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Acupuncture, who’s done it? (1 Viewer)

Beef Ravioli

Footballguy
Just moved and was looking for a new chiropractor. Reading up on a local place and noticed they did acupuncture. They list several areas that acupuncture can help and the first one is sciatica. I’ve been dealing with this for going on ten years. Chiropractor helps but never fixed it. Anyone use acupuncture for sciatica? Advice? 

 
I tried it. Was awful. Pretty sure the person doing it to me was very inexperienced. I always thought it wasn't supposed to feel like somebody is shoving a needle in your spine, but that's exactly what it felt like with every other insertion. I eventually said take them out and stop. Was just brutal. 

 
Just moved and was looking for a new chiropractor. Reading up on a local place and noticed they did acupuncture. They list several areas that acupuncture can help and the first one is sciatica. I’ve been dealing with this for going on ten years. Chiropractor helps but never fixed it. Anyone use acupuncture for sciatica? Advice? 
My PT called it "dry needling."  He said its the same as acupuncture, but calling it "dry needling" allows Western practitioners to regulate it, provide certification, and pretend its something modern and not based on ancient asian medicine.  It didn't work for me.

My neighbor, who is a chiropractor, advised me to try doing the yoga "cobra" pose and "pigeon" pose for my sciatica.  Its worked for me.

 
Tried it a couple of times because a girlfriend was into it and wanted me to give it a shot.

I'll say if you believe in chriopractors, no reason you won't believe in acupuncture too.
My back doctor was the one who recommended the chiropractor.  I can honestly say I was 100% a skeptic of them.  But I went because my actual doctor told me to try.  It's been amazing.  I'm guessing without the chiropractor, I'd be taking a lot more pills.  

My first day there, he took a x-ray of my spine and showed me what was wrong.  Then he said he'd take another x-ray in 4 months after doing the treatment.  I figured it was covered by insurance and I'd go until I could see the next x-ray.  Was sure at that point I could see he was a scam artist.  When they compared the two x-rays, you could see a huge difference.  Not only was the pain at the lowest level it had been in years, but I could actually see proof of what was happening.

So, before I went, I would've agree chiropractors were a joke.  But I'm sorry I didn't go sooner now that I've realized how much he's helped.

 
My PT called it "dry needling."  He said its the same as acupuncture, but calling it "dry needling" allows Western practitioners to regulate it, provide certification, and pretend its something modern and not based on ancient asian medicine.  It didn't work for me.

My neighbor, who is a chiropractor, advised me to try doing the yoga "cobra" pose and "pigeon" pose for my sciatica.  Its worked for me.
If do right, no can defense.

 
I don't see the need to bag on chiros.  They do a lot of good for many people


Yeah, in the actual care of back/musculoskeletal issues they can be legit.  It's all the pseudoscience that the profession typically brings in (and what it was originally based on) that makes it worthy of the criticism.  If the new one who BR is looking into practices acupuncture, then he's what this article would call a "mixer" at best.

Almost since the beginning, chiropractic has been fraught with many internal schisms. Today there is a wide range of differences between individual chiropractors, but most can be placed within one of three basic types.

Straight chiropractors consider themselves the only true or pure chiropractors because they limit their practice to the identification and treatment of spinal subluxations. They adhere strictly to Palmer’s concept of disease and believe that all ailments can be treated through manipulation to restore the flow of innate intelligence. Once freely flowing, they believe innate intelligence has unlimited power to naturally heal the body.

Straight chiropractors are the most extreme in their anti-scientific views. They openly advocate a philosophical rather than a scientific basis for health care, calling mainstream medicine “mechanistic” and “allopathic.” They call physicians “drug pushers” and disparage the use of surgery. They are careful not to give diseases names, but none-the-less they claim to cure disease with their adjustments. They oppose vaccinations. They also openly advocate the replacement of scientific medicine with chiropractic as primary health care. 

Mixers, comprising the largest segment of chiropractors, may at first seem more rational. They accept that some disease is caused by infection or other causes and they do not limit their practice to fixing subluxations. Most chiropractors in this group, however, do not supplement subluxation theory with scientific medicine, but rather with an eclectic array of pseudoscientific alternative practices. Mixers commonly prescribe homeopathic and herbal remedies, practice acupuncture and therapeutic touch, diagnose with iridology, contour analysis, and applied kinesiology, and adhere to the philosophy of naturopathy. This broad use of unproven, unscientific, and fanciful so-called “alternative” practices clearly indicates an antiscience attitude, as well as a lack of scientific knowledge, on the part of those chiropractors who employ them.

The rhetoric of mixers indicates that they are attempting to become accepted into the scientific mainstream, rather than replace scientifically based medicine with a philosophy based approach. They no longer openly oppose immunization, like straights do, but they do advocate the freedom to choose whether or not to be immunized. Their appeal to freedom is emotionally effective, especially in the United States, but it fails to recognize that immunization is far less effective in eliminating or containing infectious diseases when it is not given to everyone. They also advocate a role for chiropractors as a primary care portal of entry system within HealthCare, despite the fact that they lack adequate training as generalists skilled in medical diagnosis.

A small minority of chiropractors, numbering only about 1,000, or 2% of all chiropractors (these are rough estimates because accurate figures are lacking), have been openly critical of their own field. They have called for absolute rejection of the subluxation theory of illness, disposing of pseudoscientific and unethical practices by chiropractors, and the restriction of chiropractic to treating acute musculoskeletal symptoms. They are attempting to bring their field into the scientific mainstream.



 
It’s been studied, and appears to help chronic back pain. Just make sure they sterilize their needles between uses.

Background:

Low back pain limits activity and is the second most frequent reason for physician visits. Previous research shows widespread use of acupuncture for low back pain.

Purpose:

To assess acupuncture's effectiveness for treating low back pain.

Data Sources:

Randomized, controlled trials were identified through searches of MEDLINE, Cochrane Central, EMBASE, AMED, CINAHL, CISCOM, and GERA databases through August 2004. Additional data sources included previous reviews and personal contacts with colleagues.

Study Selection:

Randomized, controlled trials comparing needle acupuncture with sham acupuncture, other sham treatments, no additional treatment, or another active treatment for patients with low back pain.

Data Extraction:

Data were dually extracted for the outcomes of pain, functional status, overall improvement, return to work, and analgesic consumption. In addition, study quality was assessed.

Data Synthesis:

The 33 randomized, controlled trials that met inclusion criteria were subgrouped according to acute or chronic pain, style of acupuncture, and type of control group used. The principal measure of effect size was the standardized mean difference, since the trials assessed the same outcome but measured it in various ways. For the primary outcome of short-term relief of chronic pain, the meta-analyses showed that acupuncture is significantly more effective than sham treatment (standardized mean difference, 0.54 [95% CI, 0.35 to 0.73]; 7 trials) and no additional treatment (standardized mean difference, 0.69 [CI, 0.40 to 0.98]; 8 trials). For patients with acute low back pain, data are sparse and inconclusive. Data are also insufficient for drawing conclusions about acupuncture's short-term effectiveness compared with most other therapies.

Limitations:

The quantity and quality of the included trials varied.

Conclusions:

Acupuncture effectively relieves chronic low back pain. No evidence suggests that acupuncture is more effective than other active therapies.

 
Tried acupuncture for back pain about twelve years ago.  It didn't work for me in this case.

My doctor just wanted to prescribe muscle relaxants.  I was eventually helped by orthopedic blocking from a chiropractor.

 
Yeah, in the actual care of back/musculoskeletal issues they can be legit.  It's all the pseudoscience that the profession typically brings in (and what it was originally based on) that makes it worthy of the criticism.  If the new one who BR is looking into practices acupuncture, then he's what this article would call a "mixer" at best.
:goodposting: But the people who seek them out are pretty receptive to complementary/alternative therapies anyway, so they probably aren’t influencing many  to reject conventional medicine beyond their baseline beliefs.

I would definitely avoid cervical spine manipulations, as there’re more than a few injuries that have resulted from this practice. I guess the same could be said about spine surgery though.

 
Tried acupuncture for back pain about twelve years ago.  It didn't work for me in this case.

My doctor just wanted to prescribe muscle relaxants.  I was eventually helped by orthopedic blocking from a chiropractor.
A good example of a conventional medicine which has not been shown to be beneficial.

 
I tried it for tinnitus years ago. The first time it seemed to help a bit. The second time, I almost passed out and my tinnitus got much worse. The third time, my tinnitus was back to when I first went there and I never went back after it.  It was interesting that there was a change but I was too scared to make it worse again.

 
When Ex#2 was going to school to become a nurse anesthetist they were introduced to alternatives in pain management. IIRC, both acupuncture and hypnosis have been used successfully for pain management as well as during surgery instead of drugs.

Ex#1 found relief from menopause via acupuncture. 

I tried it for my back and got no relief. Did it for probably 8 sessions and started with just the needles, then added light therapy and eventually connected needles with electrodes to introduce electrical current. I probably wouldn't have stuck with it for so long, except the acupuncturist looked almost exactly like Evangeline Lilly (from Lost).

 
Used to get it to ease migraines and it worked very well. I only went when I was getting real bad ones. I caution you to do your research and go a reputable practitioner. 

 
Just moved and was looking for a new chiropractor. Reading up on a local place and noticed they did acupuncture. They list several areas that acupuncture can help and the first one is sciatica. I’ve been dealing with this for going on ten years. Chiropractor helps but never fixed it. Anyone use acupuncture for sciatica? Advice? 
i tried it on board an MSC cruise ship in the Mediterranean.  45-60 minutes of pure misery.  told my wife the guy was like an effin witch doctor.  he was maybe cuban and pitch black.  didn’t explain anything and, if he did, no idea what he was saying.  it felt uncomfortable and hurty and i’ve sat in a tattoo chair for 5-6 hours at a time.  i actually bled from my forearm, which hurt me for 4 weeks after, maybe he hit a nerve too hard.....hard pass going forward.  

 
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i tried it on board an MSC cruise ship in the Mediterranean.  45-60 minutes of pure misery.  told my wife the guy was like an effin witch doctor.  he was maybe cuban and pitch black.  didn’t explain anything and, if he did, no idea what he was saying.  it felt uncomfortable and hurty and i’ve sat in a tattoo chair for 5-6 hours at a time.  i actually bled from my forearm, which hurt me for 4 weeks after, maybe he hit a nerve too hard.....hard pass going forward.  
Sounds more like a Santaria bloodletting ceremony. You probably just sat in the wrong chair.

 
I tried it for tinnitus years ago. The first time it seemed to help a bit. The second time, I almost passed out and my tinnitus got much worse. The third time, my tinnitus was back to when I first went there and I never went back after it.  It was interesting that there was a change but I was too scared to make it worse again.
My tinnitus is/was horrible, until I got a hearing aid.  It has masked it nicely and its so much better now.  You should look into it.

 
My tinnitus is/was horrible, until I got a hearing aid.  It has masked it nicely and its so much better now.  You should look into it.
Interesting. Thankfully, I am able to mask it for the most part unless it really kicks in. I've found that salt has a big effect on it so I keep my salt intake low. If it ever gets to an unbearable level, I'll look into hearing aids...thanks!

 
Interesting. Thankfully, I am able to mask it for the most part unless it really kicks in. I've found that salt has a big effect on it so I keep my salt intake low. If it ever gets to an unbearable level, I'll look into hearing aids...thanks!
Yes, same with me in regards to the salt.  But the hearing aid was a life changer.  Hope you can keep a check on your tinnitus.  I know it sucks.

 
Used to get it to ease migraines and it worked very well. I only went when I was getting real bad ones. I caution you to do your research and go a reputable practitioner. 
Had it done for migraines as well. Didn't seem to work. The first session, I actually felt a little more relaxed and less tense, which is one trigger for my migraines, and actually fell asleep on the table after the needles were inserted.

The second session I had a really bad migraine, and it did nothing -- but worse yet, the doctor seemed really zealous to show me it would work, and was really pressing the needle into a place in my right hand, asking if I still had a headache, to the point I had him stop immediately, take the needles out, and I left.

I mean, I'm all for trying unconventional medicinal approaches, and was never under the illusion accupuncture was going to be a magic cure (as opposed to another potential arrow in the quiver for preventative treatment, like massage). But this was really something else -- felt completely irresponsible and dangerous.

 
Worked for temporary relief from RA symptoms for the wife.  General body inflammation and should pain went away for a while.  I'm guessing a lot depends on the acupuncturist.  Not sure how much placebo effect plays into this.

 
The place I am looking at is two sisters that are in business together. It is primarily a chiropractors office but it looks like they have begun acupuncture several years ago. They had over 50 reviews on google and have a five star rating. Many of the reviewers spoke of the cleanliness, professionalism and that their care (both chiro and acupuncture) had done wonders. 

I have a consultation next week to see what they recommend for my sciatica. It’s a free consultation, so if it looks shady to me, I can bail on it without being out anything. 

Curious enough about the acupuncture that I think I am going to give it a try unless it just looks awful. My wife had a spell of BellsPalsy several years ago and it was recommended that she do acupuncture for therapy. It did wonders for my wife. Her recovery from BP was quick and complete. We give at least some of that credit to the acupuncture. 

 
The place I am looking at is two sisters that are in business together. It is primarily a chiropractors office but it looks like they have begun acupuncture several years ago. They had over 50 reviews on google and have a five star rating. Many of the reviewers spoke of the cleanliness, professionalism and that their care (both chiro and acupuncture) had done wonders. 

I have a consultation next week to see what they recommend for my sciatica. It’s a free consultation, so if it looks shady to me, I can bail on it without being out anything. 

Curious enough about the acupuncture that I think I am going to give it a try unless it just looks awful. My wife had a spell of BellsPalsy several years ago and it was recommended that she do acupuncture for therapy. It did wonders for my wife. Her recovery from BP was quick and complete. We give at least some of that credit to the acupuncture. 
i am a cervical spine sufferer with a minor in sciatica.  where is your pain and what medical steps have you tried?

 
Big League Chew said:
I have one if those acupressure mats and pillow. No lies but my lower back pain and neck pain are gone after using it
You're the third person with neck and back pain to say this (the other two were co-workers). Just ordered a Spoonk one from Amazon based on ratings and will provide my review once I've tried it a few times. I have neck and lower back issues - although not nearly as bad as some posters in this thread, when my lower back is bad it's pretty debilitating for me for anywhere from a few days to a few weeks until it gets better. 

 
CletiusMaximus said:
My PT called it "dry needling."  He said its the same as acupuncture, but calling it "dry needling" allows Western practitioners to regulate it, provide certification, and pretend its something modern and not based on ancient asian medicine.  It didn't work for me.
PT did this on my leg/hamstring back when I had an injury and was going - said it would promote blood flow I think.  They only did it once - no clue if it helped - the first one going in kind of hurt but once the muscle relaxed it went fine.  Was a little sore the next day but nothing major.

 
Terminalxylem said:
A good example of a conventional medicine which has not been shown to be beneficial.
Are you saying they don't actually do anything or they just don't really help the muscle but rather mask the pain?  Since I've lost weight I haven't had to take them but back when I was heavy if I threw my back out or had spasms it was about the only thing that helped - beyond getting something really serious.

 
You're the third person with neck and back pain to say this (the other two were co-workers). Just ordered a Spoonk one from Amazon based on ratings and will provide my review once I've tried it a few times. I have neck and lower back issues - although not nearly as bad as some posters in this thread, when my lower back is bad it's pretty debilitating for me for anywhere from a few days to a few weeks until it gets better. 
I ordered the same one. The pain isn’t too bad. Goes away after a few minutes then you can feel your

muscles warm up and melt

 
i am a cervical spine sufferer with a minor in sciatica.  where is your pain and what medical steps have you tried?
My pain is primarily my right side. Some pain in the backside just below the belt line. Most of my discomfort is right front hip down the front into the groin area. 

 
Are you saying they don't actually do anything or they just don't really help the muscle but rather mask the pain?  Since I've lost weight I haven't had to take them but back when I was heavy if I threw my back out or had spasms it was about the only thing that helped - beyond getting something really serious.
They aren’t effective, at least not more than placebo. It’s been studied. 

 
I don't see the need to bag on chiros.  They do a lot of good for many people
A truly legit one is what everyone needs.

I see one in Miami. Have been seeing him since I was 15 years old in fact (1985). I live over an hour away but that's how good he is. He treats the entire Miami Heat team and also is on call for games. He literally adjusts players in the locker room when needed. And also treats Riley. 

I see him every 3 months to keep my nervous system balanced. I have never had to have back surgery despite having a herniated L5 since I was 28 years old (from years and years of baseball and tennis). He is the best. Anytime I have a flare up (nerve pain shooting down my legs or a thrown out back from over exertion as I coach baseball) I go see him and in one visit I will feel instant relief and be back on my feet within days. Coupled with ice and then Epson salt baths. 

No drugs, no shots. Just true holistic eastern medicine.

As to the OP.  Yes I sometimes have had acupuncture coupled with Rolfing. For those that do not know what Rolfing is. Intense deep tissue massage or 10 minutes concentrated to the problem area. Works wonders when you have an issue and your Chrio knows exactly where it is coming from.

Oh and for lower back pain suffers. Every pound you lose takes 10 pounds of pressure off your back. Also daily stretching will do wonders.

 
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Oh and for lower back pain suffers. Every pound you lose takes 10 pounds of pressure off your back. Also daily stretching will do wonders.
I know this is part of my problem. I’m 6’1” and I currently weigh about 210. Have been as much as 220 and in recent years I was down to 185ish. I feel much better when I am at 190 or below. I’m not obese but I can tell the difference those 10 to 20 pounds can make. I just like food to much! 

 
So I gave acupuncture a shot yesterday afternoon. It was with a new chiropractor that also offers acupuncture. I was interested in it for my sciatica which has only been managed by chiro treatments and I was hoping acupuncture might be more of an actual fix.

 I don’t really know what to think. I was anticipating needles more in the painful areas (hips, right buttock cheek, front of right leg) and I didn’t really get stuck there. Most of the needles were in my face and head.

I asked what I should anticipate after the session and the chiro said it differs with each person. I doubt I’ll do it again, because I like to see/feel something to be sure it’s doing something.

 
It’s been studied, and appears to help chronic back pain. Just make sure they sterilize their needles between uses.
Yes, it's been studied. Extensively, in fact. In far more than the one study you posted. And the quality of the studies varies a lot, from pretty sloppy studies, to rigorously controlled double-blinded trials. In every truly rigorous study that successfully eliminates any possible source of extrernal bias, all effects of acupuncture vanish to nothing greater than placebo. The trials which show effects beyond that have all been shown to be flawed during peer review.

 
Yes, it's been studied. Extensively, in fact. In far more than the one study you posted. And the quality of the studies varies a lot, from pretty sloppy studies, to rigorously controlled double-blinded trials. In every truly rigorous study that successfully eliminates any possible source of extrernal bias, all effects of acupuncture vanish to nothing greater than placebo. The trials which show effects beyond that have all been shown to be flawed during peer review.
That "one study" was a meta analysis of 33 randomized trials, many of them with sham controls (a big problem when studying acupuncture). It's the largest database I could find. I certainly didn't read each individual study, but it sounds like you feel qualified to discount every one of them. I'm not even sure it's possible to conduct a true double-blind, placebo-controlled RCT in any event.

I don't think acupuncture is a panacea by any means. That being said, it poses little risk and may be helpful for some indications. 

 
The risk it poses is the normalization of pseudoscience. This phenomenon has a body count.
So does regular science, unfortunately. I’ll take a benign placebo over malignant treatment just about every time.

I’d much rather someone try acupuncture than rely on muscle relaxers or opioids for chronic low back pain, for example.

 
They aren’t effective, at least not more than placebo. It’s been studied. 
Just to clarify one more time - are you saying they aren't effective at helping the pain, relaxing the muscles or both?  I have no reason to not believe you I'm just trying to understand.  For my part, when I've had back spasms I've experienced relief when taking them but I'm more than open to the idea that it's placebo.  And thankfully, I haven't had to take any in a while.

 
Just to clarify one more time - are you saying they aren't effective at helping the pain, relaxing the muscles or both?  I have no reason to not believe you I'm just trying to understand.  For my part, when I've had back spasms I've experienced relief when taking them but I'm more than open to the idea that it's placebo.  And thankfully, I haven't had to take any in a while.
There are no well designed studies showing muscle relaxers do a better job than placebo in alleviating chronic low back pain, the type of pain described by the OP.

Acute low back pain is another matter, as one muscle relaxer, cyclobenzaprine (Flexeril), has been shown to modestly alleviate discomfort for the first few days after a new injury. From a practical standpoint, it probably doesn't matter if they actually prevent muscle spasm or control pain through some other mechanism.

If they manage your pain and you don't have issues with side effects, great. But realize the supporting evidence is limited to acute pain treated with Flexeril, not any other drug. And there is addiction/abuse potential with cyclobenzaprine and many of the other meds billed as muscle relaxers.

 
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