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Koya

Saving the PSF - How can we, as a community, make this place better

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13 hours ago, Mene said:

I'm a lurker, as evidenced by my comically low post count relative to the duration of my membership, but I just don't understand why so many of you make this so difficult.  I've had one person on ignore here since this forum opened, and I wound up removing him.  I just don't allow myself to get worked up over his posts, or what anyone posts for that matter.  If someone lies, trolls, insults, attacks, or in any way acts like a tool here, I just move on from their post.  If someone is making an obviously bad faith argument, I disregard it and move to the next post.  There is plenty of really intriguing conversation in this forum, it's just not that hard to disregard the bad actors in my opinion. 

As someone mentioned earlier, a lot of it could be remedied by just staying on topic, and not posting about the poster.  Stop trying to fix the people you think are idiots here.  Ignore them, disregard them, and stay on topic.  There is no value in trying to change the minds of those who you know do not see things the way you do.  Things are too polarized and people on the extremes aren't interested reconsidering their stances.  You aren't going to save the world by pointing out when someone is lying, or obfuscating, or twisting the facts on this forum.  Most people who participate here are plenty engaged and smart enough to know when this is happening, and we don't need board heroes to save us from it.  If those of you who truly want to discuss the topics just talked right past the obvious bad actors, they would run out of steam.  Stop engaging them, stop responding to them, stop feeling like everything needs a reply or a correction.

I've really enjoyed reading the thoughts of a number of the high value posters in this forum.  The aggregation of news that takes place here is second to none.  I do think it would be a loss if this forum goes away, and would greatly reduce the frequency in which I visit these forums... but I do understand.  It's a shame though, we are in some truly unique times politically, and it's been fantastic to come here and read the discussions that take place about these times.  I share KCitons view, I'm a level below many of the posters who's content I value when it comes to IQ.  That's why I really enjoy reading their content, they give me something to think about, an angle I didn't consider, a perspective I do not have.  It would be a loss if this went away, but I understand.  It's just a shame.  

Lurkers of the PSF unite! 

I don't have much to add to Mene's post as he's covered the majority of my sentiments.  I just don't want to see this place go without letting the decision makers know that there are some of us who consider this subforum to be an excellent source of not only information, but also behavior.  It's a shame the (few) bad actors and their actions are getting more attention than the (mostly) courteous and insightful posters whose goals are to understand, enlighten and sometimes entertain.

I recognize I'm owed nothing, but if this place is shut down, I didn't want it to go without voicing my desire to keep it available.

#SaveThePSF

J

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6 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Well tell you what @Ghost Rider, how about this? I won’t leave it up to the Mods then. I’ll leave it up to you. You and @Ramblin Wreck and my other biggest critics here. I have just made several pledges. If any of you guys feel like I have broken them at any time, say so and I will leave permanently. I’ll trust your judgment on this. 

No thanks. I have no interest in that kind of power. 

For the record, I don’t think you’re a bad guy by any means. I just think you can’t help yourself when it comes to posting in a style that stirs it up.  

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23 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

I acknowledge this.  I absolutely try not to be, but I have certainly been hostile when I shouldn't have been.  I try to apologize later.  I've also been taken as hostile when I'm not trying to be, which is something that happens a lot in here, too.  Tone is difficult in typed words.

Heck, the conversation you and I have been having in here has been the subject of private messages sent to me to stop publicly attacking you, and I don't think I'm doing that now.  We should all be more charitable with each other's positions.

I appreciate this and totally agree with your last point.  

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I think something many people should do is read and catch up on an entire thread prior to replying.  I think a major contributor to the dog pile effect is a knee-jerk “oh no, this cannot stand” reaction to a post/poster.  There’s a really good chance that someone has already responded to whatever issue you might have, just keep reading and find out before posting

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Just now, Ghost Rider said:

No thanks. I have no interest in that kind of power. 

For the record, I don’t think you’re a bad guy by any means. I just think you can’t help yourself when it comes to posting in a style that stirs it up.  

I’m a grown man. I can certainly help myself. As some people know here, my wife is in AA. So whenever I hear “you can’t help yourself” I think of what she’s gone through- sober for almost 3 years now. Compared to that this is nothing at all. 

But I agree with you that talk is cheap. Assuming (hopefully) that we still have a forum several months from now, judge me then. 

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18 hours ago, timschochet said:

Simply put: discuss the issue and not the poster.

This becomes next to impossible when the "issue" is not a stance or political ideal but a tactic.  Not to mention when some posters refused to discuss the issue(s) and instead repeat the same talking points over and over.

This is like saying "Hey, don't talk about Ndamukong Suh.  The issue is stomping on people."

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3 minutes ago, timschochet said:

You too @supermike80. I’ll trust your judgment as well. I apologize that you took my earlier post the way you did; my fault for not making it more clear. If you feel that from this point forward I have broken any of my pledges I will leave. 

This would go against my principles.  I'm 100% Ok with different opinions.  And I don't have to ignore people, or ask them to leave....I can't stress how terrible an idea I think that is.  If I don't agree with you, I might tell you, I might not...but I respect your opinion and I respect the opinion of every poster on this board.  I don't want to censor anyone.

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Just now, OrtonToOlsen said:

This becomes next to impossible when the "issue" is not a stance or political ideal but a tactic.  Not to mention when some posters refused to discuss the issue(s) and instead repeat the same talking points over and over.

This is like saying "Hey, don't talk about Ndamukong Suh.  The issue is stomping on people."

Not sure I understand your post .  Do you mean to say when someone repeats the same opinion, like, yes, that polls are not very effective, eventually discussing the issue isn't enough and it's time to discuss the poster?

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1 minute ago, OrtonToOlsen said:

This becomes next to impossible when the "issue" is not a stance or political ideal but a tactic.  Not to mention when some posters refused to discuss the issue(s) and instead repeat the same talking points over and over.

This is like saying "Hey, don't talk about Ndamukong Suh.  The issue is stomping on people."

If you really feel that some posts are what you think are tactics or talking points, don’t respond to those. 

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2 minutes ago, timschochet said:

If you really feel that some posts are what you think are tactics or talking points, don’t respond to those. 

You're not my real dad.

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3 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

Not sure I understand your post .  Do you mean to say when someone repeats the same opinion, like, yes, that polls are not very effective, eventually discussing the issue isn't enough and it's time to discuss the poster?

That's not what I meant to say at all.  Mainly because that's a very awkward sentence to read. 

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9 minutes ago, Cowboysfan8 said:

Which part of that post do you disagree with?

Primarily the viewpoint.  "Attacking mob mentality" is the big concern I have in the following sentence.

Quote

If anyone questions there is a attacking mob mentality around here sometimes they are absolutely blind

I certainly agree that lots of people respond the same way to the same post - that's generally a function of everyone reading the thread and coming to a post and responding to it.  No one is breaking out the pitchforks and torches, it's usually each individual responding as he or she feels is appropriate (whether it is or not.)  And I certainly acknowledge that can feel like a mob attack, but it's not some concerted effort by a group.  It's the same thing that happened with Bender's post in this thread - several people responded the same way, over time, believing he was attacking someone.  Even after it was already sorted out that he was kidding.  Because people read a thread and sort of mini-"Hipple" it.  

I don't think a group was dogpiling on Bender.  And I don't think he thinks that either.

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11 minutes ago, That one guy said:

I think something many people should do is read and catch up on an entire thread prior to replying.  I think a major contributor to the dog pile effect is a knee-jerk “oh no, this cannot stand” reaction to a post/poster.  There’s a really good chance that someone has already responded to whatever issue you might have, just keep reading and find out before posting

 

1 minute ago, Henry Ford said:

Primarily the viewpoint.  "Attacking mob mentality" is the big concern I have in the following sentence.

I certainly agree that lots of people respond the same way to the same post - that's generally a function of everyone reading the thread and coming to a post and responding to it.  No one is breaking out the pitchforks and torches, it's usually each individual responding as he or she feels is appropriate (whether it is or not.)  And I certainly acknowledge that can feel like a mob attack, but it's not some concerted effort by a group.  It's the same thing that happened with Bender's post in this thread - several people responded the same way, over time, believing he was attacking someone.  Even after it was already sorted out that he was kidding.  Because people read a thread and sort of mini-"Hipple" it.  

I don't think a group was dogpiling on Bender.  And I don't think he thinks that either.

Yes, @That one guy, that's a good way of putting what I was trying to say.

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4 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

 

Yes, @That one guy, that's a good way of putting what I was trying to say.

He has a good point

Imo the “mob mentality” around here is when everyone disagrees with a posters opinion on something, then it turns into “don’t feed the troll”, “put him on ignore!!!” , “he voted for Gary Johnson rolleyes” etc.  from the same crew.

It happens all the time

 

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8 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

Not sure I understand your post .  Do you mean to say when someone repeats the same opinion, like, yes, that polls are not very effective, eventually discussing the issue isn't enough and it's time to discuss the poster?

IMO, labling and dismissing points as talking points is abused. 

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4 minutes ago, Cowboysfan8 said:

He has a good point

Imo the “mob mentality” around here is when everyone disagrees with a posters opinion on something, then it turns into “don’t feed the troll”, “put him on ignore!!!” , “he voted for Gary Johnson rolleyes” etc.  from the same crew.

It happens all the time

 

He has a good point and you and dpk  have a good one behind the entrenched absolute statement that will cause people on the other side to become more entrenched, I agree.  

Edited by Henry Ford

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15 hours ago, Joe Bryant said:

Again, money is not the issue. There isn't a dollar amount I'd put up with to be accused of subjugating the truth and limiting people's ability to disagree. With a product that's mostly snark, condescension, bullying anyone with a different opinion and vitriol. I'm sick of enabling that. 

Trying to catch up here, and I feel responsible for you feeling accused of anything - as I've stated, I truly believe you are doing your best, with all the best intentions, and would never purposefully look to do any of the above.

I do hope we here can right the ship in time, as there is no other resource of which I know that provides the depth of discussion and intellect from a range of perspectives (granted, there are less pro-trump posters here than would be representative of the general population, but we still get that perspective and far more range otherwise than I know of on any other forum). 

Either way, many thank you @Joe Bryant your ongoing patience and to have provided us this FREE outlet.

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Just now, jon_mx said:

IMO, labling and dismissing points as talking points is abused. 

I agree. There’s a belief on both sides of the argument that “the only way you could believe something this [dumb, disingenuous, ridiculous, obviously false, whatever] is if you’re parroting what someone else famous already said.”  Which, even if it is based on what someone said, suggests a complete lack of personal agency and critical thinking and serves to start the conversation off with an insult. 

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Man, my phone screen is killing me today. It’s cracked. Please forgive my missing words and even more necessary edits than usual. 

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1 minute ago, Henry Ford said:

I agree. There’s a belief on both sides of the argument that “the only way you could believe something this [dumb, disingenuous, ridiculous, obviously false, whatever] is if you’re parroting what someone else famous already said.”  Which, even if it is based on what someone said, suggests a complete lack of personal agency and critical thinking and serves to start the conversation off with an insult. 

"There can be no debate about this, it's fact"

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Just now, supermike80 said:

"There can be no debate about this, it's fact"

Sometimes that’s appropriate.  Sometimes it’s not.  When you’re talking about words open to serious interpretation based on personal definitions and opinions (“attacking mob”) it often isn’t. 

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14 hours ago, shader said:

People want to argue politics. If they block the people they argue with, they can’t argue.

I don't know that this is always the case. Some of us want to discuss politics. Some are willing to embrace new ideas, turn new leafs, even give up on or evolve long standing positions.

It's just such a heated time in our history, with SO much on the line.  Those on one side of the aisle feel that hundreds of years of "their way of life" is at stake, while others feel that the underpinnings of our very democracy are under assault.  It's hard to reconcile that.  However, there is still so much more to be gained by discourse than by silence.  And there are SO many silo's out there that truly are only one sided (yes, I understand some feel this board is one-sided. I'd respectfully disagree and suggest, as noted above, that we have more vantage points here than any other forum I know, understanding that there is not the representation of the right side of the aisle that aligns with Trump and his allies as there is in the general population), this board provides such an opportunity for us to be exposed to new ideas and learn.

But I get that WE are enjoying a FREE board that may be interfering with the lives and business of our hosts. Again, I hope we can correct our course and change our behaviors - ME INCLUDED - to evolve into a better community without losing all it provides.

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10 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

Primarily the viewpoint.  "Attacking mob mentality" is the big concern I have in the following sentence.

I certainly agree that lots of people respond the same way to the same post - that's generally a function of everyone reading the thread and coming to a post and responding to it.  No one is breaking out the pitchforks and torches, it's usually each individual responding as he or she feels is appropriate (whether it is or not.)  And I certainly acknowledge that can feel like a mob attack, but it's not some concerted effort by a group.  It's the same thing that happened with Bender's post in this thread - several people responded the same way, over time, believing he was attacking someone.  Even after it was already sorted out that he was kidding.  Because people read a thread and sort of mini-"Hipple" it.  

I don't think a group was dogpiling on Bender.  And I don't think he thinks that either.

Another great example of humor (or our understanding of it via the written word) gone awry.  I thought your original reply to me was an attempt at humor, which is why I reacted with the laughing reaction, not an actual thought.  
 

The dog pile I mainly refer too is the one person posting an opinion and 27 people going after that person. Now while it absolutely could be what you and @That one guy say it is, and that is likely a part of it, it’s also more then that.  But regardless of what the reasons are when  27 people are going at one person unrelentingly it’s going to feel dog pile/mob mentally-ish.  

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“There is a monument to George Washington in D.C.” isn’t open to debate. “There is a phallic structure celebrating the patriarchy called the Washington Monument” is of course open to debate. Even though they attempt to describe the same thing. 

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Just now, dkp993 said:

Another great example of humor (or our understanding of it via the written word) gone awry.  I thought your original reply to me was an attempt at humor, which is why I reacted with the laughing reaction, not an actual thought.  
 

The dog pile I mainly refer too is the one person posting an opinion and 27 people going after that person. Now while it absolutely could be what you and @That one guy say it is, and that is likely a part of it, it’s also more then that.  But regardless of what the reasons are when  27 people are going at one person unrelentingly it’s going to feel dog pile/mob mentally-ish.  

I do not at all disagree that is what it feels like.  And that the person feeling it has every right to feel that experience.  

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18 minutes ago, timschochet said:
21 minutes ago, OrtonToOlsen said:

You're not my real dad.

Look son you’re the one who responded to me. 

You need to work on your Foghorn Leghorn impression.

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14 hours ago, Don't Noonan said:

:jawdrop: 60-40???????

95 - 5 is way more closer

I don't know about 95-5, but i'd suggest it's closer to that than 60-40.  As I noted, that doesn't mean we don't get a wide range of positions, but I do believe it's far less representation of ardent Trump supporters than elsewhere and within the general population. 

 

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1 minute ago, dkp993 said:

Another great example of humor (or our understanding of it via the written word) gone awry.  I thought your original reply to me was an attempt at humor, which is why I reacted with the laughing reaction, not an actual thought.  
 

The dog pile I mainly refer too is the one person posting an opinion and 27 people going after that person. Now while it absolutely could be what you and @That one guy say it is, and that is likely a part of it, it’s also more then that.  But regardless of what the reasons are when  27 people are going at one person unrelentingly it’s going to feel dog pile/mob mentally-ish.  

If it helps, also, I was attempting humor. Then Cowboy wanted to discuss it, so I tried to do so seriously. 

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I'm an FFA'er and a Shark Pool guy.  I don't believe I have ever posted in the PSF, nor do I remember liking any comment in the PSF.  I do come to read some topics that I find interesting and that I want to see what some of the viewpoints are.  

I am usually disappointed.  Here is my take.

I have even seen some of the issues in other threads creep into this thread, which is intended to discuss ways to stop those kinds of issues.  I only read the first page.  My thoughts for solutions are in bold.

1.  Within a half a dozen posts of this thread, someone is pointing the finger and blaming "the other side".  Just stop.  

2.  Bashing the president is normal and accepted.  This will be true no matter who is president.  Bashing people for differing views is normal and accepted.  This should not be tolerated.  I know its hard to monitor every post.  Maybe follow the "be excellent to each other" motto.

3.  It seems like every person is 100% convinced they are 100% RIGHT! on every issue.  Nobody in this forum seems to even acknowledge the fact they may not be right.  A lot of these issues are not right and wrong issues, and yet people can't even listen to dissenting view points without getting triggered.  When people project their own values on other people, and those values don't match up, then you get the "you're a horrible person if you can't see this" posts.  Understand that people have different backgrounds, religious upbringing, circumstances, lifestyles, and influences.  That's ok.  Its what makes reasonable debate and opposing viewpoints possible. Embrace diversity of thought.

4.  Trolls.  People saying things just to get a rise.  It does nobody any good.  If I had this answer, I think I'd be rich.

5.  Not being able to tell the difference between trolling and someone's honest opinion.   Just because you think it is crazy, doesn't make it trolling.  It might be, but is it really worth your time to challenge it?  Don't feed the trolls.  If it is so outrageous that you think it is trolling, let it pass.  It's not worth your time, and it won't change the world.

6.  I think people just don't get that you aren't changing anybody's mind in here.  People aren't coming in here to discuss issues.  I really wish this were different.  You might actually have a chance at changing someone's mind, or at least make them consider an alternate point of view, if you are willing to do the same.  Very few are, from what I have seen.  Respect other people's opinion.  Realize that it is opinion and its based on variable within their own history.  Don't project your values on other people and expect them to think the same way as you.  You will just be disappointed.  Realize that you might actually promote reasonable discussion if you make a good counter point without being accusatory.

7.  People digging into people's posts and looking for a way to turn the words around instead of taking what is said at face value.  I see this a lot.  Again, it doesn't move the conversation is a productive direction.  Take it at face value. Stop trying to win the argument by making inferences.  Ask for clarification, and when someone asks you for clarification, give it.  Don't do this in a snide manner.   Don't be offended by it.  Not everyone thinks the same and even teachers have to find different ways to explain the same concept to make people understand it.  

I don't even know if most of that makes sense because I don't always convey my thoughts clearly when I write.  I really wish that I could come in here and have reasonable discussion with people, but I just feel like there are very few people who are interested in doing that.  Maybe you got caught up in the way things have gone in the PSF, but I know there are very intelligent, very informed posters in here, and whether I agree with their beliefs or not, I want to hear them all because I want to understand how you got to that way of thinking.  I guess what I am trying to say is its up to YOU to be better.  Its up to YOU to make this forum a place where people don't feel ostracized for their beliefs.  Its up to YOU to not be a troll.  This country will remain divided as long as people aren't willing to listen to opposing views.  Stop stooping to the level of the politicians you are so inclined to bash.  We are being divided by the people who are elected to unite us.  I can't think of a more perfect irony.  Be better.

 

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28 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I’m a grown man. I can certainly help myself. As some people know here, my wife is in AA. So whenever I hear “you can’t help yourself” I think of what she’s gone through- sober for almost 3 years now. Compared to that this is nothing at all. 

But I agree with you that talk is cheap. Assuming (hopefully) that we still have a forum several months from now, judge me then. 

I’m in no position to judge anyone; I am merely making observations based off what I have seen. I am certainly a flawed poster as well. 

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1 minute ago, Mister CIA said:

You need to work on your Foghorn Leghorn impression.

Don’t we all?

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1 minute ago, Henry Ford said:

If it helps, also, I was attempting humor. Then Cowboy wanted to discuss it, so I tried to do so seriously. 

Glad to see my humor radar wasn’t completely on the fritz.   

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1 minute ago, Caesar said:

I'm an FFA'er and a Shark Pool guy.  I don't believe I have ever posted in the PSF, nor do I remember liking any comment in the PSF.  I do come to read some topics that I find interesting and that I want to see what some of the viewpoints are.  

I am usually disappointed.  Here is my take.

I have even seen some of the issues in other threads creep into this thread, which is intended to discuss ways to stop those kinds of issues.  I only read the first page.  My thoughts for solutions are in bold.

1.  Within a half a dozen posts of this thread, someone is pointing the finger and blaming "the other side".  Just stop.  

2.  Bashing the president is normal and accepted.  This will be true no matter who is president.  Bashing people for differing views is normal and accepted.  This should not be tolerated.  I know its hard to monitor every post.  Maybe follow the "be excellent to each other" motto.

3.  It seems like every person is 100% convinced they are 100% RIGHT! on every issue.  Nobody in this forum seems to even acknowledge the fact they may not be right.  A lot of these issues are not right and wrong issues, and yet people can't even listen to dissenting view points without getting triggered.  When people project their own values on other people, and those values don't match up, then you get the "you're a horrible person if you can't see this" posts.  Understand that people have different backgrounds, religious upbringing, circumstances, lifestyles, and influences.  That's ok.  Its what makes reasonable debate and opposing viewpoints possible. Embrace diversity of thought.

4.  Trolls.  People saying things just to get a rise.  It does nobody any good.  If I had this answer, I think I'd be rich.

5.  Not being able to tell the difference between trolling and someone's honest opinion.   Just because you think it is crazy, doesn't make it trolling.  It might be, but is it really worth your time to challenge it?  Don't feed the trolls.  If it is so outrageous that you think it is trolling, let it pass.  It's not worth your time, and it won't change the world.

6.  I think people just don't get that you aren't changing anybody's mind in here.  People aren't coming in here to discuss issues.  I really wish this were different.  You might actually have a chance at changing someone's mind, or at least make them consider an alternate point of view, if you are willing to do the same.  Very few are, from what I have seen.  Respect other people's opinion.  Realize that it is opinion and its based on variable within their own history.  Don't project your values on other people and expect them to think the same way as you.  You will just be disappointed.  Realize that you might actually promote reasonable discussion if you make a good counter point without being accusatory.

7.  People digging into people's posts and looking for a way to turn the words around instead of taking what is said at face value.  I see this a lot.  Again, it doesn't move the conversation is a productive direction.  Take it at face value. Stop trying to win the argument by making inferences.  Ask for clarification, and when someone asks you for clarification, give it.  Don't do this in a snide manner.   Don't be offended by it.  Not everyone thinks the same and even teachers have to find different ways to explain the same concept to make people understand it.  

I don't even know if most of that makes sense because I don't always convey my thoughts clearly when I write.  I really wish that I could come in here and have reasonable discussion with people, but I just feel like there are very few people who are interested in doing that.  Maybe you got caught up in the way things have gone in the PSF, but I know there are very intelligent, very informed posters in here, and whether I agree with their beliefs or not, I want to hear them all because I want to understand how you got to that way of thinking.  I guess what I am trying to say is its up to YOU to be better.  Its up to YOU to make this forum a place where people don't feel ostracized for their beliefs.  Its up to YOU to not be a troll.  This country will remain divided as long as people aren't willing to listen to opposing views.  Stop stooping to the level of the politicians you are so inclined to bash.  We are being divided by the people who are elected to unite us.  I can't think of a more perfect irony.  Be better.

 

I agree with much of this, disagree with some. But no one can dispute that you make a great salad. 

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Just now, dkp993 said:

Glad to see my humor radar wasn’t completely on the fritz.   

Kind of an anti-German racist position, but we can let that go for now. 

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4 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

Kind of an anti-German racist position, but we can let that go for now. 

“Now that’s a funny guy” (in my best Ray Liotta impression)

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4 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

I agree with much of this, disagree with some. But no one can dispute that you make a great salad. 

Thank you.  I do love croutons.

As I said, its an outsiders viewpoint.  I certainly haven't read every topic, but the ones I have all seem the same.  

I would love to have a real conversation about immigration, gun control, foreign policy, healthcare, taxes, etc.  I have these conversations in real life when given the chance. They are always civil.  Why can't they be here?  anonymity?   I guess it's easier to spout off when there is no chance you get punched in the face.

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13 hours ago, Don't Noonan said:

This forum allows me to talk politics with knowledgeable folks on the other side and helps me understand where they are coming from.  Sure, certain trolls attack me for an opposing view but it is a public message board and I could care less.  There have been some positive exchanges in this thread so hopefully folks will change.

🤝

@Don't Noonan - I pledge to be more excellent in my responses to you (they are rarely exchanges, and I'll take responsibility for much of that).

If I can ask you a very sincere and honest question, and I hope you take it in that manner:

One of the issues on this board is a feeling that some posters are purposefully putting out falsehoods.  It goes both ways, and I know you personally have been at the center of many such accusations, and perhaps indeed, attacks - and I know you have accused others of engaging in such behavior.  FYI, this post is not to suggest either you nor they (nor me) is right or wrong, but more a question of how we should handle such posts in the future, in the spirit of being better to one another and fostering more constructive discourse.

If/when that should occur in the future, what is the best means for us to substantively engage... how do we have a constructive discussion rather than the ping pong "you lied" to lead to a "no I didn't" type he said/she said?

I mean this sincerely, as I think we all want to abide by what would be consider the truth (I'd hope so at least).  And obviously the same goes for those that you see make a statement that you believe is at best not fully true, and potentially a flat out lie.

This seems to be a core issue, and again this is not about blame or whether its true or not since we likely differ in that opinion. It's about how should we react to others when we see something repeatedly stated that we feel has been shown to not be representative of the truth.

I do look forward to your answer and hope you see this in the positive spirit in which my question intends. Thank you.

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12 hours ago, Max Power said:

This thread kills me. It's the same talking points as the last 3 or 4 like it and often this theme is repeated in the moderation thread.

The common sense answers are given on page 1 every single time. If people truly wanted to rise above the BS, they would.

Some have hardcore views that can't be swayed, yet others insist on trying. Some probably bicker because they are bored. Some just have to win an arguement. 

The be nice to each other works a bit, but at the end of the day we are all humans and all here for different reasons. We're coming to this board to vent, question, discuss, troll... whatever that person's outlet is. 

If there is something you cant stand around here, block it/them and move on. 

I know Joe took some heat for the last time he said we should all get out more, but he was right. Next time you get worked up from this place, take a pause and go out and enjoy life for an hour. This place ain't going anywhere...

Some of us  took that break for a year.  But there is a lot of value to so much of this forum, that I literally could not replace, much as I looked.  Sadly, and I am part of the problem as I've admitted, this place MIGHT be going away.  I think that would be unfortunate, but understandable.

Hence, a once last grasp for solutions.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Koya said:

🤝

@Don't Noonan - I pledge to be more excellent in my responses to you (they are rarely exchanges, and I'll take responsibility for much of that).

If I can ask you a very sincere and honest question, and I hope you take it in that manner:

One of the issues on this board is a feeling that some posters are purposefully putting out falsehoods.  It goes both ways, and I know you personally have been at the center of many such accusations, and perhaps indeed, attacks - and I know you have accused others of engaging in such behavior.  FYI, this post is not to suggest either you nor they (nor me) is right or wrong, but more a question of how we should handle such posts in the future, in the spirit of being better to one another and fostering more constructive discourse.

If/when that should occur in the future, what is the best means for us to substantively engage... how do we have a constructive discussion rather than the ping pong "you lied" to lead to a "no I didn't" type he said/she said?

I mean this sincerely, as I think we all want to abide by what would be consider the truth (I'd hope so at least).  And obviously the same goes for those that you see make a statement that you believe is at best not fully true, and potentially a flat out lie.

This seems to be a core issue, and again this is not about blame or whether its true or not since we likely differ in that opinion. It's about how should we react to others when we see something repeatedly stated that we feel has been shown to not be representative of the truth.

I do look forward to your answer and hope you see this in the positive spirit in which my question intends. Thank you.

Can you define what you deem to be a "falsehood" please?

You created the thread with that opinion and it gave me pause, now I see you doubling down on it so I'd like to see if you might be willing to clarify that position.

Edited by supermike80

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9 hours ago, ren hoek said:

@Joe Bryant

The sad part for me is, I think this place rules.  Hard to reconcile that with the idea that it's too toxic for us to make it work.  Like others have said, it's a historical record that we've invested tons of time and thought into.  It's easy enough to ignore/scroll past the stuff that isn't worth the time.  When I get dunked on, I think about what I said and then I come back another day.  Our nonsense is decoupled from the FFA too so it doesn't mess up their good times anymore.   

I know it's just 'words on a screen' but this place gave me a real outlet for discussion that is hard to find IRL.  If it was just a business decision, I'd gladly help pay the money you'd otherwise be making, but I know it's a lot bigger than that.

When you end the PSF, I hope you'll consider locking it away to some place really embarrassing, like a basketball test forum sub-board where we can still see it in the future.  I'll still keep it in the very first bookmark.  Having a place to write and relate to other people has been a real gift over the years.  I think you and the mods did what you could.  Sad to see it end this way, but I respect your decision.  We tried!  

 

@ren hoek - I'd like to personally apologize for any accusations I've said that were out of line.  I could say more to provide nuance, but feel it may run counter to the purpose of this thread, and perhaps even better offline. But if I've stated things in a manner that spurred more negativity or feeling of attack than positivity and feeling of discourse, I take responsibility for that.

 

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9 minutes ago, Caesar said:

Thank you.  I do love croutons.

As I said, its an outsiders viewpoint.  I certainly haven't read every topic, but the ones I have all seem the same.  

I would love to have a real conversation about immigration, gun control, foreign policy, healthcare, taxes, etc.  I have these conversations in real life when given the chance. They are always civil.  Why can't they be here?  anonymity?   I guess it's easier to spout off when there is no chance you get punched in the face.

Bingo 

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17 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

I agree with much of this, disagree with some. But no one can dispute that you make a great salad. 

Anchovies in Caesar? Yea or nay? 

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5 hours ago, jamny said:

Joe is spelling it out for us right here. Just treat people with a little respect. As if you are speaking to them face to face. Now, if this is how you treat people IRL, maybe this isn't the board for you. But ask yourself, every time you post, if what you are writing falls into any of these categories. The whole ""transcript" nonsense is a perfect example. Either put Noonan on ignore, scroll past or if you must reply, write "not a transcript" and move on to your actual discussion. No need to badger him over and over on it. Move on!

 

and FWIW, I don't blame Trump. Things have gotten a lot angrier around here since the yoga pants thread and Who's Hottest threads were banned. ;)

Why don't we just have a pinned thread in the PSF "Trump in Yoga Pants" - that should kill the forum all by itself.

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19 minutes ago, Caesar said:

7.  People digging into people's posts and looking for a way to turn the words around instead of taking what is said at face value.  I see this a lot.  Again, it doesn't move the conversation is a productive direction.  Take it at face value. Stop trying to win the argument by making inferences.  Ask for clarification, and when someone asks you for clarification, give it.  Don't do this in a snide manner.   Don't be offended by it.  Not everyone thinks the same and even teachers have to find different ways to explain the same concept to make people understand it. 

Nail on the Head :goodposting:

Countless times, I've been agreeing with posters and because their perception (assuming here...really only explanation I can come up with most of the time) is I am not on their "side" I am obviously saying something different.  It becomes 100% self fulfilling prophecy to those who do it.  No point in discussion with that sort of approach.

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6 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Anchovies in Caesar? Yea or nay? 

nay.  chicken or burst.  

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1 hour ago, knowledge dropper said:

@Joe Bryant
 

The shark move is to kill the PSF and I think you know it.  Nobody is going to miss this forum in a couple of weeks.  Mods are wasting time trying to moderate these slap fights when their tine should be spent on content for paying customers.  In the bar analogy, your waiters and bartenders are spending too much time on the “customers” sitting at the bar drinking water and eating free pretzels.  Additionally, how many warnings can you give about being excellent?  It’s not going to happen about politics.  

Just a week ago you made a well-intentioned post about being more excellent to each other.  Within two days many of the posters in here complaining about putting people on ignore and killing trolls were in the Trump thread objectifying Trump supporters based on a picture they found on the internet.  Your mods had to delete almost an entire page from the ONE Trump thread.

You have to know this forum is hurting your bottom line.  In the fantasy football community (also a key Trump demographic) your site now has a reputation of being anti-Trump.  This is largely due to the mob in the PSF.  

In my opinion, thr smart move is to get out of the politics business.  Most of the people in here begging you not to do this are a large part of the problem.  They aren’t going to stop their stereotyping, agitating, and condescension.  They can’t.  Kill it and let everyone argue about the best Star Wars movie in FFA  

Just my observation and two cents.

 

I think you are right, all allowing this venting forums has done is divide people on the board. Hopefully when they do it it’s done the right way, and not just because of a Trump re-election and the meltdowns that ensue. 

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2 hours ago, jon_mx said:

I think Tim try to fairly capture the issue without really taking sides.  What would be nice if there was some acknowledgement that maybe there is too much hostility in here and we can do better. 

@jon_mx - I agree... can we also acknowledge that there are folks (bof sides... no, for real though, both sides, it's not just pro trump posters) who seem to push buttons that leads to more hostility? Sometimes those inflammatory statements are made on purpose, sometimes that is not the intent, but we can take an extra second to read what we wrote and ask ourselves "is this constructive and will result in more meaningful discussion, or is this emotionally driven and/or will result in he said/she said, or getting people's hairs up"

Perhaps we can take a cue from your comments and have less hostility, but recognize that we need to cool down on making statements that we know will inflame and disrupt, or get to people's nerves, as much so as we need to be less hostile when encountered with a post that we disagree with (or even one that we feel attacks us, either our position or us personally.. try to rise above it)?

Is that fair? Yes, we need to throw less punches.  We also need to be more cognizant not to provoke, certainly not by intent, but even accidentally.

 

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