Henry Ford
Footballguy
I think we as a nation bear the burdens of slavery. Every one of us. People of color bear them differently than us white people.
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Justin Trudeau can’t remember how many times he’s worn blackface. (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
John Blutarsky
Footballguy
zoonation
Footballguy
Wildly popular in eastern Canada. Most detested PM in Canadian history out west.
But your analysis of Justin is spot on.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Blackface is one of those things where social norms have changed. If somebody appeared in blackface in their 1965 college yearbook, whatever, different era. The 1980s seemed to me to be around the time that people were changing their views on this one. By 2001, everybody knew or should have known that blackface was off-limits.
I'm actually open to the argument that blackface shouldn't be considered racist and that the current norm is wrong. But the norm is what it is, and a person who flagrantly violates it knows that he's giving gratuitous offense.
Edit: Also, as John Blutarsky noted, we rightly judge kids differently than we do grown adults.
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KCitons
Footballguy
the analogy for me wasn't the comparison of the act but the comparison of the response.
Dickies
Footballguy
Context also matters. I am much more inclined to forgive Trudeau than I am someone like Gov Northam even if blackface was considered more acceptable in the early 80's than it is now.
timschochet
Footballguy
We can certainly forgive people over time, but it’s always been racist, always. From the beginnings of the minstrel movement black leaders such as Frederick Douglass , even Before Dubois, wrote long articles complaining how demeaning it was for whites to put on black cork and imitate black singers. (Douglass ought to meet with Trump and discuss this.)
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Dickies
Footballguy
Mister CIA
Footballguy
1988, Business Class on an 8-hour Cathay Pacific flight. My first wine drunk and I watched Ishtar. Top-5 all-time, imo.
ETA: I smoked a half-pack of Marlboro Lights, and my buddy sitting next to me went through a few barf bags. I did not believe him when he said that cigarette smoke made him sick. Sorry, dude.
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SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Ha thanks for the laugh man.
hxperson
Footballguy
I would say more Canadians (that I know, anyway) are more upset with his hypocrisy than anything else.
He's always carried a bit of a holier than thou attitude when it comes to his "inclusiveness". I.e. correcting someone who said "mankind" with "peoplekind", and calling himself a feminist, etc. Really cringe-worthy stuff. Anyways, knowing now that he had this kind of thing hidden in his closet the whole time is a bad look.
He's clearly not a racist and likely just had a tacky/misguided sense of what constitutes as socially acceptable over-enthusiasm. An ignorant cornball, if you will.
Let's not go off the deep end here, people. Soul Man was a terrific movie.
Make whatever point you want about the Canadian politician guy, but leave Rae Dawn Chong's single best cinematic performance out of it.
That is all.
Make whatever point you want about the Canadian politician guy, but leave Rae Dawn Chong's single best cinematic performance out of it.
That is all.
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![[scooter]](/data/avatars/m/22/22287.jpg?1659477690){kind=avatar}
[scooter]
Footballguy
I disagree that people started changing their views in the 1980s.IvanKaramazov said:
Ted Danson did it in 1993, and while it caused ripples in the tabloids for a while, it had no lasting impact on his career.
Perhaps things would have gone differently for him if he had done it in 2001, but I doubt it.
timschochet
Footballguy
Wrong. She sucked in that movie.
She was far better in Quest for Fire when all she was required to do was grunt and demonstrate different ways of sexual intercourse.
[scooter]
Footballguy
As far as I'm concerned, there is a distinction between "minstrel blackface" and "wearing makeup as a tribute to a specific person". The latter is usually justifiable while the former is usually not.timschochet said:
There's also a distinction between blackface that is meant to exaggerate negative stereotypes (i.e., the 1800s minstrel shows) and blackface that is meant to satirize those same stereotypes (i.e., "Tropic Thunder").
I'm not really sure where Trudeau fits in that range, although my gut tells me that his intent was a little too close to the "minstrel" side of things.
McJose
Footballguy
If he's done it at least 3 times (that he can recall), there's a good chance that he's probably done it more. He probably was doing an awful lot of tributes.
Thanks [scooter]. Wild guess - what percentage of people do you think agree with your position here? In other words, how mainstream do you think that position is?
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[scooter]
Footballguy
I think the majority of people agree with my position, although everyone has their own internal "sliding scale" in terms of where the line is drawn. For example, I don't think very many people get outraged when Frank Caliendo wears dark makeup and does a spot-on impersonation of Charles Barkley. In Caliendo's case, the makeup is light-brown and the impersonation is obviously not done in a mean-spirited manner.
But if Caliendo was wearing significantly darker makeup and talking in a stereotypical "Stepin' Fetchit" voice, I think people would start getting offended. And if Caliendo had blackened his skin while making his eyes white and his lips bright red (i.e., the "minstrel" look), then his career would have been dead in the water.
In Trudeau's case, I think that it's possible that he had 100% innocent intentions. But when the makeup is that dark, and when he has a history of doing it multiple times......then he loses the benefit of the doubt.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I agree with you in principle -- this is how it ought to work. But it's a fact of life that if I -- a white guy -- blacken my face to dress up like Thurman Thomas on Halloween, a non-trivial segment of people will genuinely take offense. And since I don't want to gratuitously give offense, I therefore shouldn't do that, even if don't think their offense is really justified on any higher level.
This issue is a lot like the N-word, specifically that euphemism. It's stupid and awful and infantilizes all of us. Using the N-word by directing it at somebody as a term of derision is obviously terrible, but referencing it as a word that exists in our language should be completely a-okay. People who take offense to a non-black person referencing the N-word are wrong to do so. But as a speaker, I'm not interested in fighting that particular battle. If I'm giving a public speech that somehow involves in the N-word, I know that a non-trivial segment of the audience will genuinely take offense if I say ###### instead of the euphemism. I don't want to gratuitously give offense, so I'll use the euphemism even if I think it's kind of stupid.
boots11234
Footballguy
What country to black people have it better? And LOL at curse on their head. I’m guessing there’s probably millions and millions in Africa who’d love to come here and get that ‘curse’.
When we as a government are in the business of trying to figure out who bears what burden and how to rectify it, we lose. It is an impossible task and ridiculous to even try to attempt. Of course to even suggest to treat all people equally and respect is to be cast a racist. This is tearing this country apart. The real solution is to move forward and learn from our past mistakes, instead each side is drifting further apart and becoming more radical and producing more hatred between people. And it is both sides and anyone who thinks not is a major part of the problem.
dawgtrails
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
This same argument, nearly word for word, was made by opponents of integration, of the Civil Rights Act, and just about every other time racism against blacks been the issue of discussion in this country.
Its the argument of the clueless white man who thinks that black people, rather than seek absolute equality in society, should be grateful for what they already have.
Yeah, that is the pathetic response I expect from the left. Every figgin time in the cesspool. Keep being jerks and mocking how a large portion of this country see things. It is a big part of the problem.
No, it is the arguement to give them equality and move forward. The false narratives and zero empathy towards a prevalent point of view is as much of the problem as Trump is.
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timschochet
Footballguy
Well you’re correct that I have no empathy with this position or with “white resentment” in general. I know it exists, but my attitude is that it’s awful and we (the rest of us who don’t have it) shouldn’t pander to it. Like climate change denial and opposition to gun control, we need to defeat it at the ballot box, and we need to educate all children, yours and ours, so that future generations won’t share these dangerous beliefs.
BTW- I’ve seen you misspell the word “argument” many times. There’s no “e” after the “u”. HTH.
Treating all people equally and with respect is not an awful position. In fact it is the best position and the only position that works. Trying to put people into different buckets and creating rules for how to treat people in each bucket to make the world fair is the most obscenely ridiculous task imaginable and will not satisfy any group and create divisions not matter how good intentions you feel you have. You can not create a fair world. But you can make equal rules which treats everyone's rights with respect.
boots11234
Footballguy
Which side was against those things again? And your argument is that of one who really doesn’t believe black people can achieve, arnt (fill in the blank) enough, are not equal.
Hows that unemployment under MAGA? They’ve been voting D for 40 years and what’s it gotten them?
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Henry Ford
Footballguy
squistion
Footballguy
Continuing the exact same trend for black unemployment that was under Obama, if you look at any graph.
dawgtrails
Footballguy
Thanks. I thought that thinking though was the basic issue with the uproar over Megyn Kelly when she didn't understand why a white girl dressing up like Diana Ross for Halloween would be offensive. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/25/business/media/megyn-kelly-skips-today-blackface-nbc.html
I thought Kelly being way in the wrong was the majority opinion.
And to be clear, I'm talking more about what other people think here.
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McJose
Footballguy
You are literally doing the same thing.
”Don’t mock how a large portion of this country sees things. Also, the left are jerks and pathetic.”
[scooter]
Footballguy
I think that Megyn Kelly is mostly right, but for the wrong reasons. When she was at Fox, she was a poster child for drumming up racially divisive stories and playing the "white Christian outrage" game. Then she tried to pull the same shtick at NBC and failed to realize that NBC has higher standards for their representatives.
I think that if a less divisive (and more respected) host would have made a similar argument, then the story wouldn't have blown up the way it did.
Interesting. Thanks.
And thanks for sharing your take on it. It genuinely surprised me.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
toshiba
Footballguy
I don't care it if wasn't considered morally wrong in the past. It was in 2001 and it is now. I am willing to accept that people need to be judged on today's morals in today's society.
No, I am good. 80 percent of the resonses in the PSF to me in this forum do at least one of the following:
1. Dismissive
2. Mocking
3. Snarky/Sarcastic
4. Guilt by Association
5. Labling/name-calling
6. Strawman
If that is all I have to respond to, I am going to call the crappy responses for what they are. I think it is horrible that in this forum's view, 30-40 percent of the people of this country don't have a point of view worthy of any consideration. Certainly specific acts of racism needs to be called out and erradicated, but that does not define the other side. The principles which made this country great were equality and respecting individual rights. The tactic of the left make white people feel as second class citizens and mock them if they dare even to question it. They do have legitimate points which have nothing to do with racism or bigotry and to not acknowledge any of it will only add to the racial divide and we will never heal or advance from where we are. I think we have actually backtracked significantly in the last decade.
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Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
I thought her best work was in American Flyers. Her most compelling work was in Quest for Fire. Her most powerful line delivered in film was in Commando where she totally nailed "I say again, Commando!"
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toshiba
Footballguy
Our country made great strides in equality between classes that really did not exist elsewhere. It was far from perfect as the world was hopelessly racist. But the experiment which this country started was a critical step forward for the world. We still are still far from perfect, but the answer is not to go against those principles in a hopeless attempt to rectify the past.
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Henry Ford
Footballguy
Jon, you’re entitled to your feelings, whether I or anyone else agrees with them, but the complaints you have in this post are exemplified by no post I’ve seen as well as by this one:
Hence, “medice, cura te ipsum.”
Dismissive. Mocking. Sarcastic. Guilt by association. Labeling. Straw man.
toshiba
Footballguy
The difference is I am responding to a specific terrible posting. I put up a post which attempted to outline a different point of view only to get it dismiss as a 'persecuted white guy thing'. I was not being disrepectful to anyone. I responded to the crap which unfortunately is way too typical of the posting which occurs here and is routinely condoned by the vast majority of posters here. Kind of like an incident i witnessed yeterday. A older white guy entered the CVS I was in and muttered something under his breath about being a bum which this black guy overheard. The black guy went off on him for a bit and told him he had a respectable job and was a CPA. So according to the logic employed by this forum, the black guy was the problem for creating the scene, not the white guy who was out of line and was really the cause.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
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