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TheIronSheik

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1 minute ago, jvdesigns2002 said:

Bro--I am the furthest thing from confrontational at all--and in all seriousness--I'm worried about your memory.  I made a post on the last page--and you are the one that engaged in a dialogue with me back and forth.  There was no stalking--just conversation on both ends.   I honestly have no idea where you are getting this from--and it seems to me like you are completely mis-remembering the entire dialogue we had since yesterday.   I've gone back and forth with Cap a few times to--but that is the beauty of this board--you discuss--you agree sometimes--you disagree sometimes---and you move on.  I might not agree with him all the time--but I 100% appreciate him and his contributions to these forums.  With that said---I have never seen a poster do a complete 180 on a take, get called out for it--and then accuse the person they are having a discussion as being a stalker. In honesty--I take offense to even the notion of being labeled that.   In any case--let's just both drop the dialogue before this gets any more weird.  Enjoy your day.  

Ok

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2 minutes ago, jvdesigns2002 said:

Bro--I am the furthest thing from confrontational at all--and in all seriousness--I'm worried about your memory.  I made a post on the last page--and you are the one that engaged in a dialogue with me back and forth.  There was no stalking--just conversation on both ends.   I honestly have no idea where you are getting this from--and it seems to me like you are completely mis-remembering the entire dialogue we had since yesterday.   I've gone back and forth with Cap a few times to--but that is the beauty of this board--you discuss--you agree sometimes--you disagree sometimes---and you move on.  I might not agree with him all the time--but I 100% appreciate him and his contributions to these forums.  With that said---I have never seen a poster do a complete 180 on a take, get called out for it--and then accuse the person they are having a discussion as being a stalker. In honesty--I take offense to even the notion of being labeled that.   In any case--let's just both drop the dialogue before this gets any more weird.  Enjoy your day.  

Although, out of curiosity, what was the 180 I took on what take?  Super interested to know this before we part ways. 

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1 minute ago, TheIronSheik said:

Although, out of curiosity, what was the 180 I took on what take?  Super interested to know this before we part ways. 

Honestly GB--i don't want to go there. Just read the last page where we started our dialogue and read down from there.   That would be the best way to leave things.  

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Just now, jvdesigns2002 said:

Honestly GB--i don't want to go there. Just read the last page where we started our dialogue and read down from there.   That would be the best way to leave things.  

No.  I'd really like to know what my 180 was.  

I originally said he was a moron.  I stand by that.

I originally said he was not a great entrepreneur.  I stand by that.

I originally said he was not the best entrepreneur ever.  I stand by that.

These were pretty much all of my takes.  And I stand by all of them.  

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1 minute ago, TheIronSheik said:

No.  I'd really like to know what my 180 was.  

I originally said he was a moron.  I stand by that.

I originally said he was not a great entrepreneur.  I stand by that.

I originally said he was not the best entrepreneur ever.  I stand by that.

These were pretty much all of my takes.  And I stand by all of them.  

I stand by what I said to--and its all up there for consumption if you want to read it.  There is no need for us to repeat things. 

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Just now, jvdesigns2002 said:

I stand by what I said to--and its all up there for consumption if you want to read it.  There is no need for us to repeat things. 

Ok.  So to be clear, you're just making crap up.  Got it.  I thought that's what was happening but wanted to be sure.

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2 minutes ago, TheIronSheik said:

Ok.  So to be clear, you're just making crap up.  Got it.  I thought that's what was happening but wanted to be sure.

Bro---you are getting really weird. Our entire conversation from yesterday is up and documented.  I'm referring you to read that. Please either re-read the conversation or let it go.  Seriously.  

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1 minute ago, jvdesigns2002 said:

Bro---you are getting really weird. Our entire conversation from yesterday is up and documented.  I'm referring you to read that. Please either re-read the conversation or let it go.  Seriously.  

I know it is.  And at no point have I ever wavered from my original post.  Even right up to this very moment.  And that's cool.  We can be done now.  I just wanted to see if you'd throw out actual evidence of me doing a complete 180 or if you'd just say, "You can see it in the thread."  That's all I needed to see.  Just want to make sure if anyone is still reading this drivel they can see what you're saying.  I like to get it all in writing.  You know, for the historians.  :thumbup:

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14 hours ago, Nigel said:

Wow, last couple pages are awful. 

Agreed.  I honestly thought a thread about Americans choosing China over democracy wouldn't have been such a flashpoint conversation.  

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On 10/16/2019 at 8:59 AM, Premier said:

I think it was both about money and keeping people safe. He definitely has a point about that. ESPN had a huge story yesterday from some reporter on the scene that detailed how nervous both teams were with the situation. Both teams met together to come up with game plans on how to deal with the situation over there. 

If a simple re-tweet about supporting Hong Kong (that was in no way inflammatory) was enough to put the players in danger of being harmed by the Chinese government, I think that tells us all we need to know about whether they should have even been there doing business with them in the first place. And if the players were aware enough to know that something as innocuous as that could jeopardize their safety, then that tells us all we need to know about whether the players knew exactly who they were doing business with.

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5 minutes ago, GroveDiesel said:

If a simple re-tweet about supporting Hong Kong (that was in no way inflammatory) was enough to put the players in danger of being harmed by the Chinese government, I think that tells us all we need to know about whether they should have even been there doing business with them in the first place. And if the players were aware enough to know that something as innocuous as that could jeopardize their safety, then that tells us all we need to know about whether the players knew exactly who they were doing business with.

The players were there as the teams (Brooklyn, LAL) were on schedule to play each other over there. If you mean individual players doing business there, I agree. 

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5 minutes ago, GroveDiesel said:

If a simple re-tweet about supporting Hong Kong (that was in no way inflammatory) was enough to put the players in danger of being harmed by the Chinese government, I think that tells us all we need to know about whether they should have even been there doing business with them in the first place. And if the players were aware enough to know that something as innocuous as that could jeopardize their safety, then that tells us all we need to know about whether the players knew exactly who they were doing business with.

The only "harm" that was coming was financial.  James knows that if he says anything bad, not only does he lose Nike money, but he will lose Space Jam 2 money.  That's a big hit.  Of course, when you're a billionaire, that big hit doesn't really make a dent.  

But there is zero chance China harms a US citizen in this situation.  Zero.  Mainly because they are high profile.  Now, would China maybe arrest an average US citizen for doing something like this?  Possibly.  And they would hold them for a day or so, treat them very well, and eventually release them.  China is not North Korea.  China is still our quote/unquote friend.  

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6 minutes ago, Premier said:

The players were there as the teams (Brooklyn, LAL) were on schedule to play each other over there. If you mean individual players doing business there, I agree. 

There is zero chance the NBA would have punished a player for refusing to go because they didn’t feel safe.

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28 minutes ago, GroveDiesel said:

There is zero chance the NBA would have punished a player for refusing to go because they didn’t feel safe.

It happened (morey’s tweet) while they were there I believe. 

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14 minutes ago, Premier said:

It happened (morey’s tweet) while they were there I believe. 

Well, if that little tweet was enough to put their safety in jeopardy and Lebron didn’t know that ahead of time, then I guess he wasn’t educated on the situation at hand and he never stopped and considered the consequences.

He’s equivalent to these celebs that get paid boatloads to do private performances by brutal dictators and then when called out for it act surprised to find out that they were buddying up with a brutal dictator.

Edited by GroveDiesel
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2 minutes ago, GroveDiesel said:

Well, if that little tweet was enough to put their safety in jeopardy and Lebron didn’t know that ahead of time, then I guess he wasn’t educated on the situation at hand and he never stopped and considered the consequences.

It is LeBron’s fault he didn’t know that Morey was going to send that tweet out and therefore he didn’t pay attention to the consequences of playing in NBA-mandated games in China? Wut :loco: 

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19 minutes ago, Premier said:

It is LeBron’s fault he didn’t know that Morey was going to send that tweet out and therefore he didn’t pay attention to the consequences of playing in NBA-mandated games in China? Wut :loco: 

It's not his fault.  But after that tweet, why wouldn't he stick up for Mory's right for freedom of speech?  

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10 minutes ago, Premier said:

It is LeBron’s fault he didn’t know that Morey was going to send that tweet out and therefore he didn’t pay attention to the consequences of playing in NBA-mandated games in China? Wut :loco: 

So Morey should have known that tweeting that out could put the players’ safety in jeopardy, but the players are good to plead ignorance that China is so horrible that a mere tweet could put them in jeopardy?

So is the argument that LeBron is just a player and should be expected to be ignorant as to how awful China is? Or is it that he knew how awful they are but went knowing that the slightest thing could cause the Chinese government to hurt him because the NBA forced him to go and there was no way out?

Because both of those possibilities seem unlikely to me.

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2 minutes ago, TheIronSheik said:

It's not his fault.  But after that tweet, why wouldn't he stick up for Mory's right for freedom of speech?  

I don’t disagree. I probably wouldn’t expect that while being potentially held up in China but he could have when he returned to the states. 

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By the way, LeBron is no longer in China and he still hasn't said that China was wrong.  Is he still in danger at this point?

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Just now, TheIronSheik said:

By the way, LeBron is no longer in China and he still hasn't said that China was wrong.  Is he still in danger at this point?

Lol no. His comments when back in the states were wrong. I can see why he was annoyed because of the situation it put everybody in, but he still didn’t handle that well. 

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Just now, Premier said:

I don’t disagree. I probably wouldn’t expect that while being potentially held up in China but he could have when he returned to the states. 

But this is the whole point.  The news conference came when he was back in the States.  

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3 minutes ago, GroveDiesel said:

So Morey should have known that tweeting that out could put the players’ safety in jeopardy, but the players are good to plead ignorance that China is so horrible that a mere tweet could put them in jeopardy?

So is the argument that LeBron is just a player and should be expected to be ignorant as to how awful China is? Or is it that he knew how awful they are but went knowing that the slightest thing could cause the Chinese government to hurt him because the NBA forced him to go and there was no way out?

Because both of those possibilities seem unlikely to me.

The players were in China because they had to be. It wasn’t a summer tour where individuals go to peddle their sneakers. I don’t know what your point is here. The CBA mandates the teams and players follow the schedule outlined for them. 

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Just now, TheIronSheik said:

But this is the whole point.  The news conference came when he was back in the States.  

I know. What he said back here was probably a low for him. I don’t think anybody had defended the text of his actual comments. I thought we were just talking his business skills lol

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1 minute ago, Premier said:

Lol no. His comments when back in the states were wrong. I can see why he was annoyed because of the situation it put everybody in, but he still didn’t handle that well. 

Then I don't understand what you guys are arguing.  The whole second part of this thread was about James' comments on Monday when he was safely in the US and he was still saying Morey was wrong and that Morey wasn't educated on the whole China situation.  When I called James a moron, it was about these comments.  It wasn't even that crazy for me to say that as almost every news outlet was saying the same thing.  Hell, even the Undefeated had an article about James missing a chance to help people while instead choosing money.  

Where are we having a disconnect?  Because I feel like we're saying the same thing at this point.

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4 minutes ago, TheIronSheik said:

Then I don't understand what you guys are arguing.  The whole second part of this thread was about James' comments on Monday when he was safely in the US and he was still saying Morey was wrong and that Morey wasn't educated on the whole China situation.  When I called James a moron, it was about these comments.  It wasn't even that crazy for me to say that as almost every news outlet was saying the same thing.  Hell, even the Undefeated had an article about James missing a chance to help people while instead choosing money.  

Where are we having a disconnect?  Because I feel like we're saying the same thing at this point.

I think I jumped in on the he wasn’t an entrepreneur part, which is an extremely dumb sentence to write out. 
 

I definitely did not agree with his comments about Morey. Although after reading the ESPN article I can see how being over there ended up making everybody involved nervous. 

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If LeBron just came out and said I agree with Morey’s comments but I wish he would have saved it for when all the teams were out of the country I doubt there would have been any blowback. 

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13 minutes ago, Premier said:

I think I jumped in on the he wasn’t an entrepreneur part, which is an extremely dumb sentence to write out. 
 

I definitely did not agree with his comments about Morey. Although after reading the ESPN article I can see how being over there ended up making everybody involved nervous. 

Ok, fair enough.  I can understand that you came in midway through.  But my entrepreneur part was not me saying he wasn't one.  JV wrote that he was possibly the best entrepreneur of all time.  And that his proof was that he was able to become a great basketball player.

I'm not saying he isn't an entrepreneur, as in he owns businesses.  The debate stemmed from calling him the best of all time.  If you own a successful business, no matter how big or small, you are an entrepreneur, pretty much.  My argument was that him playing basketball does not make him an entrepreneur.  Also, him taking the millions of dollars he made and investing it into other businesses does not make him the GOAT of entrepreneurs.  

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17 minutes ago, TheIronSheik said:

Ok, fair enough.  I can understand that you came in midway through.  But my entrepreneur part was not me saying he wasn't one.  JV wrote that he was possibly the best entrepreneur of all time.  And that his proof was that he was able to become a great basketball player.

I'm not saying he isn't an entrepreneur, as in he owns businesses.  The debate stemmed from calling him the best of all time.  If you own a successful business, no matter how big or small, you are an entrepreneur, pretty much.  My argument was that him playing basketball does not make him an entrepreneur.  Also, him taking the millions of dollars he made and investing it into other businesses does not make him the GOAT of entrepreneurs.  

:hifive:  let’s just chalk all this up to us all being people who like to argue too much. Lol. I think it is reasonable for everybody to have a different opinion on what he really does without any of us really knowing what he does. 

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9 minutes ago, Premier said:

:hifive:  let’s just chalk all this up to us all being people who like to argue too much. Lol. I think it is reasonable for everybody to have a different opinion on what he really does without any of us really knowing what he does. 

And that's fair.  I never claimed to know what he does.  But I think even with the limited knowledge we all have, it's pretty safe to say he's not the best entrepreneur ever.  I mean, that's not a stretch, right?

And as for us, I've said it before, I'm not trying to hold any grudges or hate anyone over the internet.  Too old for that crap.  I've known you long enough that I know who you are.  You can be a doosh sometimes on this board.  I'm sure people say the same thing about me.  It is what it is.  

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23 minutes ago, TheIronSheik said:

And that's fair.  I never claimed to know what he does.  But I think even with the limited knowledge we all have, it's pretty safe to say he's not the best entrepreneur ever.  I mean, that's not a stretch, right?

And as for us, I've said it before, I'm not trying to hold any grudges or hate anyone over the internet.  Too old for that crap.  I've known you long enough that I know who you are.  You can be a doosh sometimes on this board.  I'm sure people say the same thing about me.  It is what it is.  

I agree. Not the best, I wouldn’t say that. 
 

Also, sorry for being a tool. I’ve tried to be nicer but sometimes it still comes out. I’ve been around here too long (deep sigh) and am too old to be getting in arguments. I have a kid for god’s sake, have to make sure he never finds this place before the diabetes gets me. 
 

/group hug 

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Can somebody please copy and paste where I ever said that Lebron was the greatest entrepreneur ever?  I said that he is considered to be one of the greatest entrepreneurs out there ---and that is not wrong.  I am getting tired of having my opinion mislabeled and misrepresented by other members of the forum.   I am not the one that changed my stance or tune in the last day or two as the last couple of pages in this thread clearly demonstrates (for anybody that actually has reading comprehension skills). 

Forbes ranks him as the 39th richest entrepreneur under the age of 40 on the planet--they dont rank him as the 39th richest athlete. RIch athletes can absolutely be entrepreneurs too regardless of what people claim in this thread:

 

https://healthy.ceoblognation.com/2018/07/04/lebron-james-the-ceo-entrepreneur-business-man/

https://www.cleveland.com/cavs/2016/12/lebron_james_39th_richest_entr.html

These are just 2 articles that I found in a matter of seconds that show that he is considered by most to be more than just a great athlete--but also a great entrepreneur.   The dude got great at a sport that he learned as a child and managed to transform it into a monster empire that includes endorsements, starting and investing in businesses,  and massive philanthropic projects and donations. If you are telling me that one does that without having great entrepreneurial skills--I absolutey disagree with that.   That is all.  

Edited by jvdesigns2002

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1 hour ago, Premier said:

If LeBron just came out and said I agree with Morey’s comments but I wish he would have saved it for when all the teams were out of the country I doubt there would have been any blowback. 

Agreed. I think that’s sorta the crux of the issue. I think he didn’t say that because I think the $ is more of an issue to him than any safety concerns were. Maybe I’m wrong, but that’s what I get out of it knowing what we know of the story at this point.

And I do think Lebron is a very good entrepreneur and extremely calculating. He has done an excellent job crafting an image. I doubt too many people would argue that his decision to go to the Lakers wasn’t driven largely by future business/financial opportunities. He has invested wisely and isn’t a guy that I would ever expect to hear about going broke because of wild investments or spending. He has been vocal about certain issues while also creating business opportunities using concern for those issues.

I think it would be demeaning to Lebron to think that he wasn’t aware of exactly who the Chinese government is, the opportunities of the Chinese market, and the ethical implications of being involved with China. I also think it would be demeaning to Lebron to assume that he meant anything other than what he said.

Perhaps there was a very credible threat to their safety that has not been reported and Lebron really was scared. If that was the case, I hope that it comes out as that would be huge news and would certainly change the narrative a bit. 
 

After reading this article, I absolutely agree with Lebron that asking the players to answer questions while the league wasn’t was totally unfair and should never have been requested of them. On the other hand, it’s hard for me to read the article and not think that Lebron’s primary concern throughout this was financial.

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1 hour ago, Premier said:

If LeBron just came out and said I agree with Morey’s comments but I wish he would have saved it for when all the teams were out of the country I doubt there would have been any blowback. 

Anybody that says this becomes a public enemy of China.  Unfortunately when you deal with a communist regime that is the risk you take.  Don't cross them or you lose everything you have in their country since they control everything.

LeBron only wears "I Can't Breathe" shirts when it is good for his brand.  But say anything that risks his bank account?  No comment.

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7 minutes ago, Jayrod said:

Anybody that says this becomes a public enemy of China.  Unfortunately when you deal with a communist regime that is the risk you take.  Don't cross them or you lose everything you have in their country since they control everything.

LeBron only wears "I Can't Breathe" shirts when it is good for his brand.  But say anything that risks his bank account?  No comment.

I don’t disagree. It was a misstep for sure. 
 

edit: Lebron speaking out about politics could certainly hurt his bank account here too. Look at all the people saying they won’t buy his shoes etc. So I’m not defending him but it isn’t black and white either. 

Edited by Premier

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Does anybody feel the specifics of Morey's tweet were wrong?  Not the timing, not about money...just the basic content.  Anyone?

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29 minutes ago, trader jake said:

Does anybody feel the specifics of Morey's tweet were wrong?  Not the timing, not about money...just the basic content.  Anyone?

Not at all.   Even with our slight points of contention--I think we are all pretty much in agreement that the content of Morey's tweet was right on.   I did mention that I felt like even he sold out by backtracking his tweet right after he posted it when his boss (Fertita) obviously was displeased about it.   People are ambushing Lebron for his stance because he put finances over morals--and my point was that Morey did the exact same thing when he retracted it.  His original tweet was admirable---his retraction was lame and questionable.  

I also feel that Lebron's stance was also lame and questionable--albeit that there was some validity do the fact that there are and will be some unintended victims from Morey's original tweet.   While I do not agree with Lebron on this particular subject--I do not think that he is some complete moron that people in this thread were claiming that he is.  That's it in a nutshell--but somehow I get painted as being a Lebron apologist and a stalker for having that point of a view.   

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8 minutes ago, jvdesigns2002 said:

Not at all.   Even with our slight points of contention--I think we are all pretty much in agreement that the content of Morey's tweet was right on.   I did mention that I felt like even he sold out by backtracking his tweet right after he posted it when his boss (Fertita) obviously was displeased about it.   People are ambushing Lebron for his stance because he put finances over morals--and my point was that Morey did the exact same thing when he retracted it.  His original tweet was admirable---his retraction was lame and questionable.  

I also feel that Lebron's stance was also lame and questionable--albeit that there was some validity do the fact that there are and will be some unintended victims from Morey's original tweet.   While I do not agree with Lebron on this particular subject--I do not think that he is some complete moron that people in this thread were claiming that he is.  That's it in a nutshell--but somehow I get painted as being a Lebron apologist and a stalker for having that point of a view.   

Not at all similar.  LeBron won't lose his livelihood for sticking up for free speech and putting his support behind HK.  The NBA can't fire him.  The NBA can fire Morey.  These are two different people.   

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6 hours ago, Jayrod said:

Anybody that says this becomes a public enemy of China.  Unfortunately when you deal with a communist regime that is the risk you take.  Don't cross them or you lose everything you have in their country since they control everything.

LeBron only wears "I Can't Breathe" shirts when it is good for his brand.  But say anything that risks his bank account?  No comment.

People criticized Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods for not using their fame to take political stands. When your money is your main priority,  it's easy to understand why they did/didn't do.

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8 hours ago, Jayrod said:

Anybody that says this becomes a public enemy of China.  Unfortunately when you deal with a communist regime that is the risk you take.  Don't cross them or you lose everything you have in their country since they control everything.

LeBron only wears "I Can't Breathe" shirts when it is good for his brand.  But say anything that risks his bank account?  No comment.

Exactly, he needs his vanity Space Jam 2 movie to do well and sell a ton of tickets and merch in China. He isn't going to let his conscious get in the way of that.  

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5 hours ago, TheIronSheik said:

Not at all similar.  LeBron won't lose his livelihood for sticking up for free speech and putting his support behind HK.  The NBA can't fire him.  The NBA can fire Morey.  These are two different people.   

It is similar--you have two multi-millionaires that are having a hard time putting their morals above their money--no matter how you want to spin it. Morey's last contract was for 5 years 40 million dollars alone.  Conservatively--he probably has a net worth of somewhere north of $40-50million+.    He has a superb resume, a degree from MIT, and his notoriety alone would support him making millions of dollars per year even outside of the NBA.  There is zero reason to believe that Morey's livelihood would be altered at all if he got a private sector job outside of the NBA.  Morals are morals regardless of who the person's employer is.  This might be the root of where you and I disagree.  If so--we can just agree to disagree and that's fine.  I really don't want to go back and forth about this.  

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18 hours ago, EYLive said:

People criticized Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods for not using their fame to take political stands. When your money is your main priority,  it's easy to understand why they did/didn't do.

The difference is that Jordan and Tiger never claimed to be SJW fighting for those who didn't have a voice.  

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On 10/19/2019 at 11:24 AM, TheIronSheik said:

The difference is that Jordan and Tiger never claimed to be SJW fighting for those who didn't have a voice.  

Exactly.  LeBron & Kerr like to shine the light when it's cool...but risk their incomes?  No comment.

Fake woke d-bags.

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