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***Official Donald J. Trump Impeachment (Whistleblower) Thread*** (8 Viewers)

stlrams said:
Plus you’re a public official meaning you deal with public sometimes which could get hostile so it comes with the job.
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You're asking "hostile" to do a lot of work here.

Dealing with hostile words and perspectives, part of the job? Sure. Of course.

Threats to one's person? No, "not part of the job." When it gets out of the realm of ideas and debate, it's no longer "part of the job".

 
stlrams said:
There are iuds, land mines, snipers, burning buildings, risking not only your life but your family, a guy pulling a gun on you, having to fight for your life vs a bad guy, getting tortured, etc etc.

yes - overhype indeed....
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Horrible. 5 people are DEAD. 

I lost a friend on 9/11 that was in one of the towers. He was a manager and made sure his employees were on the elevator first.  They made it. The tower came down before the elevator came back to his floor.  By your logic if the towers didn't collapse, and he made it out, OVERHYPE!! right?   

I'll never understand the lack of humanity some posters her continually display. 

 
Wait....people think Trump WON'T be running in 2024?  Really?  If he had to decide today, there should be no question that he'd be running again...I'd be shocked if he doesn't run in 2024.  My hope is as a "third party" guy....he's not going anywhere.  His ego won't let him.

 
I hope they pause any video they are playing and call out Hawley/Cruz/etc if they are not watching. Isn't it a clear deriliction of duty to not view or listen to the evidence being presented?

 
Roy L Fewks said:
BTW, I thought Trump's lawyers were terrible today. They acted like unprepared amateurs who didn't study and thought they could bluff their way through a final exam. Trump should have taken up Matt Gaetz on his offer, or maybe brought in Dershowitz.

I guess it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, because Trump will be found not guilty, but it's a bad look and it really makes no sense.
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So it’s in keeping with Trump’s entire presidency.

 
stlrams said:
Correct but having a trial after he is out of office is like having a trial to convict someone of a crime after they’re dead.  He’s not running for office ever again, he is essentially in hiding, and all of social media has cut him off at the knees.  It’s beating a dead horse so Democrats can score political points - plain and simple.  
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He’s not dead. At the moment, there’s nothing preventing him from running for office. And I guarantee some form of social, radio and/or televised media will be willing to support his rhetoric. 

 
stlrams said:
Correct but having a trial after he is out of office is like having a trial to convict someone of a crime after they’re dead.  He’s not running for office ever again, he is essentially in hiding, and all of social media has cut him off at the knees.  It’s beating a dead horse so Democrats can score political points - plain and simple.  
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Alexander Hamilton (I think) would disagree with you.  The institution of impeachment was designed as a political act, within a political theatre to control the actions of political men and be a national inquest into the actions of political leaders and their conduct.  The impeachment power is more important than any one President.  And the conviction of a President, in or out of office is more importantly viewed not through criminal law - where there is little comparison - but through political structure and foundational powers of the elected men and women we choose to lead us.

Arguing that running out the clock on being punished is a viable option speaks of our leaders in a way that none of us should support.

 
gianmarco said:
It's not a disregard for the safety of our elected officials so much as it is an attempt to gaslight and minimize due to the sides involved.  That's what's incredibly sad.

There are people from the "red" side (like @jm192, for example), that clearly came out and said it was wrong.  I know if Biden and his supporters (or anyone) did anything close to what happened 1/6, I would firmly denounce it regardless of which side they were on.  I would think most here would.  And that's why the ignore list exists and why it's pointless to engage those who engage in such bad faith.
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Yep on the bold. Probably should have done it already given his network.

 
stlrams said:
Scared yes but spare us the drama.   You are a public figure so dealing with hostile people comes with the job.   We have fireman, policeman, nurses on the covid wing. Military etc etc that risk their lives every day anonymously and in silence. So let’s put this in perspective and stop with the overhype.  
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"For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever."

One of Jefferson's listed complaints against the King in the Declaration of Independence was this specific complaint.  In a nutshell, the King and his army would stand as a threat against the colonial leaders who tried to assemble in order to legislate and lead.  They were forced, for years, to act under threat of violence, arrest and execution.  One of the many issues the Revolution was instituted to stop was the idea that any one power or person could make it  impossible for the people's legislative body to operate.  In forcing them to act under that constant threat, they were unable to act or lead.  

I don't understand the opinion from anyone in this country that saw what happened on January 6 and can try to think about normalizing it.  If our elected leaders are threated at all with their lives for doing the job we called them do, we won't have very many leaders - nor any we would want.  The very nature of a civilian government requires protection of that government and the people in it.  And we know this because we have hundreds if not thousands of laws that stand for that idea in this country.

Any attack on the governing body of a country is an act of war.  Any attack on the governing body of a country by its own people is an insurrection.  These aren't empty words.  And the Capitol Building is more than just a building that was trespassed on. 

If we are incapable of allowing civilians to lead our government without fear of attack on them personally and violently, we are no longer capable of having a civilian government.

 
timschochet said:
In another thread this morning @jon_mx referred to this as “a few people shouting.” 
Seriously what the heck is happening here? How can people watch these videos and reach this sort of conclusion? I just don’t get it. 
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Cognitive dissonance. In their hearts, they know people on their “side” did something egregious, but they can’t simultaneously accept that and remain a member of the group.

 
stlrams said:
Correct but having a trial after he is out of office is like having a trial to convict someone of a crime after they’re dead.  He’s not running for office ever again, he is essentially in hiding, and all of social media has cut him off at the knees.  It’s beating a dead horse so Democrats can score political points - plain and simple.  
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The trial is being held after he is out of office because Mitch McConnell wouldn't allow it while he was in office.

And we don't know the bolded.  And its not just about him...again, its so this never happens again...from anyone.

This is as plain and simple as can be...his action deserve consequences.  Just claiming its to score political points doesn't make it so...it actually may be losing them political battles for the future.  Because its actually the right thing to do.

 
stlrams said:
Our country was never at risk.  It was the work of 5000 zealous individuals in a country of 350m.  Was it unique and unfortunate-yes.  But the end of the United States as we know it - no never.  
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The population of the United States in 1776 was about 2 / 2.5 million.  As best as historians can guess only roughly 20-33% of the country could be considered supporters of the revolution.  Less than that took up any arms at all.  Less than that actually joined the army.  And even less than that stayed in the army after the initial call to arms, requiring things like payments, the conscription of slaves and a whole host of other things to beg people to serve.

It doesn't take much to overthrow a government. 

I don't think they would have gotten that far to be honest.  But again, I find it hard to fathom anyone that just brushes aside what happened within its proper context.

 
stlrams said:
Do you think our elected officials really care about our safety all the time?  Plus you’re a public official meaning you deal with public sometimes which could get hostile so it comes with the job.
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It specifically doesn't with our civilian leadership.  Our military and police forces, yes.  The Legislatures?  No, never.

 
stlrams said:
Do you think our elected officials really care about our safety all the time?  Plus you’re a public official meaning you deal with public sometimes which could get hostile so it comes with the job.
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No...bombs...people screaming Hang Mike Pence...people beating people with flagpoles...that does not come with the job.  No more than Scalise and Giffords being shot "comes with the job".

That is an awful attitude to have about this.

 
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dgreen said:
Not surprisingly, this is going the same way as just about everything else with Trump. There are a lot of people who basically say, "I don't support Trump, but I defend everything he does."
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And plenty that won't even go that far...just criticize those that are critical of Trump.  Never taking an actual stand on any issue.  That way they can never be pinned down as a supporter.  

 
It was pretty much a guarantee that the deflection in this thread was going to happen.  There was no real escaping it.  However, the keyboard commando shtick caught me off guard.  Didn't see that one coming :lol:  

 
Ramsay Hunt Experience said:
“ I don’t support Trump, but I support owning libs.”
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Maybe that's how it started out, but it seems more about Trump now than the libs. Hanging Pence doesn't own the libs. Harassing Graham at the airport doesn't own the libs. Anyone who opposes Trump on anything is the enemy, whether they are libs or not. Well, I guess we could argue that anyone who opposes Trump is then labeled a lib, so maybe it still fits that way.

 
Yankee23Fan said:
Alexander Hamilton (I think) would disagree with you.  The institution of impeachment was designed as a political act, within a political theatre to control the actions of political men and be a national inquest into the actions of political leaders and their conduct.  The impeachment power is more important than any one President.  And the conviction of a President, in or out of office is more importantly viewed not through criminal law - where there is little comparison - but through political structure and foundational powers of the elected men and women we choose to lead us.

Arguing that running out the clock on being punished is a viable option speaks of our leaders in a way that none of us should support.
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I've been thinking of it in terms of employment/HR. Do we want this person working in our organization? Do we want to allow this person the opportunity to work in our organization again?

"Let the voters decide" is not a solution to every situation just like "Let our hiring managers decide" isn't a solution to every situation in an organization. Sometimes, HR and other executives have to say whether or not someone is even eligible and take that part of it out of the hiring manager's (or voter's) hands.

 
sho nuff said:
And we don't know the bolded.  And its not just about him...again, its so this never happens again...from anyone.
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Outstanding point. This is why I'm comfortable with a considerable degree of whatever apparent over-punishment may result from the Senate trial. You never want a public official in the future to perform some calculus and think "Hmmm ... they didn't impeach for THAT, so perhaps there's room for me to grab illicit power".

 
dgreen said:
Maybe that's how it started out, but it seems more about Trump now than the libs. Hanging Pence doesn't own the libs. Harassing Graham at the airport doesn't own the libs. Anyone who opposes Trump on anything is the enemy, whether they are libs or not. Well, I guess we could argue that anyone who opposes Trump is then labeled a lib, so maybe it still fits that way.
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They turn on those guys because they have shown insufficient commitment to owning the libs.  That’s where the loyalty to Trump comes from. He’s certainly no more “conservative” than Mike Pence or Graham. But he is more committed to the proposition that Democrats are villains and monsters and crooks who must not just be opposed on a political or philosophical level, but rather on an existential level. 

 
The Commish said:
Wait....people think Trump WON'T be running in 2024?  Really?  If he had to decide today, there should be no question that he'd be running again...I'd be shocked if he doesn't run in 2024.  My hope is as a "third party" guy....he's not going anywhere.  His ego won't let him.
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He'll need the  :moneybag: too

 
sho nuff said:
No...bombs...people screaming Hang Mike Pence...people beating people with flagpoles...that does not come with the job.  No more than Scalise and Giffords being shot "comes with the job".

That is an awful attitude to have about this.
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I’m sorry you can’t understand that history supports my premise that it’s part of the job.  We have had 4 sittings presidents assassinated. It’s a not an attitude just my opinion.  

 
stlrams said:
Tell that to ms Lincoln.  
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John Wilkes Booth was hunted down and shot to death by the army in a search that took the entirety of the Federal government's might to conduct and prosecute.

Lewis Powell, George Atzerodt and David Herold were arrested and tried by a military tribunal for their crimes and actions in conjunction with the Assassination of President Lincoln, and the attempted murders of Secretary of State Seward and Vice President Johnson.  Those 3, along with Mary Surratt who was also tried by a military tribunal and convicted for conspiring with them even though she didn't fire a shot and wasn't at any scene, were all together hanged for their crimes.

The assassination of Lincoln wasn't treated like a normal event and a normal result for a civilian leader conducted by regular citizens.  It was considered more than a crime.  It was an attack not just on Lincoln but an attack on the very government.  Secretary Stanton immediately invoked every power he had, and many he didn't, to conduct the search, arrest, trial and execution of the conspirators of the assassination.

If you would like to invoke Lincoln in any argument here I'm game.  I've studied it for 30 years.  Let's go.

And if you want to seriously invoke that assassination as a lens to view what happened on January 6, I'm fine with that.  The Secretary of Defense should formally request that President Biden designate everyone involved as an enemy combatant, have the military, and not the police, hunt them all down, try them in a military court, and if found guilty, execute them immediately after under the Code of Military Justice.

And we can suspend the Impeachment trial in the Senate, and have former President Trump taken into custody by the National Guard of Florida for transport to federal prison to stand trial before a military court.

I doubt you want that.

And if you want to talk about the other assassinations, I'm game as well.  The military changed their defensive stance and orders immediately after the assassination of Kennedy including the launching of a significant amount of our nuclear bombers to stand ready for attack.

I doubt you want that either.

 
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stlrams said:
I’m sorry you can’t understand that history supports my premise that it’s part of the job.  We have had 4 sittings presidents assassinated. It’s a not an attitude just my opinion.  
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What an odd attitude.

School shooting? It’s happened before. You should have expected it. No reason to get upset.

Church shooting?  It’s happened before. You should have expected it. No reason to get upset.

Rape?  It’s happened before. You should have expected it. No reason to get upset.
 

 
timschochet said:
In another thread this morning @jon_mx referred to this as “a few people shouting.” 
Seriously what the heck is happening here? How can people watch these videos and reach this sort of conclusion? I just don’t get it. 
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I was not characterizing the whole event.  I was characterizing what the media latched onto as 'proof' this was an organized attack.  It was not an organized or planned coup.  It was a protest that due to a completely inadequate security presence turned into a riot.  99.9% of the people who showed up to protests had no intention of going inside the Capitol Building. 

 
stlrams said:
I’m sorry you can’t understand that history supports my premise that it’s part of the job.  We have had 4 sittings presidents assassinated. It’s a not an attitude just my opinion.  
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Ummm...that still doesn't make it part of the job.  Especially when the mob is entering the capitol...when the mob is whipped into a frenzy by a sitting POTUS...and is coming to your office because of lies told by POTUS.

No...that is not part of the job, shouldn't be part of the job...and should be called out as behavior we are not just shrugging off.  Its quite disgusting to do so.

 
The Commish said:
Right....all these arguments for why NOT to proceed with ensuring law/order are followed are setting a precedent that most aren't thinking about.
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Never in my life have I considered Republicans to be "forward thinking." Especially when I compare them to Democrats the last 40 years. 

 
jon_mx said:
I was not characterizing the whole event.  I was characterizing what the media latched onto as 'proof' this was an organized attack.  It was not an organized or planned coup.  It was a protest that due to a completely inadequate security presence turned into a riot.  99.9% of the people who showed up to protests had no intention of going inside the Capitol Building. 
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:lmao:

"Hey look, I robbed the bank because their security was completely inadequate.  Not my fault!"

"Hey, I didn't plan on stealing that painting from the museum, but when I noticed their inadequate security, the thing just leapt into my arms".  

Baghdad Bob would be proud of you.  You spin like Fred Astaire on skates.  At this point, I can just sit back and marvel at you.  

 
stlrams said:
I’m sorry you can’t understand that history supports my premise that it’s part of the job.  We have had 4 sittings presidents assassinated. It’s a not an attitude just my opinion.  
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Getting assassinated or physically assaulted is not an accepted part of the job. It's something we actively attempt to prevent in various ways because it is not an accepted part of the job.

 
sho nuff said:
No...bombs...people screaming Hang Mike Pence...people beating people with flagpoles...that does not come with the job.  No more than Scalise and Giffords being shot "comes with the job".

That is an awful attitude to have about this.
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And why it's a pointless exercise. They don't care.

 
General Malaise said:
:lmao:

"Hey look, I robbed the bank because their security was completely inadequate.  Not my fault!"

"Hey, I didn't plan on stealing that painting from the museum, but when I noticed their inadequate security, the thing just leapt into my arms".  

Baghdad Bob would be proud of you.  You spin like Fred Astaire on skates.  At this point, I can just sit back and marvel at you.  
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Having a mob approach the Capitol with just a couple of cops and a barricade a three-grader could have gotten through was a bigger contributor than Trump.  BLM and leftist look at the lack of police presence as evidence of how racist the police are, but in reality a major police presence at large events where emotions run high are essential to keeping the protest peaceful and  in fact did limit damage over the summer.  The amount of police present on January 6th is like a bank leaving bags of money on the sidewalk.  

 
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