate, with regular sized and small states.  The outsized populations of big states has already had their say in the house.

I submit that if we had direct democracy very soon the urban centers would separate from the rest of the country, we would be fractured.  The set up is genius in that it is what keeps us the states united, or at least it has.  We are so divided now who knows if we can ever truly unite.
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I get that and it’s a great point. But at this point at least the senate is heavily tilted towards conservative states. McConnell froze filling judges to the point judicial emergencies were declared during the Obama administration. And packed them with conservative judges, many who were borderline lunatics and deemed not qualified by the bar association during Trumps time.  So you have a senate advantage heavily tilted towards conservatives and the other branch packed with conservatives. All the while nullifying the power of democratic presidents to name judges. I’m 50 and will likely be dead and buried while these judges are tilting conservative. This doesn’t seem balanced to me whatsoever. I believe in protecting the minority but this is a long stretch past that.

Edit: Oh yeah and MERRICK GARLAND! 

 
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Jackstraw said:
From the New York Times:

WASHINGTON — More than two months before he asked Ukraine’s president to investigate his political opponents, President Trump directed John R. Bolton, then his national security adviser, to help with his pressure campaign to extract damaging information on Democrats from Ukrainian officials, according to an unpublished manuscript by Mr. Bolton.

Mr. Trump gave the instruction, Mr. Bolton wrote, during an Oval Office conversation in early May that included the acting White House chief of staff, Mick Mulvaney, the president’s personal lawyer Rudolph W. Giuliani and the White House counsel, Pat A. Cipollone, who is now leading the president’s impeachment defense.

Cipollone pulling a Nunes. THE CALLS ARE COMING FROM INSIDE THE HOUSE. Man that is some big brass balls. I'll give em that. 

If only there were some way we could clear this up.......
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In retrospect, what's weird about this is - why invite the White House counsel into what is a discussion on foreign aid and politics? Mulvaney makes sense, but I am guessing he brought in Cipollone because he saw the legal risk and asked Cipollone to advise Trump on that.

 
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Senator Rob Portman of Ohio: “I have said consistently for the past four months, since the Zelensky transcript was first released, that I believe that some of the president’s actions in this case — including asking a foreign country to investigate a potential political opponent and the delay of aid to Ukraine — were wrong and inappropriate. But I do not believe that the president’s actions rise to the level of removing a duly-elected president from office and taking him off the ballot in the middle of an election.”

...

Senator Ben Sasse of Nebraska: “Lamar speaks for lots and lots of us.” ...
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NYT

- A couple more statements.

 
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Jackstraw said:
I get that and it’s a great point. But at this point at least the senate is heavily tilted towards conservative states. McConnell froze filling judges to the point judicial emergencies were declared during the Obama administration. And packed them with conservative judges, many who were borderline lunatics and deemed not qualified by the bar association during Trumps time.  So you have a senate advantage heavily tilted towards conservatives and the other branch packed with conservatives. All the while nullifying the power of democratic presidents to name judges. I’m 50 and will likely be dead and buried while these judges are tilting conservative. This doesn’t seem balanced to me whatsoever. I believe in protecting the minority but this is a long stretch past that. 
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I dispute none of what you are saying.  Our system was predicated on our representatives having some semblance of honor and decency.  Our forefathers did not really envision the partisanship we currently encounter and currently embrace.  They did not envision us spiraling ever downward completely unable to come together and reason, one with the other.  Perhaps, in the end, they were fools, well intentioned, creative, intelligent, but fools.  It is amazing to me the contempt we have for one another and for truth.  I despair that we will remain much longer.  So many are willing to set fire to the lifeboat they themselves occupy simply to spite others in the boat.

 
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Juxtatarot said:
Trump supporters really should take note of these comments and realize what actually went on.  Unfortunately I don’t think they will. They will stay in their social and media bubbles and declare this all a victory for Trump. It isn’t.
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I think both sides live in their own bubble.  Just look at this forum for proof.  It was a victory for Trump.  No other way to spin it.

 
OrtonToOlsen said:
Not sure about the rest of the country but we/I teach Civic/Government here in California.
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Do you believe they understand the reasoning behind the number of house representatives and senate representatives from each state, since so many here do not, or does the extent of their knowledge go to one person one vote and direct representative democracy?   

 
JohnnyU said:
I think both sides live in their own bubble.  Just look at this forum for proof.  It was a victory for Trump.  No other way to spin it.
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I agree with your first sentence.  Regarding the rest, the Republican Senators are admitting what the Democrats said Trump did was true.  That should be terrible for him.

 
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