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TheIronSheik

A new dark ages in art and entertainment

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Ok, so maybe not the Dark Ages.  I exaggerate a little.  But maybe more in line to how back in the early 20th century, religious groups kept certain types of art and entertainment banned.

Back in my late teens/early 20's, I tried stand up.  I had always loved comedy and wanted to be a famous comedian.  Have my own HBO comedy special.  Do my tight five at an SNL audition.  I ended up working with a guy at a restaurant who worked in the kitchen at lunch, and did stand up at night.  He wasn't anything big, but to me, he was great.  He took me under his wing and for about 8 years (on and off), I would try my luck on local stages.  The problem was, I realized really quick that I didn't like stand up as much as I liked writing.  I hated having to say the same stories over and over.  I still do to this day.  It just seems odd to me.  I like to be funny.  And stand up was more of just a routine.  So as quickly as I started following my dream, I also started to loath it.  Eventually, I gave up on it altogether.  Luckily, I was able to turn that talent into an IT guy who spends a lot of time on an outdated form of communication making tens of people mildly chuckle.  So, not too shabby.  

Anyway, I start off with that because I wanted to give some backstory to what I'm getting at.  It used to be that you couldn't say things because it was raunchy.  Or outside of what church-going, God-fearing people believed was allowed in public.  But by the 80's and 90's, we were in a groove.  Comedy was peak.  Fast forward into the late aughts and now teens.  The PC culture has taken over and is now doing exactly what the religious did in the early 1900's.  We've moved the needle so much, we're back where we started.  We've come full circle, but not in a good way.

Comedy, right now, is probably at it's worst it's been in decades.  Maybe ever.  Or at least since we started doing comedy.  That's not saying there aren't great comedians now.  There are.  But if you listen to most comedians now, they're all saying the same thing: PC culture is ruining comedy.  Everyone wants to be offended.  They don't see the humor in humor.  Instead they try to see the offensiveness of humor.  Good humor walks the line.  Chevy Chase and Richard Pryor doing word association on SNL, is a great example.  But humor also sometimes steps way over the line.  And that's ok.  Because it's not meant to be serious.  It's meant to make you laugh.  

I have trouble watching TV or movies or standup anymore, because we've all been told we have to have the same thoughts.  We are only allowed to make fun of certain people and certain beliefs.  Everything else is off limits.  And that's stifling.  And sad.

Anyway, my thoughts are that it's going to get worse before it gets better.  People like Burr and Chappelle are the last of a dying breed.  I miss comedy.  I don't think it'll be back to what it once was in my lifetime.  Keep in mind, I have a crappy diet and I'm in my mid 40's, so my lifetime might end up being 18 months.  

Any thoughts on this? 

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You'll never find the apologists for PC culture like you will on this board, so why even discuss it, really? It'll just come back to the same old tropes about offending and race/gender/class/ethnicity garbage we always do. We know who the ninnies are. They've been told in many ways. They're still ninnies, unapologetically. They're like the unholy union between women's temperance unions and baptists at the turn of the century. 

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1 minute ago, rockaction said:

You'll never find the apologists for PC culture like you will on this board, so why even discuss it, really? It'll just come back to the same old tropes about offending and race/gender/class/ethnicity garbage we always do. We know who the ninnies are. They've been told in many ways. They're still ninnies, unapologetically. They're like the unholy union between women's temperance unions and baptists at the turn of the century. 

Exactly.  But I don't know about the first part.  Maybe because I was away for so long.  And I tried to stay out of political threads.  Not that this is political.  At least, it shouldn't be.  

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2 minutes ago, TheIronSheik said:

Exactly.  But I don't know about the first part.  Maybe because I was away for so long.  And I tried to stay out of political threads.  Not that this is political.  At least, it shouldn't be.  

It absolutely is going to overlap with the political element of sociopolitical, Sheik. You're not going to avoid that debate by positing what posted and having its premise taken as given. I think hagmania posted a similar topic to this about the death of comedic films and I responded with sentiments from Seinfeld and Chappelle saying the same thing and I think it was, in the end, dismissed as a reason. I think hags even called it "lazy analysis," though he was nice about it. 

I'm not so sure. I think PC culture was Ricky Gervais's and Chappelle's last stand-up targets. 

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Posted (edited)

 

Doug Stanhope

 

Edited by Hov34

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Long Ball Larry said:

middle-aged guy doesn't like new stuff.  stop the presses.

I don't think that even begins to address the social and religious implications of the religiosity of the impulse that is curbing the comedic arts, though of course the usual suspects -- not you -- have chimed in with their likes, put-upons, borings, etc., and proceeded to like the most reductive counterargument that missed the point.

I'm talking about that Tanner bot thing that should be treated other than as a Whack-A-Mole.

Edited by rockaction

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Posted (edited)

Anger.

I've been on this now & then in the SNL (i did have my 8 minutes on the 17th floor of 30Rock in 1980) thread. but the reason comedy is dying is the de-legitimization of righteous anger. SNL crapped out (altho it had shining moments for several years doing so) because it gave itself over to improvisers instead of comics and that ended up with their comedy being too cooperative, counterindicating anger and making mere meanness the mean. Will Ferrell is brilliant, Tina Fey is brilliant, Amy Poehler is brilliant, Kristen Wiig is brilliant. They are also all not only nice, but sweet.

Anger.

It's not only comedy, it's music, movies. Rock, Punk, Grunge, Rap - all fuming mad origins in our best music. Coppola, Scorsese, Nicholson, Kubrick, DeNiro, Pacino - 10% genius, 90% anger, 0% nice. Carlin hated the audiences who loved him, Steve Martin the same. Richie Pryor told you jokes to keep from killing you. Chase, Belushi, Billy Murray all punched a face for every back they patted. I've known Jay Leno since he was 18 (hung w the same Emerson mafia he grew out of) and he seethes without stop even when he thinks pleasing folks is the shark move. I'm not even gonna talk about the Jews who ruled vaudeville & early television

Anger. 

It amazes me how unmad this culture is anymore. The more putrid it gets, the more of it folks want shoved in their faces. Tom Hanks, Meryl Streep, Matt Damon make some wonderful art, God bless 'em. But they aint moving the art. Part of it is because women now make near half of the choices. A lot of it is, as i say a LOT in the Politics Forum, is because we've gone from being citizens to customers. And sustaining anger used to be HOW you got the money guys to take a chance on you. Being unable to resolve your anger is how you ruin a career nowadays. Nobody since the early Juggalos have unplugged from & attacked the culture. As a result, our country is presently in the hands of the only angry-enough man in America, Donald Trump. We lose.

Anger is the difference.

Edited by wikkidpissah
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Anthony Jeselnik seems to be doing fine and he’s about as dark as it gets. 

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3 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

Anthony Jeselnik seems to be doing fine and he’s about as dark as it gets. 

Because you were able to provide an example, are you disagreeing with the OPs premise? 

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I know that righteous sociopolitical anger is your trip wikkid, but rock existed way before anger as a righteous outlet existed, so that premise just doesn't seem correct. Elvis wearing makeup and eyeliner and mascara was hardly anger, it was sex.

Comedy isn't reductive to anger, either. It's a nod to neuroses of all things, be they simple grammar twists "Take my wife...please..." to broad sociopolitical comments. But the death of anger isn't happening. It's actually fueling radically different politics than even expected heretofore. There's tons of anger in art, in music, everywhere. One has to be blind not to see it. It's just that the anger, released from the box, isn't how some particular people want it sublimated.

That's never gonna happen. 

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24 minutes ago, TheIronSheik said:

Ok, so maybe not the Dark Ages.  I exaggerate a little.  But maybe more in line to how back in the early 20th century, religious groups kept certain types of art and entertainment banned.

Back in my late teens/early 20's, I tried stand up.  I had always loved comedy and wanted to be a famous comedian.  Have my own HBO comedy special.  Do my tight five at an SNL audition.  I ended up working with a guy at a restaurant who worked in the kitchen at lunch, and did stand up at night.  He wasn't anything big, but to me, he was great.  He took me under his wing and for about 8 years (on and off), I would try my luck on local stages.  The problem was, I realized really quick that I didn't like stand up as much as I liked writing.  I hated having to say the same stories over and over.  I still do to this day.  It just seems odd to me.  I like to be funny.  And stand up was more of just a routine.  So as quickly as I started following my dream, I also started to loath it.  Eventually, I gave up on it altogether.  Luckily, I was able to turn that talent into an IT guy who spends a lot of time on an outdated form of communication making tens of people mildly chuckle.  So, not too shabby.  

Anyway, I start off with that because I wanted to give some backstory to what I'm getting at.  It used to be that you couldn't say things because it was raunchy.  Or outside of what church-going, God-fearing people believed was allowed in public.  But by the 80's and 90's, we were in a groove.  Comedy was peak.  Fast forward into the late aughts and now teens.  The PC culture has taken over and is now doing exactly what the religious did in the early 1900's.  We've moved the needle so much, we're back where we started.  We've come full circle, but not in a good way.

Comedy, right now, is probably at it's worst it's been in decades.  Maybe ever.  Or at least since we started doing comedy.  That's not saying there aren't great comedians now.  There are.  But if you listen to most comedians now, they're all saying the same thing: PC culture is ruining comedy.  Everyone wants to be offended.  They don't see the humor in humor.  Instead they try to see the offensiveness of humor.  Good humor walks the line.  Chevy Chase and Richard Pryor doing word association on SNL, is a great example.  But humor also sometimes steps way over the line.  And that's ok.  Because it's not meant to be serious.  It's meant to make you laugh.  

I have trouble watching TV or movies or standup anymore, because we've all been told we have to have the same thoughts.  We are only allowed to make fun of certain people and certain beliefs.  Everything else is off limits.  And that's stifling.  And sad.

Anyway, my thoughts are that it's going to get worse before it gets better.  People like Burr and Chappelle are the last of a dying breed.  I miss comedy.  I don't think it'll be back to what it once was in my lifetime.  Keep in mind, I have a crappy diet and I'm in my mid 40's, so my lifetime might end up being 18 months.  

Any thoughts on this? 

Thoughts? Oh hell yeah.

It's a repeat of America from 1910-1929. It will end when enough people push back or some outside event occurs to force people into survival mode

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Just now, tommyboy said:

Thoughts? Oh hell yeah.

It's a repeat of America from 1910-1929. It will end when enough people push back or some outside event occurs to force people into survival mode

Yep. It's a knicker-bunched sort of knickerbocked culture. I agree. We already had to reckon with out PC culture in 2001 and we'll get further there as the madness of doubleplusungood language tweaks and non-gendered bathrooms are considered mecca for influential dolts. 

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1 minute ago, Cjw_55106 said:

Because you were able to provide an example, are you disagreeing with the OPs premise? 

Which premise, there are several?

This is a new dark ages for art and entertainment.

Comedy is at its worst in the history of comedy.

The OP has trouble watching TV, movies and standup anymore because he’s feels forced to feel a certain way.

It is limited who/what can be mocked. 

I don’t think it’s as wide open as it was in the 70s but I also don’t think a lot of that stuff was very funny either. I can give lots of examples of successful dark and funny. Succession, VEEP, Deadpool, Black Klansman, South Park is still going, new Chapelle standup. I think we are seeing trends but I’m not sure I buy there is a full on dark ages.

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With Dave Chappelle and Bill Burr pushing back in their most recent shows, it's already started.

 

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5 minutes ago, rockaction said:

I know that righteous sociopolitical anger is your trip wikkid, but rock existed way before anger as a righteous outlet existed, so that premise just doesn't seem correct. Elvis wearing makeup and eyeliner and mascara was hardly anger, it was sex.

Comedy isn't reductive to anger, either. It's a nod to neuroses of all things, be they simple grammar twists "Take my wife...please..." to broad sociopolitical comments. But the death of anger isn't happening. It's actually fueling radically different politics than even expected heretofore. There's tons of anger in art, in music, everywhere. One has to be blind not to see it. It's just that the anger, released from the box, isn't how some particular people want it sublimated.

That's never gonna happen. 

There's tons of temper in today's art & politics. Not anger. Tantrums have replaced revolutions. And now i know why you're not funny.

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1910-1929? You know that’s when movies actually weren’t censored, it was 1930 that the production code and censoring of film (the only true national entertainment of the time) began and it lasted until about 68.

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, wikkidpissah said:

There's tons of temper in today's art & politics. Not anger. Tantrums have replaced revolutions. And now i know why you're not funny.

Jeez, that got personal.

Sorry I disagree with your reductive take on anger, man.

Should I get personal back, as I never do?

I mean, speaking of tantrums...

Edited by rockaction

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Just now, rockaction said:

Jeez, that got personal.

Sorry I disagree with your reductive take on anger, man.

Should I get personal back, as I never do?

see? you don't understand anger's place in humor at all....

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I think the little spat here with Rock and Wikkid (2 of my favorite posters) also highlights how generational comedy can be. 

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We're living in the monoculture. There's only one way to feel about things. There's a right opinion and a wrong opinion. And you're either in or wrong. I think the most glaring obvious example is the movie Deadpool. Deadpool should only appeal to a narrow fraction of the audience. Only a few people should even get it. It's an inside-joke, for deep comic nerds. Yet everyone is filled in on how to "get it" and it's a billion dollar franchise. It shouldn't be. I'm not saying the movies aren't great, but, they are evidence of a singular pop-culture that everyone is funneled into. 

I hear this is happening a lot with music. No one growing up now can be a fan of some small-time forgotten deep cut band. Everyone has to pull from the same catalog or be ostracized. There are certain mainstream acts you can't not like. Other mainstream acts you have to hate. But no one is getting pulled out of the long-tail or even listening to those tracks. Kids aren't allowed to have opinions and likes outside the singular generational pop culture history they're a part of and all have to share. It's not like some kids can grow up and like Floyd and other kids can grow up liking the Beatles. Now everyone has to be OK with Billie Eilish and understand who she is and support what she stands for and send death threats to anyone who fires off a bad take tweet about her. 

 

Anyway, yeah, whatever reddit says is funny is funny and whatever meme a few influencers pick up becomes viral and everyone has to be in on the joke in under 24 hours. And if you dissent you're dead. 

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1 minute ago, wikkidpissah said:

see? you don't understand anger's place in humor at all....

Guilty!

:ptts:

The product of not understanding anger's place in humor. That's what the shirt says.

No, seriously, I think your point is great up until a point, and then other impulses come into play. You've got it fleshed out better than I have anger's place in what goes on, even back to the Rolling Stones thread, which was enlightening in terms of figuring out how anger so permeated their political songs and even their sexual songs that became political just by their utterance. But there are some phenomena, some movements, that can't be traced to anger, IMHO. 

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1 minute ago, Ilov80s said:

I think the little spat here with Rock and Wikkid (2 of my favorite posters) also highlights how generational comedy can be. 

yeah -

3 gens ago: funny

2 gens ago: funny

gen ago: funny

now: Bill Burr's a cited master of the art

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

I think the little spat here with Rock and Wikkid (2 of my favorite posters) also highlights how generational comedy can be. 

I think this is a good observation. Not much else to say other than that it is generational and I'm likelier to agree with wikkid rather than disagree, just the root cause isn't always anger, IMHO.  

Edited by rockaction
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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, wikkidpissah said:

yeah -

3 gens ago: funny

2 gens ago: funny

gen ago: funny

now: Bill Burr's a cited master of the art

Not sure I agree there. It’s very typical for young people to not find the movies of their parents generation funny. 

Also I disagree with the monoculture part. I think we’ve seen the monoculture significantly diluted. Kids today have a really wide variety of entertainment that it’s tough to keep up because they don’t have to rely on MTV or radio stations or cable- they have access to everything.

Edited by Ilov80s

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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, rockaction said:

Guilty!

:ptts:

The product of not understanding anger's place in humor. That's what the shirt says.

No, seriously, I think your point is great up until a point, and then other impulses come into play. You've got it fleshed out better than I have anger's place in what goes on, even back to the Rolling Stones thread, which was enlightening in terms of figuring out how anger so permeated their political songs and even their sexual songs that became political just by their utterance. But there are some phenomena, some movements, that can't be traced to anger, IMHO. 

*British accent* Oh, my! So terribly surprised you could find holes in my massive generalizations, I must say.

I did standup once. Never thought i would because i have crippling stagefright, but i'd had success on the stage & radio & for other comics as a writer and...well...an incredibly sexy girl reeeeally thought i should give it a try. My solution was to include songs (the rules of acceptable standup were less tight 45 years ago and I'd loved Tom Lehrer & Allan Sherman growing up) so a pianoplayer friend would be onstage w me. I tested my bits with comedy pals and they said i couldnt go onstage w my material. One of the songs was this:

*to the tune of I Left My Heart in SF*

I left my leg

In Mekong Delta

Above the knee

I'm an amputee

To see those stubby little scars

Climb halfway to my arz

The doctors say i'll stay that way

What the hey...

My leg waits there

In Mekong Delta

From a rice paddy

It calls to me

When I come home to you

Mekong Delta

Won't you take the rest of me

 

Not the best bit of business, but this was 1975. Along with some of the jokes about the New Cynicism in government, everybody was sure people would rush the stage. My answer? DUH! I'm not going up there unless they can suffer as much as i will. Everybody out there knows a boy that died in the jungle. I'ma tell em those boys didn't have to and make em laugh at it or i aint goin up. They convinced me to find a Namvet as a piano player or not do it. I thought that was funny and agreed. It sucked, some people laughed, i lost 20 pounds in sweat. THAT is what the non-Semitic comedy that is the foundation for virtually every laugh y'all have ever had is based in. We wanted to biff.

ETA: There werent comedy clubs then. Even Leno was working strip clubs in the area. Jazz club owner Sandy Berman let me open for a band at his place in Beverly MA. so the audience might have been more sophisticated than the avg standup joint

Edited by wikkidpissah

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55 minutes ago, wikkidpissah said:

Anger.

I've been on this now & then in the SNL (i did have my 8 minutes on the 17th floor of 30Rock in 1980) thread. but the reason comedy is dying is the de-legitimization of righteous anger. SNL crapped out (altho it had shining moments for several years doing so) because it gave itself over to improvisers instead of comics and that ended up with their comedy being too cooperative, counterindicating anger and making mere meanness the mean. Will Ferrell is brilliant, Tina Fey is brilliant, Amy Poehler is brilliant, Kristen Wiig is brilliant. They are also all not only nice, but sweet.

Anger.

It's not only comedy, it's music, movies. Rock, Punk, Grunge, Rap - all fuming mad origins in our best music. Coppola, Scorsese, Nicholson, Kubrick, DeNiro, Pacino - 10% genius, 90% anger, 0% nice. Carlin hated the audiences who loved him, Steve Martin the same. Richie Pryor told you jokes to keep from killing you. Chase, Belushi, Billy Murray all punched a face for every back they patted. I've known Jay Leno since he was 18 (hung w the same Emerson mafia he grew out of) and he seethes without stop even when he thinks pleasing folks is the shark move. I'm not even gonna talk about the Jews who ruled vaudeville & early television

Anger. 

It amazes me how unmad this culture is anymore. The more putrid it gets, the more of it folks want shoved in their faces. Tom Hanks, Meryl Streep, Matt Damon make some wonderful art, God bless 'em. But they aint moving the art. Part of it is because women now make near half of the choices. A lot of it is, as i say a LOT in the Politics Forum, is because we've gone from being citizens to customers. And sustaining anger used to be HOW you got the money guys to take a chance on you. Being unable to resolve your anger is how you ruin a career nowadays. Nobody since the early Juggalos have unplugged from & attacked the culture. As a result, our country is presently in the hands of the only angry-enough man in America, Donald Trump. We lose.

Anger is the difference.

Anger is an energy. (Johnny Rotten)

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I try. Honestly I do. Read most posts twice. And I consider myself relatively intelligent. However...

I NEVER know what the #### you're talking about.

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Just now, Andy Dufresne said:

I try. Honestly I do. Read most posts twice. And I consider myself relatively intelligent. However...

I NEVER know what the #### you're talking about.

thanks for still trying. i'm not trying to confuse anyone. it's just how it comes out. glad i dont have to read it

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7 minutes ago, Andy Dufresne said:

I try. Honestly I do. Read most posts twice. And I consider myself relatively intelligent. However...

I NEVER know what the #### you're talking about.

Now let me walk this back a bit by saying that I'm quite sure you're orders of magnitude more creative than I am.

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Comedy can be smart. Comedy can be stupid. Comedy can be looks you give to someone. Comedy is art. It is subjective. Those before us will tell you comedy ain't pretty. 

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Just now, Andy Dufresne said:

Now let me walk this back a bit by saying that I'm quite sure you're orders of magnitude more creative than I am.

creative. shmeative. i want brain cells to dance when they read my stuff cuz i think brain cells should dance. this way seems to do that. there i go again....:kicksrock:

 

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45 minutes ago, Walking Boot said:

We're living in the monoculture. There's only one way to feel about things. There's a right opinion and a wrong opinion. And you're either in or wrong. I think the most glaring obvious example is the movie Deadpool. Deadpool should only appeal to a narrow fraction of the audience. Only a few people should even get it. It's an inside-joke, for deep comic nerds. Yet everyone is filled in on how to "get it" and it's a billion dollar franchise. It shouldn't be. I'm not saying the movies aren't great, but, they are evidence of a singular pop-culture that everyone is funneled into. 

I hear this is happening a lot with music. No one growing up now can be a fan of some small-time forgotten deep cut band. Everyone has to pull from the same catalog or be ostracized. There are certain mainstream acts you can't not like. Other mainstream acts you have to hate. But no one is getting pulled out of the long-tail or even listening to those tracks. Kids aren't allowed to have opinions and likes outside the singular generational pop culture history they're a part of and all have to share. It's not like some kids can grow up and like Floyd and other kids can grow up liking the Beatles. Now everyone has to be OK with Billie Eilish and understand who she is and support what she stands for and send death threats to anyone who fires off a bad take tweet about her.

 

Anyway, yeah, whatever reddit says is funny is funny and whatever meme a few influencers pick up becomes viral and everyone has to be in on the joke in under 24 hours. And if you dissent you're dead. 

[turns down KMFDM]

who’s this now?

[/turns up KMFDM]

 

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6 minutes ago, BoltNlava said:

Comedy can be smart. Comedy can be stupid. Comedy can be looks you give to someone. Comedy is art. It is subjective. Those before us will tell you comedy ain't pretty. 

https://fanart.tv/fanart/music/0da08c43-c04c-4016-968d-b9d3eb9b7751/cdart/comedy-is-not-pretty-5159b474207b3.png

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Chapelle is my favorite comedian ever and I'm pretty sure this has been the subject of his stuff on Netflix.

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43 minutes ago, wikkidpissah said:

thanks for still trying. i'm not trying to confuse anyone. it's just how it comes out. glad i dont have to read it

I don't need to start translating again do I?

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11 minutes ago, Jayrod said:

Chapelle is my favorite comedian ever and I'm pretty sure this has been the subject of his stuff on Netflix.

And Todd Phillips, the guy who made the new Joker film and several top grossing comedies has also talked about it. It’s certainly a topic du jour.

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As comedies go, JoJo Rabbit looks good. It’s about a NAZI Youth who has an imaginary friend: a zany version of Adolf Hitler.

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1 hour ago, tommyboy said:

Thoughts? Oh hell yeah.

It's a repeat of America from 1910-1929. It will end when enough people push back or some outside event occurs to force people into survival mode

We're also back to full circle regarding Communism being hip to young folks again, same as it was in that era.

What strikes me as odd--though I'll say my knowledge of history isn't as strong as others here--is that what was going on ~100 years ago seemed like it was more of an attempt to return to a more innocent and traditional way of life, and this time around it's the 'disenfranchised' that are striving to establish a new morality that's diametrically opposed to what was, simply because it's 'the old way'. 

I would also say that identity politics is running amok, and tribalism is more 'rampant' than ever, such that everyone looks to magnify the slightest offense to their identity to the point that humor must restrain itself.  Take Don Rickles, for example.  If someone attempted to break into the business using his shtick, they would never make it.  

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2 hours ago, tommyboy said:

With Dave Chappelle and Bill Burr pushing back in their most recent shows, it's already started.

 

Burr going after Michelle Obama and Stephen Hawking especially was cringe worthy brilliant.
 

This will come full circle. It always does. The next Lenny Bruce, Pryor, Stanhope, Burr, Attell etc will come around. If you aren’t edgy I’m not interested. 

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18 minutes ago, Charlie Steiner said:

We're also back to full circle regarding Communism being hip to young folks again, same as it was in that era.

Economic issues between labor and ownership in many ways are similar to where we are today which I think naturally breed these ideas in the youths. 

What strikes me as odd--though I'll say my knowledge of history isn't as strong as others here--is that what was going on ~100 years ago seemed like it was more of an attempt to return to a more innocent and traditional way of life, and this time around it's the 'disenfranchised' that are striving to establish a new morality that's diametrically opposed to what was, simply because it's 'the old way'. 

I would say it was rural and religious motivations behind the more conservative social policies. At that time the country was transitioning from being majority rural to majority urban. Urban America and it's popular art was quite liberal. Movies of the 20s had far more sex and violence than we would see after 1930 due to the Hays Code. This was driven by the Catholic Church, studio heads concerned about profit and profiteering politicians (Hayes himself). 

I would also say that identity politics is running amok, and tribalism is more 'rampant' than ever, such that everyone looks to magnify the slightest offense to their identity to the point that humor must restrain itself.  Take Don Rickles, for example.  If someone attempted to break into the business using his shtick, they would never make it.  

Maybe but the country has always been full of turbulence between opposing sides. While rhetoric is high right now, actual violence between the sides is actually pretty low.

 

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3 hours ago, wikkidpissah said:

Anger.

I've been on this now & then in the SNL (i did have my 8 minutes on the 17th floor of 30Rock in 1980) thread. but the reason comedy is dying is the de-legitimization of righteous anger. SNL crapped out (altho it had shining moments for several years doing so) because it gave itself over to improvisers instead of comics and that ended up with their comedy being too cooperative, counterindicating anger and making mere meanness the mean. Will Ferrell is brilliant, Tina Fey is brilliant, Amy Poehler is brilliant, Kristen Wiig is brilliant. They are also all not only nice, but sweet.

Anger.

It's not only comedy, it's music, movies. Rock, Punk, Grunge, Rap - all fuming mad origins in our best music. Coppola, Scorsese, Nicholson, Kubrick, DeNiro, Pacino - 10% genius, 90% anger, 0% nice. Carlin hated the audiences who loved him, Steve Martin the same. Richie Pryor told you jokes to keep from killing you. Chase, Belushi, Billy Murray all punched a face for every back they patted. I've known Jay Leno since he was 18 (hung w the same Emerson mafia he grew out of) and he seethes without stop even when he thinks pleasing folks is the shark move. I'm not even gonna talk about the Jews who ruled vaudeville & early television

Anger. 

It amazes me how unmad this culture is anymore. The more putrid it gets, the more of it folks want shoved in their faces. Tom Hanks, Meryl Streep, Matt Damon make some wonderful art, God bless 'em. But they aint moving the art. Part of it is because women now make near half of the choices. A lot of it is, as i say a LOT in the Politics Forum, is because we've gone from being citizens to customers. And sustaining anger used to be HOW you got the money guys to take a chance on you. Being unable to resolve your anger is how you ruin a career nowadays. Nobody since the early Juggalos have unplugged from & attacked the culture. As a result, our country is presently in the hands of the only angry-enough man in America, Donald Trump. We lose.

Anger is the difference.

You had me until the Juggalo reference GB.  

...you still have me.  

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, Binky The Doormat said:

You had me until the Juggalo reference GB.  

...you still have me.  

I just don't get why young people aren't unplugging. Their community is lame, contrived, co-dependent, reactive, and gluttonously self-involved.

A great person does what the fire in their heart, the gift in their minds, their argument with the gods points them to do. They don't stop to ask "how'm i doin'?" every twelve seconds. They don't focus on their brands. Art is a prayer, but artists are Promethean. They steal fire from the gods and, if they get to light the fuse of their genius, being tied to a rock for the vultures to pick at their viscera for eternity is a fair price to pay for the chance that their candle brings forth an inferno. People with shoe collections, people who venture to know how much better one bitter beverage is than another, people who know the value of backsplashes and pursuers/purveyors/perpetuators of other minor masteries don't even know what art is. Art is being humbled by every synapse they can leap, metaphor they can cajole from the ether, connection they can forge in real time. Nothing less - courage is a genius these mere customers have foresaken.

To your point, I may have it wrong, but i thought the original ethos of ICP fans was to unplug, to not sellout no matter what. I just don't get why young people aren't unplugging. I feel about these impatient poofs as the great philosopher Allan Sherman did about the overstuffed Louis XVI in his analysis of the French Revolution:

You went the wrong way Old King Louis
Now we must put you on the shelf
The people are revolting, cuz Louis,
You're pretty revolting yourself!

Edited by wikkidpissah
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1 hour ago, Judge Smails said:

Burr going after Michelle Obama and Stephen Hawking especially was cringe worthy brilliant.
 

This will come full circle. It always does. The next Lenny Bruce, Pryor, Stanhope, Burr, Attell etc will come around. If you aren’t edgy I’m not interested. 

I agree that we are in one of the biggest comedy lulls of my lifetime (The last decade has been abysmal for movie comedies) and also agree with Judge that it will eventually come around.  I think someday we'll collectively tone out the SJW's - it hasn't started yet.

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4 hours ago, wikkidpissah said:

Anger.

I've been on this now & then in the SNL (i did have my 8 minutes on the 17th floor of 30Rock in 1980) thread. but the reason comedy is dying is the de-legitimization of righteous anger. SNL crapped out (altho it had shining moments for several years doing so) because it gave itself over to improvisers instead of comics and that ended up with their comedy being too cooperative, counterindicating anger and making mere meanness the mean. Will Ferrell is brilliant, Tina Fey is brilliant, Amy Poehler is brilliant, Kristen Wiig is brilliant. They are also all not only nice, but sweet.

Anger.

It's not only comedy, it's music, movies. Rock, Punk, Grunge, Rap - all fuming mad origins in our best music. Coppola, Scorsese, Nicholson, Kubrick, DeNiro, Pacino - 10% genius, 90% anger, 0% nice. Carlin hated the audiences who loved him, Steve Martin the same. Richie Pryor told you jokes to keep from killing you. Chase, Belushi, Billy Murray all punched a face for every back they patted. I've known Jay Leno since he was 18 (hung w the same Emerson mafia he grew out of) and he seethes without stop even when he thinks pleasing folks is the shark move. I'm not even gonna talk about the Jews who ruled vaudeville & early television

Anger. 

It amazes me how unmad this culture is anymore. The more putrid it gets, the more of it folks want shoved in their faces. Tom Hanks, Meryl Streep, Matt Damon make some wonderful art, God bless 'em. But they aint moving the art. Part of it is because women now make near half of the choices. A lot of it is, as i say a LOT in the Politics Forum, is because we've gone from being citizens to customers. And sustaining anger used to be HOW you got the money guys to take a chance on you. Being unable to resolve your anger is how you ruin a career nowadays. Nobody since the early Juggalos have unplugged from & attacked the culture. As a result, our country is presently in the hands of the only angry-enough man in America, Donald Trump. We lose.

Anger is the difference.

I don't know if I agree with this one or not, but this is an extremely interesting take.  Thanks for posting this.

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