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Former NBC staffer accuses Matt Lauer of rape in Ronan Farrow's new book

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Former NBC staffer accuses Matt Lauer of rape in Ronan Farrow's new book

 

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She says it happened after a night of drinking with Lauer and others at a hotel bar. Nevils said she had six shots of vodka. Lauer invited her up to his room but, according to Farrow, Nevils said she "had no reason to suspect Lauer would be anything but friendly based on prior experience."

Nevils told Farrow that once in the room, Lauer forced himself onto her and raped her.

"It was nonconsensual in the sense that I was too drunk to consent," Nevils said. "It was nonconsensual in that I said, multiple times, that I didn't want to have anal sex."

Nevils also told Farrow that she and Lauer later had sexual encounters that were consensual. "It was completely transactional. It was not a relationship," she said.

 

 

I am struggling with later having, what she refers to as, "consensual sex after what she views as rape.  I am not saying it wasn't rape and that what Lauer did wasn't appalling, I personally just have a hard time reconciling the sex after the rape.  But never being raped I don't know if I could ever understand the aftermath and how I would deal with it.

 

thoughts? 

Edited by toshiba
I didn't know who Ronan Farrow was and that he was a he.
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Just now, Ditkaless Wonders said:

I continue to not understand women.

I just learned that Ronan Farrow is in fact a he.  Sorry I referred to him as a her in my OP.

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2 minutes ago, toshiba said:

I just learned that Ronan Farrow is in fact a he.  Sorry I referred to him as a her in my OP.

No worries.  I just learned that Matt Lauer has a penis.  Prior to this allegation I had doubts.

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In my opinion, the first step to any understanding of how a woman reacts to having been raped is to understand that rape is not rare. Having been raped is not rare. And many, if not most, women in general society expect that a man will try to rape them at some point in their lives, if not multiple points.

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I already concluded that Matt Lauer was a rapist based on previous reports.

Of all the #metoo allegations, he and Bill Cosby were at the top of the list in terms of straight-up criminal acts.

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1 minute ago, Henry Ford said:

In my opinion, the first step to any understanding of how a woman reacts to having been raped is to understand that rape is not rare. Having been raped is not rare. And many, if not most, women in general society expect that a man will try to rape them at some point in their lives, if not multiple points.

This is the sad truth.  It makes me sick thinking about it.  

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1 minute ago, Henry Ford said:

In my opinion, the first step to any understanding of how a woman reacts to having been raped is to understand that rape is not rare. Having been raped is not rare. And many, if not most, women in general society expect that a man will try to rape them at some point in their lives, if not multiple points.

I don't want to understand that to be true. I want to believe otherwise.  That is probably a lack of moral courage on my part, preferring to foster denial, to foster fantasy rather than looking at a harsh reality objectively.

 

Now I'm  a bit depressed, and saddened, as there are women for whom I deeply care and I see there are pains out there waiting for them, stalking them, pains I cannot stop from coming. 

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50 minutes ago, toshiba said:

This is the sad truth.  It makes me sick thinking about it.  

 

47 minutes ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

I don't want to understand that to be true. I want to believe otherwise.  That is probably a lack of moral courage on my part, preferring to foster denial, to foster fantasy rather than looking at a harsh reality objectively.

 

Now I'm  a bit depressed, and saddened, as there are women for whom I deeply care and I see there are pains out there waiting for them, stalking them, pains I cannot stop from coming. 

Believe me when I tell you that every woman I've ever discussed this with wishes she could also believe otherwise.  Unfortunately, women do not have that luxury.

Men, however, do.  And we avail ourselves of it.  And then wonder, with a blindfold on, grasping wildly into the darkness, why we do not understand women when we have intentionally blinded ourselves to integral facts of their lives in our society.

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3 hours ago, toshiba said:

 

"It was nonconsensual in the sense that I was too drunk to consent," Nevils said. 

 

I dunno.  Rape is a pretty big word to throw around.  I understand that there are definitely times when a woman is too drunk to consent.  But is there a standard?  It's just . . . I don't know. 

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3 minutes ago, Sweet J said:

 

I dunno.  Rape is a pretty big word to throw around.  I understand that there are definitely times when a woman is too drunk to consent.  But is there a standard?  It's just . . . I don't know. 

Here's a good standard:

Quote

"It was nonconsensual in that I said, multiple times, that I didn't want to have anal sex."

That's rape.

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

Here's a good standard:

That's rape.

Yeah, I intentionally didn't pick that one as a quote to question. No means no, clearly.  

But "I was too drunk to consent" is hard.  It's a bit of a minefield. You may get into a situation where a woman is by all appearances an enthusiastic partner.  But what if she's so drunk that the next day she doesn't remember the evening.  Did she consent? Did she not?  It's tough. 

Edited by Sweet J

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4 hours ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

I continue to not understand women.

She didn't want to do that type of sex and he forcefully did it.  Yes doesn't mean * Brett.

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29 minutes ago, Sweet J said:

Yeah, I intentionally didn't pick that one as a quote to question. No means no, clearly.  

But "I was too drunk to consent" is hard.  It's a bit of a minefield. You may get into a situation where a woman is by all appearances an enthusiastic partner.  But what if she's so drunk that the next day she doesn't remember the evening.  Did she consent? Did she not?  It's tough. 

It is difficult.  Which is one reason it's a good idea to have sex with people for the first time when you're not both completely wasted.  Otherwise someone may wake up as a rapist.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

It is difficult.  Which is one reason it's a good idea to have sex with people for the first time when you're not both completely wasted.  Otherwise someone may wake up as a rapist.

Not a leading question here, truly curious as to your answer.

Is there any predictive value in the authenticity of an original rape claim if the alleged rapist and the alleged rape victim later have consensual sex?  Does it make it more or less likely that the first encounter was actually a rape, or are the two situations completely independent of each other?

Edited by adonis

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7 minutes ago, adonis said:

Not a leading question here, truly curious as to your answer.

Is there any predictive value in the authenticity of an original rape claim if the alleged rapist and the alleged rape victim later have consensual sex?  Does it make it more or less likely that the first encounter was actually a rape, or are the two situations completely independent of each other?

In general? No.  This is a question that can't be answered independent of the rest of the facts, in my opinion.

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24 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

In general? No.  This is a question that can't be answered independent of the rest of the facts, in my opinion.

Interesting.  It'd be hard to figure out how to measure this even if you had a sampling of all the cases of alleged rape in the country with enough information to pick out those that included later consensual sex, and the eventual outcome of the case.  Some initial charges were likely dropped due to not wanting to pursue them anymore, some likely due to the person admitting to lying, some due to exhaustion on the part of the victim and just not wanting to pursue it.  

It seems like in many cases the behavior of the alleged victim to the alleged rapist after the alleged rape took place is almost always used to call into question the honesty of the victims claims.  Was wondering if there was any data there to speak about that typical reaction to such information.

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44 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

It is difficult.  Which is one reason it's a good idea to have sex with people for the first time when you're not both completely wasted.  Otherwise someone may wake up as a rapist.

You ain't kidding.  My kid left for college a month ago, and he's so sick and tired of me saying this.  "You can NOT have sex with a girl for the first time on a night you or she have been drinking."  

"Yeah, I get it dad."

"Do you?  Do you really?  Because the first time you have sex with a girl, you or she can NOT be drunk."

Repeat ad nausium. 

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56 minutes ago, Punxsutawney Phil said:

She didn't want to do that type of sex and he forcefully did it.  Yes doesn't mean * Brett.

My misunderstanding is that I would believe a woman who felt violated would not later put that aside for consensual sex after that violative rape. 

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9 minutes ago, Sweet J said:

You ain't kidding.  My kid left for college a month ago, and he's so sick and tired of me saying this.  "You can NOT have sex with a girl for the first time on a night you or she have been drinking."  

"Yeah, I get it dad."

"Do you?  Do you really?  Because the first time you have sex with a girl, you or she can NOT be drunk."

Repeat ad nausium. 

I find it helpful for my young male family members to occasionally add the equivalent of "No, I don't mean you shouldn't.  I mean you can't.  Because if you have sex with a girl for the first time while she's drunk, you're not having sex with her, you're raping her."  It's much clearer.

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2 minutes ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

My misunderstanding is that I would believe a woman who felt violated would not later put that aside for consensual sex after that violative rape. 

Human beings will go a long way to try to live without feeling trauma.  It doesn't generally work, but we try really hard.

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1 hour ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

My misunderstanding is that I would believe a woman who felt violated would not later put that aside for consensual sex after that violative rape. 

I get what your saying and I think it's important to look at incidents individually and not paint them all with a broad brush stroke.  

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1 hour ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

My misunderstanding is that I would believe a woman who felt violated would not later put that aside for consensual sex after that violative rape. 

In this case, there seem to have been distinct career benefits to continuing the relationship, and perhaps she felt it was the best outcome for her at the time.

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7 hours ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

I continue to not understand women.

7 hours ago, toshiba said:

I just learned that Ronan Farrow is in fact a he.  Sorry I referred to him as a her in my OP.

 

This exchange really confused me.  It made me think Lauer had raped a man and then have consensual sex with him later.

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12 hours ago, AAABatteries said:

 

This exchange really confused me.  It made me think Lauer had raped a man and then have consensual sex with him later.

Ronan Farrow is a man and per his book they did engage in consensual sex after the rape. That is at least my understanding.

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20 hours ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

I don't want to understand that to be true. I want to believe otherwise.  That is probably a lack of moral courage on my part, preferring to foster denial, to foster fantasy rather than looking at a harsh reality objectively.

 

Now I'm  a bit depressed, and saddened, as there are women for whom I deeply care and I see there are pains out there waiting for them, stalking them, pains I cannot stop from coming. 

Right there with you on this. I have 2 daughters, and I'm doing my best to set a high standard for any boy that may eventually want to date them, but I can't control everything. That's distressing to me.

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His book highlights how NBC news covered for the elites. There is also plenty in it about the time the Harvey Weinstein story just "went away". 

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Sounds like she maybe got paid in 2018:

Quote

Nevils grew up in Missouri and graduated from Johns Hopkins University with a double major in political science and the Writing Seminars. She was a TV producer at NBC working at 30 Rockefeller Plaza until 2018 when she went on “medical leave” after leaving NBC and allegedly receiving a seven-figure payout from them, according to Variety’s reporting.

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On 10/9/2019 at 1:09 PM, Sweet J said:

Yeah, I intentionally didn't pick that one as a quote to question. No means no, clearly.  

But "I was too drunk to consent" is hard.  It's a bit of a minefield. You may get into a situation where a woman is by all appearances an enthusiastic partner.  But what if she's so drunk that the next day she doesn't remember the evening.  Did she consent? Did she not?  It's tough. 

"Too drunk to consent" mean passed out, not intoxicated.  

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7 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

"Too drunk to consent" mean passed out, not intoxicated.  

When I was going to school "too drunk to consent" was .10 in the bloodstream, according to our first-year orientation in NY. It meant legally drunk. That's what I was taught and always would abide thusly unless I knew for sure (like, in a long term relationship.)

I have no comment on the Ronan/Lauer thing other than seeing your quote and remembering something totally different. My memory could be faulty, though. 

Edited by rockaction

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Reading more on the story....

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Once she was in his hotel room, Lauer kissed her, then pushed her onto the bed and asked if she liked anal sex, Nevils alleges, according to Variety. Farrow writes that Nevils said she “declined several times,” but he allegedly “just did it” and didn’t use lubricant. Nevils reportedly claims the encounter was painful and that she “bled for days.”

“It was nonconsensual in the sense that I was too drunk to consent,” she reportedly tells Farrow in the book. “It was nonconsensual in that I said, multiple times, that I didn’t want to have anal sex.”

 

 

Why didn't she immediately go to the police?  If that not night, the next morning? I get it that she's overseas but it's still a crime.   

 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, rockaction said:

When I was going to school "too drunk to consent" was .10 in the bloodstream, according to our first-year orientation in NY. It meant legally drunk. That's what I was taught and always would abide thusly unless I knew for sure (like, in a long term relationship.)

I have no comment on the Ronan/Lauer thing other than seeing your quote and remembering something totally different. My memory could be faulty, though. 

This is what colleges typically teach first year students as a way of avoiding problems and encouraging good behavior.  That's not typically the legal standard though.  I can't speak to NY law specifically, but it most cases a person needs to be incapacitated or unable to give consent somehow, not just tipsy.  

Edit: Like others have noted, it's irrelevant in this case because the victim gave a clear, unambiguous "no" and Lauer ignored her, so there's no conceivable grey area here.  The topic of tipsy sex is just a pet peeve of mine.

Edited by IvanKaramazov
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1 minute ago, IvanKaramazov said:

This is what colleges typically teach first year students as a way of avoiding problems and encouraging good behavior.  That's not typically the legal standard though.  I can't speak to NY law specifically, but it most cases a person needs to be incapacitated or unable to give consent somehow, not just tipsy.  

Okay. Yeah, that sounds more like reality. I was just trying to suss out these things that we're never really told and that people are generally too embarrassed or ill-equipped to look up. (I'm one of them, though the drunk thing is really no longer much of a looming presence in my life as I age out of sexual activity.)

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16 minutes ago, Long Ball Larry said:

why is this in the politics forum?

Anything slightly edgy that will get people passionate gets thrown in the politics forum.

I mentioned that I liked ketchup on hot dogs and people screamed "MOVE THIS #### TO THE POLITICS FORUM!"

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18 minutes ago, Long Ball Larry said:

why is this in the politics forum?

Because since the MeToo movement, rape is inherently politically charged. 

To be fair, it always has been, but now we acknowledge it.

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49 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

"Too drunk to consent" mean passed out, not intoxicated.  

Not necessarily passed out, but incapable of understanding and considering complex ideas.  

Basically so drunk that if you showed up at your lawyer's office to sign something he'd send you home in a cab and have you come back tomorrow.

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13 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

Not necessarily passed out, but incapable of understanding and considering complex ideas.  

Basically so drunk that if you showed up at your lawyer's office to sign something he'd send you home in a cab and have you come back tomorrow.

Right.  This is a minefield.

I absolutely believe that there is a point where a woman can legitimately be too drunk to consent, but is still not "technically" passed out.  Essentially, she is out on her feet, she doesn't know where she really is, she's not capable of making appropriate decisions, etc. This is more than tipsy.

The problem comes when the guy is also very very drunk.  So much so that he doesn't understand how incapacitated she is. 

Recipe for disaster.

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3 minutes ago, Sweet J said:
20 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

Not necessarily passed out, but incapable of understanding and considering complex ideas.  

Basically so drunk that if you showed up at your lawyer's office to sign something he'd send you home in a cab and have you come back tomorrow.

Right.  This is a minefield.

I absolutely believe that there is a point where a woman can legitimately be too drunk to consent, but is still not "technically" passed out.  Essentially, she is out on her feet, she doesn't know where she really is, she's not capable of making appropriate decisions, etc. This is more than tipsy.

The problem comes when the guy is also very very drunk.  So much so that he doesn't understand how incapacitated she is. 

Recipe for disaster.

If the woman was this individual being "raped"  was drunk and drove home is that person not responsible for their actions?  Should this person be held somewhat accountable? I get this is a tough call, but how do we distinguish between a predator using this as a form or rape and just two drunk people who just are not with it?

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6 minutes ago, Sweet J said:

Right.  This is a minefield.

I absolutely believe that there is a point where a woman can legitimately be too drunk to consent, but is still not "technically" passed out.  Essentially, she is out on her feet, she doesn't know where she really is, she's not capable of making appropriate decisions, etc. This is more than tipsy.

The problem comes when the guy is also very very drunk.  So much so that he doesn't understand how incapacitated she is. 

Recipe for disaster.

Everything about drinking is a minefield.

 

I should really quit drinking.

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Just now, toshiba said:

If the woman was this individual being "raped"  was drunk and drove home is that person not responsible for their actions?  Should this person be held somewhat accountable? I get this is a tough call, but how do we distinguish between a predator using this as a form or rape and just two drunk people who just are not with it?

The entire point of this is that the person having sex isn't making a decision.  In a drunk driving case, the person takes the keys, and puts them in an ignition, and turns the keys, and puts the car in gear, and drives.

In a typical rape case, a person either just doesn't say "no" or doesn't really understand what he or she is saying yes to and the other person does things to them.  A good example of how to tell this happened is when the victim was vomiting during the act, or "wakes up" (comes somewhat to her senses) during the act and starts screaming or fighting.  Basically, it's like if your wife was asleep and you got her to say "yes" to a motorcycle while she was sleeping.  And then she woke up and didn't really know what you were talking about.

In this particular case, a woman alleges that she repeatedly told Matt Lauer "no, I don't want to have anal sex" and he raped her anally.

Obviously things are fairly fact dependent in these cases, but this one seems pretty clear if it occurred as alleged.

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29 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

Not necessarily passed out, but incapable of understanding and considering complex ideas.  

Basically so drunk that if you showed up at your lawyer's office to sign something he'd send you home in a cab and have you come back tomorrow.

Would you like to have butt-sex? 

[   ] yes

[   ] no

Sincerely,

Your lawyer

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47 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

Not necessarily passed out, but incapable of understanding and considering complex ideas.  

Basically so drunk that if you showed up at your lawyer's office to sign something he'd send you home in a cab and have you come back tomorrow.

Yeah, I should have said "incapacitated" or something.  If a person is theoretically conscious but needs be helped into bed, it's a no-go.

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I am sure we are getting to the point of consent forms filled out and notarized before sex in the future.   

"No means NO!"  All males understand that but in this climate of regret after the fact...I think consent forms are the way of the future.   Maybe some sort of Skype lawyer to represent both parties. 

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1 hour ago, SHIZNITTTT said:

I am sure we are getting to the point of consent forms filled out and notarized before sex in the future.   

"No means NO!"  All males understand that but in this climate of regret after the fact...I think consent forms are the way of the future.   Maybe some sort of Skype lawyer to represent both parties. 

There are a few ways to avoid this.  One is clear and open communication. The other is the aforementioned "don't be trashed when you have sex for the first time." 

Your average idiot 18-22 year old college student is pretty bad at both of these strategies.  They need to get better. 

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7 hours ago, eoMMan said:

Reading more on the story....

 

Why didn't she immediately go to the police?  If that not night, the next morning? I get it that she's overseas but it's still a crime.   

 

 

 

It is a crime but rape is so much different.  Especially when the perp is someone you know or trust etc.

I won’t even try to pretend to understand what a woman goes through when this happens.

It’s not like you walk outside one day to find your car has been stolen.  Of course your first move is to call the cops. Rape is such a total mind-#### that the logical rules don’t apply.

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This is a situation where I don't think it is at all surprising that she didn't go to the police.  Or even that she had subsequent consensual relations with Lauer.  The power imbalance was massive.  She thought Lauer could ruin her.  And she didn't know if people would believe her considering she was intoxicated and apparently voluntarily in his hotel room.  

There is a difficulty in all of these situations in that there are rarely witnesses.  What happened is kind of unknowable.  But I don't think her account is rendered any less credible by this, particularly as she apparently told several low level co-workers the truth contemporaneously.  

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4 hours ago, McJose said:

It is a crime but rape is so much different.  Especially when the perp is someone you know or trust etc.

I won’t even try to pretend to understand what a woman goes through when this happens.

It’s not like you walk outside one day to find your car has been stolen.  Of course your first move is to call the cops. Rape is such a total mind-#### that the logical rules don’t apply.

On some level it is like finding your car is stolen.  And then you find out it’s your boss that took it.  And then he’s so nice about saying how much he appreciated that you let him borrow your car. And then he explains he hasn’t had anyone like you lend him his car before and he’d like to borrow it again, and maybe you guys could drive around together and see whether you really  are compatible.  
 

And then you realize months later he’s not really that into your car he just didn’t want you to call the police.  

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