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Stompin' Tom Connors

New England D/ST - how do they rank all time for fantasy?

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I know there are plenty of instances of fantasy D's scoring >30, >40, and even >50 points historically in a single game.

Was searching around for stats for all-time highest average scoring fantasy D over the course of the season.

Because this NE D has to be on pace to be, if not already, the best in that category.

This team has not scored less than 13 points in my league's system all year (which may be above average as we get points for 3-and-outs, blocked kicks, and both yards and points allowed).

They are at 29.50 tonight for me at around the 3 min mark left in the game, and through this season so far, averaging a whopping 25.5 points per game, with a high of 41 point in Week 2.

They are scoring like an RB1 -- maybe like a QB1 -- so far this year.

This torrid streak has to come back to earth at some point. But they are literally the main reason I am atop the standings right now, and I am sure it's the same for those like me with the foresight to draft them, or those lucky enough to grab them on the wire in the first week or two of the season.

It's absolutely ridiculous. Yes, they have the great benefit for being in a 10-ply division (not you, Bills, you are definitely solid competitors), but this D is not only solid with great players at all 3 levels, but they play incredibly opportunistically and with true cohesiveness.

Is this the best all-time fantasy D?

Will they crash back to earth midseason when their schedule isn't so ridiculously soft (Cle, @Bal, @Phi, Dal, @Hou, KC)?

Edited by Stompin' Tom Connors
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Let’s see what happens when they play real teams. I don’t know if I’ve ever seen a softer schedule with the combination of garbage teams and injuries.

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1 hour ago, RealReactions said:

Lol "foresight". Nobody saw this coming. You aint nostradamus. 

Anyone who did their research knew how good this defense was going to be.

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1 minute ago, tjnc09 said:

Anyone who did their research knew how good this defense was going to be.

This is correct. I have them in my subscriber contest and tried to get them in my Superflex league but got sniped.

They totally shut the Rams down in the Super Bowl and were killing teams on defense, save Kansas City, who nobody stops. 

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1 hour ago, RealReactions said:

Lol "foresight". Nobody saw this coming. You aint nostradamus. 

I don't think anyone, least of all me, would ever claim they saw this level of performance coming.

But I drafted them. I targeted them for a number of reasons.

1) Top 5 in turnovers last year

2) Top 10 in points allowed

3) They lost Flowers but gained Bennett, who was Top 5 in EDGE pressures on QB, filling in the gap that Flowers left open

4) Among the top best run stopping units last year, in addition to the solid LB corps they also came into the season sporting one of the better secondaries with McCourty and Gilmore

5) Cupcake schedule.

I drafted them ahead of consensus Ds like MIN, LAC, NO, PHI, and DEN. I was mocked for it, but was confident in the selection based on schedule and a top-to-bottom solid unit.

So no, I didn't see this point storm brewing, much as I don't know if it's going to last.

But I am damned sure taking credit for seeing them being one of the top units this year. 

Who did you draft, bud?

Edited by Stompin' Tom Connors
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22 minutes ago, Dr. Dan said:

No

No, what, Dr. D.? Seems like they deserve a mention for these first six weeks as an all-time fantasy defense. At least in the past ten years I've been playing, this is the best start to a defensive team I've ever seen. 

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I’m a diehard steeler fan but it’s clear they do it better.  Brady and Belichick give them an edge but they play the rest of the game better.  They throttle offensive and defensive team talent versus the NFL wishes and salary cap way better than anyone else.  They get players to play for less, get rid of almost every non football distraction and move on before they get moved on.  As a steeler fan we had PLENTY of chances both back with our dominant D AND with our dominant O.  Look at what they do and look at what you do.  

This year is one of the easiest years.  Stop the run game. It’s not great.  Run the ball. They mostly stop it by being ahead.  Don’t #### up.  They will kill you quick.  And as always..pressure Brady.  They are really good at being less imperfect than you.  

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2 hours ago, Cobbler1 said:

Let’s see what happens when they play real teams. I don’t know if I’ve ever seen a softer schedule with the combination of garbage teams and injuries.

Uh, why wouldn't you want to draft a defense that plays a soft schedule?  

 

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They also held a healthy Roethlisberger and Pittsburgh to three points.  

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7 minutes ago, tjnc09 said:

They also held a healthy Roethlisberger and Pittsburgh to three points.  

You are  pretending if you think that was the same Steelers O.   That ####show is far from over.  Steelers O is completely unsettled

Edited by infantsam

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With due respect to the Patriots, they have had the softest of schedules, including a Roethlisberger that clearly needed surgery and looked like he was going through the motions out on the field. 

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4 hours ago, rockaction said:

This is correct. I have them in my subscriber contest and tried to get them in my Superflex league but got sniped.

They totally shut the Rams down in the Super Bowl and were killing teams on defense, save Kansas City, who nobody stops. 

The Indianapolis Colts would like to have a word with you...

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Just now, Arodin said:

The Indianapolis Colts would like to have a word with you...

True dat. Missing their best two receivers, though. But that's no excuse even if I feel the need to point it out...

Great job by the Colts to flat out play and dominate the clock at the end running the football and using short passes to move the chains. Kudos!

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4 hours ago, tjnc09 said:

Uh, why wouldn't you want to draft a defense that plays a soft schedule?  

 

I wasn’t commenting on whether or not they should have been drafted as that wasn’t the topic of discussion. I was commenting on whether they are/will be one of the greatest fantasy defenses ever and to me they’ll have to produce against real teams to achieve that. Get it?

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6 hours ago, rockaction said:

No, what, Dr. D.? Seems like they deserve a mention for these first six weeks as an all-time fantasy defense. At least in the past ten years I've been playing, this is the best start to a defensive team I've ever seen. 

I just think it's a little early to be having this discussion. 

Should we be talking about if Godwin is an all time fantasy wr? 

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I think the Bears between 2006-2008 range (forget the exact seasons) were the best D/ST I've seen. Not only was the Defense awesome, but they had Hester returning kicks. 

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3 minutes ago, Dr. Dan said:

I just think it's a little early to be having this discussion. 

Should we be talking about if Godwin is an all time fantasy wr? 

Definitely a fair point.

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I like what Tags did on his podcast this week when asked the one person he was right on so far this year and he said no, it’s too early. Sure it’s a bit different for defenses because there’s no one injury that sidelines them but it’s still only week 6. 

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43 minutes ago, shadyridr said:

They are a cheat code this year. 

True. Though I think of them more like having Oddjob in your lineup. 

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3 hours ago, SeniorVBDStudent said:

The real test starts in Week 9....tough 5 game stretch.

At the moment, the offense is so anemic that it may take the shine off the defense.

Yes, it's why I think Miami has a better shot at 0-16 than New England has at 16-0.

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I don't know how they stack up all time, but the team in my league that has them is likely going to start 6-0, despite being awful at RB/WR. With even the 3rd or 4th best defense, that team is likely 2-4 or even 1-5. 

Pats D is the 2019 fantasy MVP so far for sure.

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Who is toughest PLAYER they've had to face through SIX games? Juju?  

Never seen such a cakewalk of a first 3rd of a season...so we shall see 

Edited by dahabi

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9 minutes ago, dahabi said:

Who is toughest PLAYER they've had to face through SIX games? Juju?  

Never seen such a cakewalk of a first 3rd of a season...so we shall see 

Historically, NE has feasted on a) rookie QB's and b) QB's 25 and younger, and c) QB's that haven't faced them before.

Their remaining QB's they face:
Darnold (22)
Mayfield (24)
Jackson (22)
Wentz (27 . . . never played against NE)
Prescott (26 . . . never played against NE)
Watson (24)
Mahomes (24)
Dalton (32)
Allen (23)
Rosen (22)

Bottom line, other than Dalton, everyone else should struggle some just based on youth, inexperience, and confusion by what NE runs defensively. As you said, we shall see, but the way things appear on the surface they should still be a top fantasy defense moving forward. Not sure getting as many defensive TD's is sustainable, but their other numbers should still be strong.

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Their schedule may be the biggest cakewalk that I have ever seen.

PIT, @MIA, NYJ, @BUF, @WAS, NYG,@NYJ, CLE, @BAL, bye, @PHI, DAL, @HOU, KC, @CIN, BUF, MIA

Next two games are great matchups.  BAL isn't a terrible matchup, as Jackson has shown to turn the ball over.  They have a 4 tougher matchups from week 11-14 after their bye.  Assuming a NE D owner gets a Week 14 bye, CIN and BUF are great matchups during the fantasy playoffs.

In my keeper league, I own the NE D, and the NE D has scored 141 points over 6 weeks.  Pretty ridiculous numbers.  They will obviously come back to earth, but they will still be a great weekly start.

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3 hours ago, Dr. Dan said:

I just think it's a little early to be having this discussion. 

Should we be talking about if Godwin is an all time fantasy wr? 

Not going to argue about it being too soon, as they have stronger opponents ahead. 

But the bolded is a really poor analogy.

In my league, there are 3 WRs within less than 7 points of Godwin.

The difference b/w NE and the next biggest scoring D in my league is 74 points. 

I don't think I've ever seen that kind of spread before, which prompted the post.

4 minutes ago, fightingillini said:

Their schedule may be the biggest cakewalk that I have ever seen.

PIT, @MIA, NYJ, @BUF, @WAS, NYG,@NYJ, CLE, @BAL, bye, @PHI, DAL, @HOU, KC, @CIN, BUF, MIA

Next two games are great matchups.  BAL isn't a terrible matchup, as Jackson has shown to turn the ball over.  They have a 4 tougher matchups from week 11-14 after their bye.  Assuming a NE D owner gets a Week 14 bye, CIN and BUF are great matchups during the fantasy playoffs.

In my keeper league, I own the NE D, and the NE D has scored 141 points over 6 weeks.  Pretty ridiculous numbers.  They will obviously come back to earth, but they will still be a great weekly start.

I'd argue that the Jets have the biggest cakewalk between weeks 9 and 14 than NE or any other team in the league - @MIA, NYG, @WAS, OAK, @CIN, MIA.

As for NE, was interesting to see the Giants keep it close through the half/midway Q3. I don't think the Jets will be firing on all cylinders but can see CLE's offense, if clicking, giving them a run for their money, and to your point, BAL -- while inconsistent this year -- can play some stout D to limit run-ups in score. PHI, DAL, HOU, and KC are all going to be solid tests.

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11 hours ago, RealReactions said:

Lol "foresight". Nobody saw this coming. You aint nostradamus. 

Obviously not to this extent, but I drafted them based on the matchups on their schedule.  It's just paying off at a higher rate than expected.

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They have taken advantage of the easy schedule and played well. They have been extremely lucky with Touchdowns as I never recall seeing two blocked punt TDs in a matter of weeks. 

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Sell high if you can.

The Patriots have great DB's but the rest of the D is good but not great in my opinion. The Bears, Buffalo and SF are the D's to own after NE ends the easy part of their schedule. No way they come close to keeping up this pace with turnovers and Defensive TD's. This has been the all time best schedule to start a season for a Defense. I'm thrilled to have them on one of my teams but I know this won't last. They are this years Mahomes.

I think the Jets are a great D to stash given their upcoming schedule and the fact that they should be good once they get healthy and Darnold is back.

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2 minutes ago, Mongidig said:

Sell high if you can.

The Patriots have great DB's but the rest of the D is good but not great in my opinion. The Bears, Buffalo and SF are the D's to own after NE ends the easy part of their schedule. No way they come close to keeping up this pace with turnovers and Defensive TD's. This has been the all time best schedule to start a season for a Defense. I'm thrilled to have them on one of my teams but I know this won't last. They are this years Mahomes.

I think the Jets are a great D to stash given their upcoming schedule and the fact that they should be good once they get healthy and Darnold is back.

The defensive TD's will fade, but the rest of their totals should stick. The secondary is great at playing the ball, so they should continue to force turnovers . . . and by extension they will get a lot of coverage sacks. They drive young QB's nuts (as well as QB's that never faced them). IMO, even without the TD's on defense, they are still the top defense rest of schedule.

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4 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

The defensive TD's will fade, but the rest of their totals should stick. The secondary is great at playing the ball, so they should continue to force turnovers . . . and by extension they will get a lot of coverage sacks. They drive young QB's nuts (as well as QB's that never faced them). IMO, even without the TD's on defense, they are still the top defense rest of schedule.

Tend to agree. They can't possible keep scoring TDs or blocking kicks like they have. 

They have a super solid secondary, which makes them tough to pass on; playing a 3-4 with solid run-block and pass coverage LBs helps if they funnel opponents to the run, or defending slot/screen passes. With great coverage, gives more time to the pass rush.

It is really reminiscent of BB's old Giants' Ds with LT. Not as in they have a player of LT's caliber, but in terms of effective system and approach.

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The OP's question is difficult to answer given the vast proliferation of scoring systems for DSTs. 

What we can say is that since 2001, and under FBG standard scoring, the highest total for a season was turned in by the 2012 Bears, at 189 points (11.8 ppg).  This year's Patriots were at 60 in 5 games before last night (12.0 ppg) -- on pace for 192 points over 16 games.

The Pats' average will get a bit of a bump after another great score last night, but they'll have to keep the pace in order to finish as the best DST of all time.

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You want to hear something funny?  The owner of the new England def in my league is dead last and also dead last in points.  Lmao

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22 minutes ago, Mongidig said:

Sell high if you can.

The Patriots have great DB's but the rest of the D is good but not great in my opinion. The Bears, Buffalo and SF are the D's to own after NE ends the easy part of their schedule. No way they come close to keeping up this pace with turnovers and Defensive TD's. This has been the all time best schedule to start a season for a Defense. I'm thrilled to have them on one of my teams but I know this won't last. They are this years Mahomes.

I think the Jets are a great D to stash given their upcoming schedule and the fact that they should be good once they get healthy and Darnold is back.

Nobody will give you equal or greater value for a defense. They are a hard hold and the only match up i see that has me worried at all is chiefs. They have a great playoff schedule and if you own ne d you are most likely in position to make the playoffs already.

Edited by Weebs210

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5 minutes ago, Stompin' Tom Connors said:

Tend to agree. They can't possible keep scoring TDs or blocking kicks like they have. 

They have a super solid secondary, which makes them tough to pass on; playing a 3-4 with solid run-block and pass coverage LBs helps if they funnel opponents to the run, or defending slot/screen passes. With great coverage, gives more time to the pass rush.

It is really reminiscent of BB's old Giants' Ds with LT. Not as in they have a player of LT's caliber, but in terms of effective system and approach.

BB discussed the defense the other day. He said they went at lest 20 players deep with most of the back ups interchangeable with the starters without much drop-off. That also allows them to rotate players more, keep guys fresh, and play size matchups to maximize what they get out of their players. BB taking over the defense this year didn't hurt either. Unlike some NE teams in recent seasons, they are goof up front, in the secondary, and their LB's have greatly improved. There really isn't a glaring area that needs work. Maybe other, better teams will expose more as the season progresses, but for now they look stacked. Also people should know that BB teaches his guys to straddle the line for what refs will call as penalties. And if they aren't going to flag the team very often, they will continue to get away with mugging people. The new PI review policy only enhances that, as they pretty much know the booth isn't going to call DFI on a replay. BB exploits the rule like no other.

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2 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

The defensive TD's will fade, but the rest of their totals should stick. The secondary is great at playing the ball, so they should continue to force turnovers . . . and by extension they will get a lot of coverage sacks. They drive young QB's nuts (as well as QB's that never faced them). IMO, even without the TD's on defense, they are still the top defense rest of schedule.

I picked them because I loved the schedule, figured they would be playing with the lead most of the time, great coaching etc. I agree they will be a top D the rest of the way. The positional advantage they are providing is massive. However,   I think once NE goes on their bye things won't be nearly as easy. I also think you can gain a positional advantage by doing a good job of streaming given the historically horrific teams available to play against. 

I'd be willing to bet that the Jets score more more points than the Patriots D after the Pats Bye week.

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8 minutes ago, need2know said:

You want to hear something funny?  The owner of the new England def in my league is dead last and also dead last in points.  Lmao

In my league same guy owns CMC, Aaron Jones, and NE def and is somehow only 3-2.

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9 hours ago, infantsam said:

You are  pretending if you think that was the same Steelers O.   That ####show is far from over.  Steelers O is completely unsettled

🤣 I'm sure losing their starting QB in the second game has nothing to do with it.

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4 hours ago, Cobbler1 said:

I wasn’t commenting on whether or not they should have been drafted as that wasn’t the topic of discussion. I was commenting on whether they are/will be one of the greatest fantasy defenses ever and to me they’ll have to produce against real teams to achieve that. Get it?

Let me know when you go back to the other "greatest fantasy defenses ever" and analyze how they performed against real teams.  I guarantee their schedule was soft as butter too.  Get it?

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11 minutes ago, Mongidig said:

I picked them because I loved the schedule, figured they would be playing with the lead most of the time, great coaching etc. I agree they will be a top D the rest of the way. The positional advantage they are providing is massive. However,   I think once NE goes on their bye things won't be nearly as easy. I also think you can gain a positional advantage by doing a good job of streaming given the historically horrific teams available to play against. 

I'd be willing to bet that the Jets score more more points than the Patriots D after the Pats Bye week.

I'll take this bet. What are we putting down?

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1 hour ago, Stompin' Tom Connors said:

PHI, DAL, HOU, and KC are all going to be solid tests.

 

HOU offensive line is Swiss cheese, the game itself may or may not be close but for fantasy purposes the NE Def shouldn’t have much trouble getting some points thru sacks. KC showed themselves to be actually human if you can get pressure on Mahomes and their offensive line has struggled the last few games.

 

A few years ago there was a long dynasty thread on here that started out with somebody bragging about paying a high price for a defense (Broncos during the No Fly Zone era maybe?) it paid off short-term but I seem to recall their scoring fell off later in the year when the cupcakes fell off the schedule and games got colder and the passing slowed down.

 

Edit: good info on the Jets Def

Edited by Buckna

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26 minutes ago, davearm said:

The OP's question is difficult to answer given the vast proliferation of scoring systems for DSTs. 

Agree, it's why I was looking for average stats, not totals. Averages will still be sensitive to different scoring systems, but potentially less so than just looking at raw point differentials.

15 minutes ago, shadyridr said:

In my league same guy owns CMC, Aaron Jones, and NE def and is somehow only 3-2.

That is truly surprising.

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27 minutes ago, tjnc09 said:

Let me know when you go back to the other "greatest fantasy defenses ever" and analyze how they performed against real teams.  I guarantee their schedule was soft as butter too.  Get it?

Yes well if I actually wanted to analyze whether a team or player was amongst the greatest all time I would do exactly that. Which was my point and then you oddly stated something about schedule and drafting which wasn’t at all related. So again let’s see how they do against real teams.

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IMO, this one will be really hard to answer as there are so many wrinkles and permutations based on league scoring. For example, the FBG Historical Data Dominator does not include points for blocked kicks or blocked kick returns. Most of my leagues also score for limiting points scored and yardage allowed. So the advantage they have vs. other teams this year could vary greatly.

The other thing that hasn't come up yet is that offenses do a lot more today than in prior seasons (say Bears of the 80's, Ravens of 2000, etc.), so much tougher to limit offenses than in the past when the offensive numbers were lower to begin with. It's similar in baseball. Which pitcher had the better season? PITCHER A who had a 2.10 ERA in a year when the league average was 3.20? Or PITCHER B who had a 2.60 ERA in a year when the league ERA was 5.20?

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The OP asked greatest fantasy D.  So far I would say yes.  Best D, probably not.

Before last night the non QB top 10 in my league was....

McCaffrey 144.1

Cook 112.7

Ekeler 109.8

Godwin 103.6

A. Jones 102.7

NE D 100

Cooper 97.2

Kupp 95.4

Thomas 94.8

Chark! 92

With 127 points now it's possible that only McCaffrey will have more, that's crazy!  They're pretty much the reason I'm 4-1.  Never played AB, lost Barkley and Howards 2 points a week didn't help.

Edited by arctic_panzer_wolf

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