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TheIronSheik

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For some reason this reminds me of a scene from The Holy Grail...

 

NBA: Well, this is the main hall. We're going to have all this knocked through and made into one big, uh, living room.

GUEST: There he is!

NBA: Oh, bloody hell.

[exciting music]

CHINA: Ha ha ha! Hey! Ha ha!

NBA: Hold it! Stop it! Hold it! Hold it! Hold it! Hold it! Hold it! Please!

CHINA: Sorry. Sorry. You see what I mean? I just get carried away. I'm really most awfully sorry. Sorry! Sorry, everyone.

GUEST #1: He's killed the best man!

GUESTS: [yelling]

NBA: Hold it! Hold it! Please! Hold it! This is Sir China from the Court of Communism, a very brave and influential knight, and my special guest here today.

CHINA: Hello.

GUEST: He killed my auntie!

GUESTS: [yelling]

NBA: Please! Please! This is supposed to be a happy occasion! Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who. We are here today to witness the union of two young people in the joyful bond of the holy wedlock. Unfortunately, one of them, my son Houston, has just fallen to his death.

GUESTS: Oh! Oh, no!

NBA: But I don't want to think I've lost a son, so much as... gained a daughter!

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, jvdesigns2002 said:

Oh for sure--and I think this is why the NBA is in a panic over this.   Effectively--their only real chance of growth or sustaining growth is to spread the popularity of their product into international markets.   There is no international market greater than China.  If this was any other country except for China--I think the NBA would easily just take the path of morality and just abandon that market and say "this is the right thing to do and there are plenty of bigger fish in the sea".   The only reason they are confused on what to do and what to say is because Morey effectively offended the biggest fish out there.  

This proves the NBA is not the "socially aware", not the "woke, league they proclaim to be.   NBA coaches and players who tweet about Russia, Trump, Global warming, social injustice are silent right now.    LeBron, Pops, Kerr,  China is in effect trying to do the same thing with the NBA as they are trying to do with the USA in general. Philly owner sends a chopper for Meek Mill to cater to his fans yet won`t even make one comment on China.   

Philly player were not allowed to comment on China last night, 2 Philly fans were thrown out of the arena for having "Free Hong Kong" signs.  Where is the support from the player and coaches?  China is one of the worst human rights violators on the planet, they silence dissidents, we complain about CNN and FOX, China has state run TV. They get one view..the governments view.  The only way you do business with Beijing is on their terms..not yours.

The NBA has the product not China..take a social stand and say screw China!

Edited by Da Guru
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1 minute ago, BroncoFreak_2K3 said:

League of Hypocrites 

Is this the one with Bizzaro Superman?

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Well we know who the real global superpower is... and it's not America.

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9 hours ago, GroveDiesel said:

They certainly could, but it would likely cost them a lot of money. I’ve read some sentiments of people thinking that the NBA has leverage because the Chinese people realize that the NBA product is by far the best basketball product in the world and that the people would be really angry if they no longer had access to NBA games anymore.

However, if the Chinese are good at anything, it's piracy. They'll find ways to watch if they want to. Nobody will make money off of it, but the gamed will be viewed.

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2 hours ago, BroncoFreak_2K3 said:

League of Hypocrites

Actually, the NBA could have avoided all of this by being hypocrites.

(i.e., if they had punished Morey and proclaimed that they don't support free speech.)

But because they expressed support for Morey's rights, China went ballistic.

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39 minutes ago, [scooter] said:

Actually, the NBA could have avoided all of this by being hypocrites.

(i.e., if they had punished Morey and proclaimed that they don't support free speech.)

But because they expressed support for Morey's rights, China went ballistic.

Yea it’s weird how people are framing this. I think the NBA’s response has missed, but it’s not like they are tossing support behind China either. 

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17 hours ago, Da Guru said:

This proves the NBA is not the "socially aware", not the "woke, league they proclaim to be.   NBA coaches and players who tweet about Russia, Trump, Global warming, social injustice are silent right now.    LeBron, Pops, Kerr,  China is in effect trying to do the same thing with the NBA as they are trying to do with the USA in general. Philly owner sends a chopper for Meek Mill to cater to his fans yet won`t even make one comment on China. 

These people are all frauds.  Every one of them.  

To be fair, there was no reason to take any of them seriously in the first place.  If I'm interested in global warming, why would I seek the counsel of a former point guard when there are bona fide experts out there happy to share their knowledge with me?

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13 hours ago, Capella said:

Yea it’s weird how people are framing this. I think the NBA’s response has missed, but it’s not like they are tossing support behind China either. 

By not condemning something, when you historically do not show hesitation to show condemnation for ideas you disagree with, shows your tacit consent to their ideas.

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25 minutes ago, Bull Dozier said:

By not condemning something, when you historically do not show hesitation to show condemnation for ideas you disagree with, shows your tacit consent to their ideas.

Yes.  When Ted Cruz and AOC both think you've done something wrong, you've really upset the apple cart.

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3 minutes ago, TheIronSheik said:

Yes.  When Ted Cruz and AOC both think you've done something wrong, you've really upset the apple cart.

Here I go again.

Really I just see politicians jumping at an opportunity to gain.

Were these politicians railing together before this tweet from random NBA dude?  Are they currently railing against any/all businesses and products doing business in China?  

Or is it just the NBA, just now, because now AOC and Ted Cruz can make it on to SportsCenter?

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38 minutes ago, Bull Dozier said:

By not condemning something, when you historically do not show hesitation to show condemnation for ideas you disagree with, shows your tacit consent to their ideas.

I get this but do you happen to own an iPhone or literally any electronic device? 

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2 minutes ago, Capella said:

I get this but do you happen to own an iPhone or literally any electronic device? 

Exactly.  I bet Ted Cruz and AOC are tweeting from theirs as well.

Edited by matuski
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Let’s condemn China and be mad at the nba for not standing up to them, they type out on their electronic device that they are able to afford because it was made for slave wages in China. 

Edited by Capella
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19 minutes ago, matuski said:

Here I go again.

Really I just see politicians jumping at an opportunity to gain.

Were these politicians railing together before this tweet from random NBA dude?  Are they currently railing against any/all businesses and products doing business in China?  

Or is it just the NBA, just now, because now AOC and Ted Cruz can make it on to SportsCenter?

The problem isn't the NBA working with China.  That's fine.  Lots of companies do it.  The problem starts when Americans lose their rights because China tells companies to do things.  When Americans are no longer allowed the freedom of free speech because China doesn't want us to speak, the NBA needs to tell China to go pound sand.  That's the issue.  

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1 minute ago, TheIronSheik said:

The problem isn't the NBA working with China.  That's fine.  Lots of companies do it.  The problem starts when Americans lose their rights because China tells companies to do things.  When Americans are no longer allowed the freedom of free speech because China doesn't want us to speak, the NBA needs to tell China to go pound sand.  That's the issue.  

I'm not keeping up with the specifics... and pardon my cynicism, but I go back to the same question.

Is it just the NBA?  Is it just now?  Without bothering to come to come up with specific examples, I have to assume MANY MANY companies with much larger footprints than the NBA have caved and modified their behavior and speech to keep their $ in China flowing.  Not just over Hong Kong, not just now - but over any number of things, since forever.

I mean China didn't just now start being China.

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@TheIronSheik

I pretty much agree with your position and sentiment.  I just think this milk was spilled long ago and now is a weird time to cry over it.

And of course I find it more suspect still when you see politicians jumping on the bandwagon.

 

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To go further into my larger complaint, I find myself participating in a thread about the NBA and China... because I tried to watch highlights on sportcenter.  :bag:

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25 minutes ago, matuski said:

I'm not keeping up with the specifics... and pardon my cynicism, but I go back to the same question.

Is it just the NBA?  Is it just now?  Without bothering to come to come up with specific examples, I have to assume MANY MANY companies with much larger footprints than the NBA have caved and modified their behavior and speech to keep their $ in China flowing.  Not just over Hong Kong, not just now - but over any number of things, since forever.

I mean China didn't just now start being China.

I think it's always been known that China might have a say in certain things.  And that was kind of frowned upon by citizens but done by companies anyway.  It's almost been like a running joke.  But with this situation, they made an American citizen apologize for his free speech.  It was kind of like the straw that broke the camel's back.  But in this case, the straw was a telephone pole.

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1 hour ago, Capella said:

I get this but do you happen to own an iPhone or literally any electronic device? 

Explain how that is relevant.  I'm not the one who is being the hypocrite sellout.

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3 hours ago, Capella said:

Let’s condemn China and be mad at the nba for not standing up to them, they type out on their electronic device that they are able to afford because it was made for slave wages in China. 

Then we all have to stop acting like we are getting more woke as a society.

We are only woke when it is convenient to be woke. To make money, to get elected, for popular public opinion.

We all go into  a mob type rage over a single killing in a country a 350 million people.  Yet China has over a million people (Muslims and Gays)  in reeducation and thought conversion camps, that is not even talking about the numbers in sweat shops and we still beg to do business with them. Trump was basically correct yesterday when he said China has basically screwed the world since 2001 but we want cheap goods so we turn our heads.

The bottom line is we all have to realize the NBA, NFL are big business.  The are socially active when they are forced to be. Their activism is not real, it is to make more $$$$.  Do you really think the NFL gives a dam about breast cancer?  Oh I am sure some individuals do but they have made a living out of selling Pink apparel and donating very little back. 2 fans were kicked out of the Philly game for having a "Free Hong Kong" sign.

We all wear our Nike shoes and quarter zips and whatever but we really don`t want to know where they come from and how they are produced. We just want to see a nice shirt or shoes on the rack at Dickssports.  

My wife quit eating meat 4 years ago because I took her to a butcher shop in Detroit where they actually slaughter and sell on site.  This place sells to all the local supermarkets and restaurants too.  Well when you walk it is very cold and there is an mistakable smell and the animals are actually hanging and being butcher.   My wife ran out crying.  I said you just want to see a nice steak wrapped and sitting in the meat counter but you don`t want to know where it actually comes from. Same with Nike and other products.

I have a feeling we would all feel the same way about many of the products we consume from China and I am as guilty as anyone.

I remember one time when Michael Jordan was asked why he does not speak out more on politics and he said. "Hey Republicans buy Nikes too, I am here to make money and to sell more product not to turn people off"  I respected Jordan for that as he was at least being honest.

Edited by Da Guru
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1 hour ago, Bull Dozier said:

Explain how that is relevant.  I'm not the one who is being the hypocrite sellout.

Of course you are. You take advantage of China’s slave labor. We all do. 

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I’m not backing the nba here. They mismanaged this badly. But the whole I can’t believe the nba is getting in bed with China to make money shtick when we all use them to our financial advantage is silly.  

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54 minutes ago, Da Guru said:

My wife quit eating meat 4 years ago because I took her to a butcher shop in Detroit where they actually slaughter and sell on site.  This place sells to all the local supermarkets and restaurants too.  Well when you walk it is very cold and there is an mistakable smell and the animals are actually hanging and being butcher.   My wife ran out crying.  I said you just want to see a nice steak wrapped and sitting in the meat counter but you don`t want to know where it actually comes from.

:mellow:

why would you do this?

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5 minutes ago, Capella said:

I’m not backing the nba here. They mismanaged this badly. But the whole I can’t believe the nba is getting in bed with China to make money shtick when we all use them to our financial advantage is silly.  

That's not the point at all, though.  No one is mad because we have things made in China.  They are mad because China told an American business that they need to shut down the freedom of speech.  AND THEY DID SO WITHOUT QUESTION.  This entire argument is about China telling Americans what they can and can't say.  It has nothing to do with things being made in China.

 

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8 minutes ago, Capella said:

Of course you are. You take advantage of China’s slave labor. We all do. 

Our 401ks love Cheap Chinese labor

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Just now, TheIronSheik said:

They are mad because China told an American business that they need to shut down the freedom of speech.  AND THEY DID SO WITHOUT QUESTION

This isn’t the 1st time it’s happened and I suspect it won’t be the last 

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Just now, HellToupee said:

This isn’t the 1st time it’s happened and I suspect it won’t be the last 

When has it happened before?

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5 minutes ago, TheIronSheik said:

That's not the point at all, though.  No one is mad because we have things made in China.  They are mad because China told an American business that they need to shut down the freedom of speech.  AND THEY DID SO WITHOUT QUESTION.  This entire argument is about China telling Americans what they can and can't say.  It has nothing to do with things being made in China.

 

The point is whatever people want it to be for their particular narrative. 

Edited by Capella
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5 minutes ago, TheIronSheik said:

When has it happened before?

Happens with movies , dialogue and scenes get changed to appease China

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18 minutes ago, Capella said:

Of course you are. You take advantage of China’s slave labor. We all do. 

Previously had a Moto cell phone, but they are no longer made in America either.  iPhone is an American company that has its product built elsewhere.  Please tell me what cell phone I can choose to own that meets the standard?

Or, in order to tell the NBA that they are sellouts, I have to choose to not have a cell phone at all?  Is that really the requirement you think is logical?

Now, I get what you are saying, that people often are more slactivists and actual activists, but thinking someone has to have a hard line of never owning a Chinese made product in order to be able to rip China, when there are no alternatives, is a little absurd.

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I think it's fair to call the NBA "sellouts". I'm not sure if it's fair to call them "hypocrites".

Just because you don't stand behind every single social cause, that doesn't make you a hypocrite. I have no problem with the NBA picking and choosing which causes to support, and how far they want to go in terms of that support.

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40 minutes ago, TheIronSheik said:

That's not the point at all, though.  No one is mad because we have things made in China.  They are mad because China told an American business that they need to shut down the freedom of speech.  AND THEY DID SO WITHOUT QUESTION.  This entire argument is about China telling Americans what they can and can't say.  It has nothing to do with things being made in China.

This isn't really true, though. Silver came out in support of Morey's free speech rights, as did many other people within the NBA. (Meanwhile, China is actually mad at Silver for not punishing Morey.)

The NBA has removed political signs at some games, but when have they ever permitted political signs?

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45 minutes ago, HellToupee said:

Happens with movies , dialogue and scenes get changed to appease China

Again, that's different.  That's not telling someone they can't say something and then making them apologize to China for saying it.

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13 minutes ago, [scooter] said:

This isn't really true, though. Silver came out in support of Morey's free speech rights, as did many other people within the NBA. (Meanwhile, China is actually mad at Silver for not punishing Morey.)

The NBA has removed political signs at some games, but when have they ever permitted political signs?

Silver only came out after the backlash started from the NBA distancing themselves from the tweet.  And then the NBA issued a statement that turned out to say one thing in English and another thing in Chinese.  

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Just now, TheIronSheik said:
14 minutes ago, [scooter] said:

This isn't really true, though. Silver came out in support of Morey's free speech rights, as did many other people within the NBA. (Meanwhile, China is actually mad at Silver for not punishing Morey.)

The NBA has removed political signs at some games, but when have they ever permitted political signs?

Silver only came out after the backlash started from the NBA distancing themselves from the tweet.  And then the NBA issued a statement that turned out to say one thing in English and another thing in Chinese.  

What does Silver's timing have to do with it? You said the NBA shut down freedom of speech without question. I'm pointing out that the NBA did, in fact, question China (by supporting Morey's free speech rights, by refusing to apologize, and by refusing to punish Morey).

Also, the NBA didn't technically shut down Morey's freedom of speech. He voluntarily deleted the tweet after he realized how much trouble it caused.

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2 minutes ago, [scooter] said:

What does Silver's timing have to do with it? You said the NBA shut down freedom of speech without question. I'm pointing out that the NBA did, in fact, question China (by supporting Morey's free speech rights, by refusing to apologize, and by refusing to punish Morey).

Also, the NBA didn't technically shut down Morey's freedom of speech. He voluntarily deleted the tweet after he realized how much trouble it caused.

He was told to apologize.  He deleted the tweet and apologized.  They even had Harden apologize to China because of the tweet.  Once everyone in America started to bash the NBA, Silver came out and said he supported Moray's right to tweet what he wanted.  Too late.  You already chastised him and made him apologize.  Silver was doing damage control.  The same way they put out the statement saying it was a mistake, in English. But in Chinese calling it something else that admonished the Rockets GM.  

 

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13 minutes ago, TheIronSheik said:
18 minutes ago, [scooter] said:

What does Silver's timing have to do with it? You said the NBA shut down freedom of speech without question. I'm pointing out that the NBA did, in fact, question China (by supporting Morey's free speech rights, by refusing to apologize, and by refusing to punish Morey).

Also, the NBA didn't technically shut down Morey's freedom of speech. He voluntarily deleted the tweet after he realized how much trouble it caused.

He was told to apologize.  He deleted the tweet and apologized.  They even had Harden apologize to China because of the tweet.  Once everyone in America started to bash the NBA, Silver came out and said he supported Moray's right to tweet what he wanted.  Too late.  You already chastised him and made him apologize.  Silver was doing damage control.  The same way they put out the statement saying it was a mistake, in English. But in Chinese calling it something else that admonished the Rockets GM.  

When did Silver chastise Morey prior to supporting his right to free speech? Where did Silver make Morey apologize? (I read that the apology was induced by Houston's owner, not by Silver or the NBA.)

Seems like you are misrepresenting what actually happened here.

Edited by [scooter]

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In this day and age, I think China has made everyone kinda forget they are Communist.  Pointing this out seems an issue.   

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2 minutes ago, Chemical X said:

In this day and age, I think China has made everyone kinda forget they are Communist.  Pointing this out seems an issue.   

I've just been told you need to delete this post.  Also, please apologize for calling China "communists."  

Thanks,
Adam Silver

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1 hour ago, [scooter] said:

I think it's fair to call the NBA "sellouts". I'm not sure if it's fair to call them "hypocrites".

Just because you don't stand behind every single social cause, that doesn't make you a hypocrite. I have no problem with the NBA picking and choosing which causes to support, and how far they want to go in terms of that support.

Here's where I think the NBA is hypocritical, and I will acknowledge I am lumping the comish, coaches, and players all together when I say "the NBA" (disagree with that lumping together if you like, but that's the way I look at it).

Steph Curry and Steve Kerr do not hesitate to speak out about social issues any other time.  They have spoken about race, crime, and police brutality.  Yet Kerr won't comment on China because it is complicated, and Curry said he doesn't fully understand the history of China that lead to their current social structure and thus can't comment.  As if there is some excuse for China to now be a brutal totalitarian government?  That's hypocritical.  Knowing American history is not a requisite to be able to acknowledge what is wrong is society today.  Also, while knowing our history, or China's history may help one understand why their respective societies are where they are, there is nothing in either that excuses their respective ills.

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1 hour ago, [scooter] said:

What does Silver's timing have to do with it? You said the NBA shut down freedom of speech without question. I'm pointing out that the NBA did, in fact, question China (by supporting Morey's free speech rights, by refusing to apologize, and by refusing to punish Morey).

Also, the NBA didn't technically shut down Morey's freedom of speech. He voluntarily deleted the tweet after he realized how much trouble it caused.

Apparently the NBA published a statement in Mandarin that was phrased more apologetically than the English version.  They claimed the English version is the "official" statement, but didn't exactly disavow the other version either.  Nate Duncan had a good rant about this on his podcast earlier this week.

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I'm no Trump supporter, but I've always gotten annoyed with seeing Kerr's political stances. 

He is a darling because he has been lucky enough to have played with MJ, Robinson and Duncan and coached Curry, Klay and Durant.  He is listened to not because he has proven his political acumen, but because he is a good 3-pt shooter and has been associated with some of the best basketball players in history.  Yet somehow he has been promoted as some kind of political commentator since he mocks Trump and espouses the political opinion du jour.

As a result, I'm kind of glad to see him taking some heat for not being so outspoken when it might actually cost him something.  I know that his dad died when he was young and he has had some major health issues, but I don't think that means he has suffered any more than anyone else and deserves any more respect than Joe Schmo from the middle class.  In fact, I'd say his life would be considered other worldly and bizarre to the vast majority of us.  To give him such a platform over politics was never fair to begin with, but he seemed to embrace it, so he is equally as deserving of the criticism as much as the kudos.

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13 minutes ago, Jayrod said:

I'm no Trump supporter, but I've always gotten annoyed with seeing Kerr's political stances. 

He is a darling because he has been lucky enough to have played with MJ, Robinson and Duncan and coached Curry, Klay and Durant.  He is listened to not because he has proven his political acumen, but because he is a good 3-pt shooter and has been associated with some of the best basketball players in history.  Yet somehow he has been promoted as some kind of political commentator since he mocks Trump and espouses the political opinion du jour.

As a result, I'm kind of glad to see him taking some heat for not being so outspoken when it might actually cost him something.  I know that his dad died when he was young and he has had some major health issues, but I don't think that means he has suffered any more than anyone else and deserves any more respect than Joe Schmo from the middle class.  In fact, I'd say his life would be considered other worldly and bizarre to the vast majority of us.  To give him such a platform over politics was never fair to begin with, but he seemed to embrace it, so he is equally as deserving of the criticism as much as the kudos.

His father being assassinated by Islamic jihadists (who took credit) in the 80s may also lend some apathy into hearing his political views a bit more than others, perhaps?

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4 minutes ago, comfortably numb said:

His father being assassinated by Islamic jihadists (who took credit) in the 80s may also lend some apathy into hearing his political views a bit more than others, perhaps?

What?  Why?  

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24 minutes ago, Jayrod said:

I'm no Trump supporter, but I've always gotten annoyed with seeing Kerr's political stances. 

He is a darling because he has been lucky enough to have played with MJ, Robinson and Duncan and coached Curry, Klay and Durant.  He is listened to not because he has proven his political acumen, but because he is a good 3-pt shooter and has been associated with some of the best basketball players in history.  Yet somehow he has been promoted as some kind of political commentator since he mocks Trump and espouses the political opinion du jour.

As a result, I'm kind of glad to see him taking some heat for not being so outspoken when it might actually cost him something.  I know that his dad died when he was young and he has had some major health issues, but I don't think that means he has suffered any more than anyone else and deserves any more respect than Joe Schmo from the middle class.  In fact, I'd say his life would be considered other worldly and bizarre to the vast majority of us.  To give him such a platform over politics was never fair to begin with, but he seemed to embrace it, so he is equally as deserving of the criticism as much as the kudos.

This goes too far, IMO.  He has every right to speak out on political issues (that's kind of the whole point of this conversation).  He also has to accept that it looks real bad when he, someone generally not shy about providing political commentary, avoids comment by claiming not to be educated enough on the China issue.  I'm pretty confident that he knows at least as much about China's abusive human rights practices than he does any number of other subjects he opines on.

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Money justifies all means. It’s been obvious for a long time, why pretend to care now?

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