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Educate me on pitfalls of using possible points to determine draft order (1 Viewer)

JohnnyU

Footballguy
I know there has been threads on this subject which I never read because I never thought I would need to.  Please use this thread to tell me negatives to using possible points to determine draft order in a dynasty league.  We currently do not allow tanking and you can't start players on a bye, but there is a new owner who has made a couple attempts at tanking and said he was doing it because of our league format where we use standings, then points to determine draft order.  I won't allow teams to bench their best players for scrubs and will make the change if necessary.  I hate doing that however.

PP is no different than tanking when teams can just shred their bench for 3rd and 4th rd picks, giving other teams very good players for cheap.  

 
None, all leagues should do it.  It's far more indicative of roster strength and team health.  Even worse when you have taxi spots where the players aren't even eligible to start so it's not even "tanking" in that regard.

 
It's better because it doesn't tempt players to tank.  Intentionally losing by setting a bad lineup is much, much worse than trading away bench depth for picks. 

The former is tanking, the latter is good strategy.  You want to incentivize the latter. 

I like leagues that have a toilet bowl with modest reward, or something else clever that also incentivizes the owners to score points late into the season and fantasy playoffs. 

 
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It can be manipulated easily.  First, get rid of any healthy backup quarterbacks. Second, invest in young receivers who are missing time but aren't seriously injured like Nkeal Harry and Christian Kirk, and high upside running backs that aren't producing yet like David Montgomery, Miles Sanders and Devin Singletary. Third, treat it like a best ball - you want to lose, so avoid boom/bust players like DeSean Jackson, or guys like Metcalf, Hollywood, Isabella etc. (Unless you only carry a couple of receivers - then those guys are fine). And finally if the rules don't prevent tanking, don't carry kickers or defenses.  

 
It can be manipulated easily.  First, get rid of any healthy backup quarterbacks. Second, invest in young receivers who are missing time but aren't seriously injured like Nkeal Harry and Christian Kirk, and high upside running backs that aren't producing yet like David Montgomery, Miles Sanders and Devin Singletary. Third, treat it like a best ball - you want to lose, so avoid boom/bust players like DeSean Jackson, or guys like Metcalf, Hollywood, Isabella etc. (Unless you only carry a couple of receivers - then those guys are fine). And finally if the rules don't prevent tanking, don't carry kickers or defenses.  
I don't understand the last sentence.  Also, to me the biggest issue is someone dumping very good players for 4th rd rookie picks just to clear out their bench of anyone that can score substantial points.  Doesn't it encourage it more in PP than non-PP leagues?  Is that fair to the entire league when someone does this?  Isn't that just another form of tanking?

 
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I don't think it is the best measure of best/worst.  The strongest teams have plenty of studs that can put up solid numbers every week.  I've got one league where I'm 3-4, but "coulda won" all four.  For example, I've got Mecole Hardman, Demarcus Robinson, and Byron Pringle on my roster as flex options, and I think I've picked the wrong one every dang week.

 
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I don't like the inconsistency of applying different sets of criteria for playoff seeding and draft seeding.  The best way to prevent tanking is to apply appropriate incentives. My suggestion (which always falls upon deaf ears) is to bump up league fees 25% and dole out winnings for highest cumulative scores for weeks 1-4, 5-8, and 9-12.  So for example, in a 12 team $100 league, this adds three $100 prizes to be awarded during the season, which ought to keep everyone highly motivated (I could be wrong about this).  Also it takes some of the sting out of injuries and randomness that befalls us all.

Alernatively, assuming no one would tank in weeks 1-4, award $100 prizes to high cumulative scores for weeks 5-7, 8-10, and 11-13.  It might even lead to more aggressive trading as teams try to manage their way through bye weeks. 

 
All ways can be circumvented.  The best way to prevent this is to have quality owners that do the right thing for the competitiveness of the league realizing that doing the right thing for the sake of the league is more important that the incremental benefit from "tanking". 

 
All ways can be circumvented.  The best way to prevent this is to have quality owners that do the right thing for the competitiveness of the league realizing that doing the right thing for the sake of the league is more important that the incremental benefit from "tanking". 
That's all nice but isn't reality.

 
That's all nice but isn't reality.
It can be reality in regards to playing inferior lineups and purposely playing people that are out or on bye.  That is really the only thing every owner should be doing no matter what.  Making trades to improve your future team when you are in rebuild is not a problem for the integrity of the league.  That is an owner trying to make his team more competitive in the long run. 

Getting owners that always play their best lineup is what you want.  If you have that you don't have to worry about tanking and that can be reality with good owners. 

 
It can be reality in regards to playing inferior lineups and purposely playing people that are out or on bye.  That is really the only thing every owner should be doing no matter what.  Making trades to improve your future team when you are in rebuild is not a problem for the integrity of the league.  That is an owner trying to make his team more competitive in the long run. 

Getting owners that always play their best lineup is what you want.  If you have that you don't have to worry about tanking and that can be reality with good owners. 
Last paragraph, easier said than done 100%

 
If it’s not the method used for rankings during season/playoffs, how is it fair to change to different method for draft order?

 
Alernatively, assuming no one would tank in weeks 1-4, award $100 prizes to high cumulative scores for weeks 5-7, 8-10, and 11-13.  It might even lead to more aggressive trading as teams try to manage their way through bye weeks. 
Dynasty owners care more about building a winner than a few bucks awarded for not tanking.

 
NBA lottery system for non playoff teams
The problem with that is that in a dynasty league you want the worst teams to get better.   If they have bad luck in the lottery it would hurt their chances of getting better.

 
The problem with that is that in a dynasty league you want the worst teams to get better.   If they have bad luck in the lottery it would hurt their chances of getting better.
in many cases the worst teams are the worst teams because they make bad draft picks.  That doesn't necessarily change with improving of draft order.  The draft is a crap shoot most years and the years that aren't there is only usually 1 or 2 "sure" players.  Tanking for draft spot in fantasy seems like a poor idea in many ways most of which is that it doesn't make a huge difference one way or the other if you can't identify talent anyway (which is where I see most bottom dwellers in my leagues).  Sure occasionally you have a team with bad injury luck have an off year but usually they have a good enough team that winning the draft "lottery" by finishing poorly just elevates a better team anyway. 

FF is mostly luck.  Draft picks are helpful at times but it isn't a magic potion. 

 
in many cases the worst teams are the worst teams because they make bad draft picks.  That doesn't necessarily change with improving of draft order.  The draft is a crap shoot most years and the years that aren't there is only usually 1 or 2 "sure" players.  Tanking for draft spot in fantasy seems like a poor idea in many ways most of which is that it doesn't make a huge difference one way or the other if you can't identify talent anyway (which is where I see most bottom dwellers in my leagues).  Sure occasionally you have a team with bad injury luck have an off year but usually they have a good enough team that winning the draft "lottery" by finishing poorly just elevates a better team anyway. 

FF is mostly luck.  Draft picks are helpful at times but it isn't a magic potion. 
Tell that to the team that had the first three picks the year Julio Jones, A J Green, and Mark Ingram (me) were drafted.  Tell that to the Zeke owners of the 1.1.  Tell that to the Barkley owners of 1.1.

 
If you make changes when guys sit their stars... if is at DJ week 6 even though he was healthy and played someone else, would you have forced me to play DJ since he was active? 

 
Tell that to the team that had the first three picks the year Julio Jones, A J Green, and Mark Ingram (me) were drafted.  Tell that to the Zeke owners of the 1.1.  Tell that to the Barkley owners of 1.1.
I said occasionally there is one or two "sure" things but it isn't all the time.  Draft picks are overrated in dynasty in my opinion.  Owners that "tank" for picks or trade away aging yet useful for a couple more year vets for picks are always rebuilding (in my experience).  Too many dynasty owners play for next year instead of the current year and are always trying to catch up. 

 
If you make changes when guys sit their stars... if is at DJ week 6 even though he was healthy and played someone else, would you have forced me to play DJ since he was active? 
The guy playing DJ didn't know that ;)   Bad luck I suppose.  Let's face it, there isn't a great solution to this problem in dynasty leagues.  Perhaps PP is the best of the worst solutions, or just let anyone tank if they want to.

 
I said occasionally there is one or two "sure" things but it isn't all the time.  Draft picks are overrated in dynasty in my opinion.  Owners that "tank" for picks or trade away aging yet useful for a couple more year vets for picks are always rebuilding (in my experience).  Too many dynasty owners play for next year instead of the current year and are always trying to catch up. 
You made it sound like it's an every year occurrence that the draft is a crap shoot.  It isn't a lot of years at the top.

 
The guy playing DJ didn't know that ;)   Bad luck I suppose.  Let's face it, there isn't a great solution to this problem in dynasty leagues.  Perhaps PP is the best of the worst solutions, or just let anyone tank if they want to.
Just curious, and cherry picking an example that shows how dangerous that can be. 

It's a tough position to be in. I personally don't have a problem with having a fire sale and tanking that way (the Miami way). Put your best guys in your lineup regardless. 

I've played in leagues where total points were used for non playoff teams, and standings for playoff teams. Standings for all. Total points for all but the top 2... now I'm in a lottery league which is goofy but something different so I'll try it. I think PP is interesting and probably leaves the least room for tanking. You could always have a rule of tanking =forfeiting your 1st round pick, or being moves to 1.12 for all picks, at your discretion. Give guys a chance to defend their lineup decisions and if its BS they're done. or if tanking is suspected they are not asked back. next owner gets 1.1 which is appealing. 

Lots of ways, but no fool proof way

 
Just curious, and cherry picking an example that shows how dangerous that can be. 

It's a tough position to be in. I personally don't have a problem with having a fire sale and tanking that way (the Miami way). Put your best guys in your lineup regardless. 

I've played in leagues where total points were used for non playoff teams, and standings for playoff teams. Standings for all. Total points for all but the top 2... now I'm in a lottery league which is goofy but something different so I'll try it. I think PP is interesting and probably leaves the least room for tanking. You could always have a rule of tanking =forfeiting your 1st round pick, or being moves to 1.12 for all picks, at your discretion. Give guys a chance to defend their lineup decisions and if its BS they're done. or if tanking is suspected they are not asked back. next owner gets 1.1 which is appealing. 

Lots of ways, but no fool proof way
All that would do for the part bolded is create an uproar in the league and finding a replacement owner.  You might as well just lock out the guy tanking and replace him the next year.  I agree it's a dangerous slope to re-insert stud players when teams try to bench him for a scrub, but the opposite is even more dangerous.   What about the guy he's competing with for the higher pick?  What about the guy who's fighting for a playoff spot with the guy given the easy win?

 
All that would do for the part bolded is create an uproar in the league and finding a replacement owner.  You might as well just lock out the guy tanking and replace him the next year.  I agree it's a dangerous slope to re-insert stud players when teams try to bench him for a scrub, but the opposite is even more dangerous.   What about the guy he's competing with for the higher pick?  What about the guy who's fighting for a playoff spot with the guy given the easy win?
yeah we had an issue with this in one of my leagues. Guy has been sitting some of his better players, and "forgot" to start Freeman this last week. He frequents this board occasionally. He didnt deny his tanking. Hes overall a complete weasel for doing so. Luckily it didnt matter as he still lost to a playoff team, however it was almost to where had he started Freeman he would have won. 

Hoping he quits the league but who knows. hes isnt a great owner. Our league rules are what they are, and the best we have to prevent it is to add 1.13 for the consolation winner

 
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The problem with that is that in a dynasty league you want the worst teams to get better.   If they have bad luck in the lottery it would hurt their chances of getting better.
meh yes there is a slight chance to end up with the 4th pick but most likely it will be 1 or 2.

So whats the difference if the worst team record wise (their PP) gives them the #2 pick vs the worst team ending up with the #2 

 
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Dynasty owners care more about building a winner than a few bucks awarded for not tanking.
I've been in (redraft) leagues with $$$ penalties for weekly low scores. They were additive, so you paid $5 the first time you had the weekly low, $10 more the second week, $15 more the third week and so on. Believe me, you don't want to peace out the whole month of December and get stuck with a $75 or $105 bill on top of your buy-in. It might be a finer balance to strike in a dynasty, but at the very least it would keep anyone from trying to go full-on Miami.

 
JohnnyU said:
Dynasty owners care more about building a winner than a few bucks awarded for not tanking.
But they still care about money.  Either you can create incentives to prevent tanking, or you can strike up the conversation again next year for the umpteenth time.  

 
It would just add insult to injury when you're trying to win but starting the wrong players. You lose the game because you start a guy who gets hurt the first quarter, then dont even get a better pick out of it.

 
irish eyes said:
If you are not going to do draft order by worst record, then you should not be playing head to head. If you want to do it according to points, then that is format you should play by during the year.
Independent concepts.

 
bostonfred said:
It can be manipulated easily.  First, get rid of any healthy backup quarterbacks. Second, invest in young receivers who are missing time but aren't seriously injured like Nkeal Harry and Christian Kirk, and high upside running backs that aren't producing yet like David Montgomery, Miles Sanders and Devin Singletary. Third, treat it like a best ball - you want to lose, so avoid boom/bust players like DeSean Jackson, or guys like Metcalf, Hollywood, Isabella etc. (Unless you only carry a couple of receivers - then those guys are fine). And finally if the rules don't prevent tanking, don't carry kickers or defenses.  
if somebody is playing for next year, they may want to stockpile guys like Harry, Kirk, Singletary, Sanders, Metcalf, Isabella etc and it snot necessarily tanking....

 

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