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Koya

Saving the PSF - How can we, as a community, make this place better

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1 minute ago, Summer Wheat said:

This....I don` think they do it as a "mob" per say.  But there are maybe 10-15 guys who respond the exact same way to opposing views and in a snarky way.  I am on the mob side most of the time but when I have not been they have piled on me as well. I just don`t agree with everything that either side does.  If I don`t like something Pelosi says I am labeled a closet Trumper.   It is crazy.

There should be a way to flag someone when they post something against the rules. Maybe put it in the reaction smilies to the right. If people see that others "on their side"  don't approve of what they wrote, maybe they'd think better next time.

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3 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

Both. 

Only if fresh though. If a restaurant puts canned anchovies on the salad, leave immediately.

 

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13 minutes ago, Sheriff Bart said:

I've found that if I post when I'm completely nude it makes me more compassionate to the views of others.

:useless:

seems like the appropriate emoji

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I've even had people try to McCarthy me and make me go "on record" about my feelings about certain sensitive topics, otherwise they were threatening to infer really bizarre things about my opinions on sexuality, etc. Good thing I was in a hotel room in Spain overlooking the beach or I might have said something that resulted in a long vacation.

Simply put, I come here because I'm bored and want to read, but stuff like that? Makes me really, really not want to be around and makes me consider the worthiness of the forum writ large.

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12 minutes ago, Koya said:

Don't want to further hijack this thread with this one issue - perhaps worth a thread of its own - but there is a difference between opinions and facts. And stating a falsehood but calling it an opinion doesn't change the underlying reality.

Would you prefer if I use the term "lie" - that seems to have a more negative connotation than falsehood, hence my choice of the latter.

Saying that Trump won the most votes in the last election, as one example, would be a lie. It's not an opinion. It's clear fact.  (not suggesting anyone has stated that, but it would be a clear example).

Understood. That's a big part of this time for me. 

I asked people repeatedly to report lies they see.

I asked:

If you see something you think is wrong, please post what you think is accurate. If you can provide a source or link for why you think what you think, that's even better.

If you see someone post something you think is an intentional lie, please report it and then definitely in the report include the link to show where it's obviously a lie and not just a difference of opinion.

The first report I get today is someone reporting this post:

Quote

It means Brennan and Clapper are crapping their pants and Misfud needs witness protection as his life may be in danger.

The message the person attached to the report was: "Another post with no facts behind it.  This account is a troll.  I know you don’t care, but Joe asked us to report this type of post.  This is why the PSF will be killed off."

I don't know who Brennan and Clapper are. I"m assuming the poster thinks they're in trouble. 

But when us allowing a post like "It means Brennan and Clapper are crapping their pants and Misfud needs witness protection as his life may be in danger." is somehow subjugating the truth or limiting someone's ability to disagree, I'm pretty much at the end of the line. 

 

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Just now, rockaction said:

I've even had people try to McCarthy me and make me go "on record" about my feelings about certain sensitive topics, otherwise they were threatening to infer really bizarre things about my opinions on sexuality, etc. Good thing I was in a hotel room in Spain overlooking the beach or I might have said something that resulted in a long vacation.

Simply put, I come here because I'm bored and want to read, but stuff like that? Makes me really, really not want to be around and makes me consider the worthiness of the forum writ large.

You do say more crazy things on a word per minute basis to be honest tho. But you're still embraced :)

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I'm not going to make a decision today when I'm this sad and discouraged.

I've got an important thing I have to be there for this weekend so I'll pick this back up next week. Best to y'all. 

 

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Just now, John Bender said:

You do say more crazy things on a word per minute basis to be honest tho. But you're still embraced :)

Yeah, you know...that's kind of true. I am hardly a paradigm of someone who is beholden to mainstream thought. 

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5 minutes ago, CletiusMaximus said:

Only if fresh though. If a restaurant puts canned anchovies on the salad, leave immediately.

 

Disagree. The original Caesar was made with canned anchovies. 

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1 minute ago, Joe Bryant said:

Understood. That's a big part of this time for me. 

I asked people repeatedly to report lies they see.

I asked:

If you see something you think is wrong, please post what you think is accurate. If you can provide a source or link for why you think what you think, that's even better.

If you see someone post something you think is an intentional lie, please report it and then definitely in the report include the link to show where it's obviously a lie and not just a difference of opinion.

The first report I get today is someone reporting this post:

The message the person attached to the report was: "Another post with no facts behind it.  This account is a troll.  I know you don’t care, but Joe asked us to report this type of post.  This is why the PSF will be killed off."

I don't know who Brennan and Clapper are. I"m assuming the poster thinks they're in trouble. 

But when us allowing a post like "It means Brennan and Clapper are crapping their pants and Misfud needs witness protection as his life may be in danger." is somehow subjugating the truth or limiting someone's ability to disagree, I'm pretty much at the end of the line. 

 

It absolutely is not subjugating the truth to post that. That should never have been reported. 

But you needn’t be at the end of the line. Just start suspending people who waste your time with foolish reporting. It will go away very quickly. 

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2 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

Understood. That's a big part of this time for me. 

I asked people repeatedly to report lies they see.

I asked:

If you see something you think is wrong, please post what you think is accurate. If you can provide a source or link for why you think what you think, that's even better.

If you see someone post something you think is an intentional lie, please report it and then definitely in the report include the link to show where it's obviously a lie and not just a difference of opinion.

The first report I get today is someone reporting this post:

The message the person attached to the report was: "Another post with no facts behind it.  This account is a troll.  I know you don’t care, but Joe asked us to report this type of post.  This is why the PSF will be killed off."

I don't know who Brennan and Clapper are. I"m assuming the poster thinks they're in trouble. 

But when us allowing a post like "It means Brennan and Clapper are crapping their pants and Misfud needs witness protection as his life may be in danger." is somehow subjugating the truth or limiting someone's ability to disagree, I'm pretty much at the end of the line. 

 

If things like this are being reported you might just as well shut it down. Seriously what a waste of time 

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9 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

I'm not going to make a decision today when I'm this sad and discouraged.

I've got an important thing I have to be there for this weekend so I'll pick this back up next week. Best to y'all. 

 

Maybe shut it down for a few weeks and give everyone a break. 

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Just now, timschochet said:

Have you no sense of decency sir? At long last? 

*Pounds shoe at U.N.*

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3 minutes ago, HellToupee said:

If things like this are being reported you might just as well shut it down. Seriously what a waste of time 

Yeah If that’s the detritus Joe is having to weed through there’s no hope for this place. If people can’t express a simple opinion about a situation this whole thing is a lost cause. 

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4 minutes ago, Mile High said:

Maybe shut it down for a few weeks and give everyone a break. 

Sounds like the die has been cast already. 

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4 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

Disagree. The original Caesar was made with canned anchovies. 

I have a transcript from the Roman waiter who actually served the salad to Ceasar.  The dressing was made with canned anchovies, which is fine, but he required fresh anchovies on the salad itself under penalty of death by lion.

 

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19 minutes ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

Also it would be nice to discuss those topics without constantly involving Trump, which never ends well.  I can't tell you the number of times I've posted an opinion on a subject and get 10 replies "So you won't be voting for Trump in 2020 then?" or some similar reply that's nothing to do with the actual subject.   It ends the discussion every single time.

I mean go ahead and have a thread for Trump sucks.  Doesn't bother me one bit.  It's when it comes into every other thread it's awful.  I mean you can't discuss AOC or anyone else without a bunch of B-b-b-b-but Trump posts.  

Absolutely

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There have been a lot of good thoughts in this thread. After reading through them, I have some of my own for Joe and the rest of you to consider.

What kind of posts do we want here? Civil discussion of substantive issues where people share information and their analysis of it with each other.

What kind of posts do we not want here? Everything else.

That includes:

  • Foul language and personal insults.
  • Complaining about foul language and personal insults.
  • Criticism of the moderation except in the thread designated for that purpose.
  • Trolling.
  • Accusations of trolling.
  • Criticism of other posters instead of their ideas.
  • Complaints about being criticized personally.
  • Emojis or one-liners that add nothing to the discussion.
  • Complaints about emojis or one-liners that add nothing to the discussion.
  • Whining about how horrible the PSF is.
  • Calling out people for their whining.

Let's stop all of that stuff. In other words, please don't engage in bad behavior, and also, please don't play board cop when you see others engaging in bad behavior. Report it if it's egregious. Whether you report it or not, don't respond to it. Don't call it out. That's what causes all the pointless bickering. Just ignore it and move on. If you can't ignore it by exercising self-restraint, then ignore it by using Invision's ignore feature. I think moderators should start giving generous suspensions both to the people who troll and to the people who accuse others of trolling; to the people who get personal and to those who complain about it; to the people who post nothing but a laughing emoji and to the people who call it out.

Also, while you yourself should probably ignore a number of specific posters, you should not tell others to ignore specific posters.

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1 minute ago, dkp993 said:

Yeah If that’s the detritus Joe is having to weed through there’s no hope for this place. If people can’t express a simple opinion about a situation this whole thing is a lost cause. 

Not just that it's being reported. That's one thing to waste the moderators time like that.

The far bigger thing for me is accusations that when we do allow a post like "It means Brennan and Clapper are crapping their pants and Misfud needs witness protection as his life may be in danger." somehow means me and my forum are "subjugating the truth" or limiting someone's ability to disagree. That's far worse than just whining about a post. 

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13 minutes ago, rockaction said:

I've even had people try to McCarthy me

You mean force you to ignore your constituents for 9 years and lie about starting your own deli from scratch? 

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1 minute ago, Joe Bryant said:

Not just that it's being reported. That's one thing to waste the moderators time like that.

The far bigger thing for me is accusations that when we do allow a post like "It means Brennan and Clapper are crapping their pants and Misfud needs witness protection as his life may be in danger." somehow means me and my forum are "subjugating the truth" or limiting someone's ability to disagree. That's far worse than just whining about a post. 

Understood.  It’s hard not to take that personal Joe, I totally get it.  Just sucks as I really enjoy this place.  

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36 minutes ago, John Bender said:

I mean, all of us have expressed the want for dissent and discussion. he's literally the definition of an internet troll. I think 5 or 6 months ago and I paraphrase "I just love seeing liberals getting riled up" - Dont Noonan. That's a troll. That's it and that's all. Then he comes here and cries about being outnumbered. Hit someone and run behind the teacher and cry number 1 suspect. 

Deleted to follow mt’s guidance above

Edited by BassNBrew
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2 minutes ago, OrtonToOlsen said:

You mean force you to ignore your constituents for 9 years and lie about starting your own deli from scratch? 

No, but just because they haven't done it doesn't mean they haven't thought about it. 

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19 minutes ago, jamny said:

There should be a way to flag someone when they post something against the rules. Maybe put it in the reaction smilies to the right. If people see that others "on their side"  don't approve of what they wrote, maybe they'd think better next time.

Good call. There should be a reaction smiley that says: "I'm not reporting this, but you should check yourself before you wreck yourself and also maybe edit your post before it gets you into trouble."

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2 minutes ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

Good call. There should be a reaction smiley that says: "I'm not reporting this, but you should check yourself before you wreck yourself and also maybe edit your post before it gets you into trouble."

:clyde:  I like this one.

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One more thing.  The laughing reaction emoji is being used by the opposition as a stand alone when they disagree.  I am guilty of this myself sometimes and will do my best to stop.  All it does is instigate further attacks and is not productive.

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7 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

Understood.  It’s hard not to take that personal Joe, I totally get it.  Just sucks as I really enjoy this place.  

Joe stated it is not going away.  Just moving in a different direction and talking on different topics.  It will be all the same people jut talking on a different subject.  Seems like this decision has been in the making on for some time.   Maybe it will work out better and people will be happier after adjusting. After a month or two in the FFA maybe even the people that hate each other will forgive and forget.

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26 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

I'm not going to make a decision today when I'm this sad and discouraged.

I've got an important thing I have to be there for this weekend so I'll pick this back up next week. Best to y'all. 

 

GLGB

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2 minutes ago, Summer Wheat said:

Joe stated it is not going away.  Just moving in a different direction and talking on different topics.  It will be all the same people jut talking on a different subject.  Seems like this decision has been in the making on for some time.   Maybe it will work out better and people will be happier after adjusting. After a month or two in the FFA maybe even the people that hate each other will forgive and forget.

No. I'm saying we need to decide if this political forum continues to exist. 

The FFA and Shark Pool would stay as they are with a non flexible stance on not allowing political topics. 

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32 minutes ago, Don't Noonan said:

For what it's worth, I am willing to bury the hatchet if you are.

My personal opinion here: Be willing to bury your hatchet whether he is willing to do so or not.

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11 minutes ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

Good call. There should be a reaction smiley that says: "I'm not reporting this, but you should check yourself before you wreck yourself and also maybe edit your post before it gets you into trouble."

I'm not sure democratizing that will do anything but confuse people given that posters attribute bad faith so often to comments. I'm just...not sure that it provides useful feedback. Sounds like it's ripe for abuse or venting or disagreement. There are some people here to whom an issue or certain words or topics are so settled that to even arouse inquiry would result in that emoji.

I'm sorry to pooh-pooh an otherwise cool idea, but I don't think it will work. 

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12 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

Understood. That's a big part of this time for me. 

I asked people repeatedly to report lies they see.

I asked:

If you see something you think is wrong, please post what you think is accurate. If you can provide a source or link for why you think what you think, that's even better.

If you see someone post something you think is an intentional lie, please report it and then definitely in the report include the link to show where it's obviously a lie and not just a difference of opinion.

The first report I get today is someone reporting this post:

The message the person attached to the report was: "Another post with no facts behind it.  This account is a troll.  I know you don’t care, but Joe asked us to report this type of post.  This is why the PSF will be killed off."

I don't know who Brennan and Clapper are. I"m assuming the poster thinks they're in trouble. 

But when us allowing a post like "It means Brennan and Clapper are crapping their pants and Misfud needs witness protection as his life may be in danger." is somehow subjugating the truth or limiting someone's ability to disagree, I'm pretty much at the end of the line. 

 

I didn’t report that post or any like it but I could explain why it was reported.  It doesn’t matter though. What you’re experiencing there is something playing out all over the country and to some extent the world right now. 
 

I don’t know if you watch Evil. Not a bad show. Haven’t decided yet if it’s a good one.  Last night’s episode had a line I loved from Aasif Mondvi, and I have to paraphrase it because I don’t remember the exact wording:

“We live in a world made of pixels. And those pixels can now be manipulated so well that no one knows what’s true anymore. And that makes people believe in lies and conspiracy theories. And I hate it.”

It’s a pretty common sentiment while we figure out everything from made up reports by Stephen Glass to deep fake software.  When people find something they are certain is true and others claim it is absolutely false, that hate really comes out sometimes.  

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6 minutes ago, Summer Wheat said:

Joe stated it is not going away.  Just moving in a different direction and talking on different topics.  It will be all the same people jut talking on a different subject.  Seems like this decision has been in the making on for some time.   Maybe it will work out better and people will be happier after adjusting. After a month or two in the FFA maybe even the people that hate each other will forgive and forget.

Thanks but I understood that.  Was referring specifically to the PSF.  

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21 minutes ago, CletiusMaximus said:

I have a transcript from the Roman waiter who actually served the salad to Ceasar.  The dressing was made with canned anchovies, which is fine, but he required fresh anchovies on the salad itself under penalty of death by lion.

 

I don’t know how to tell you this, but your Roman waiter is a fraud. The original Caesar was made in Tijuana in 1924. 

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16 minutes ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

Good call. There should be a reaction smiley that says: "I'm not reporting this, but you should check yourself before you wreck yourself and also maybe edit your post before it gets you into trouble."

🐏

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3 hours ago, jon_mx said:

I hear you.  But until there is some acknowledgement from the anti-Trump side that they are part of the problem (and being representing 87 percent of the PSF according to MT) and probably the largest part of the problem, I don't see how changing the behavior of a small minority segment is really going to improve things.  

A small minority changing their behavior is an improvement on its own. It doesn't have to lead to a larger improvement in order for it to be worthwhile.

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4 minutes ago, rockaction said:

I'm not sure democratizing that will do anything but confuse people given that posters attribute bad faith so often to comments. I'm just...not sure that it provides useful feedback. Sounds like it's ripe for abuse or venting or disagreement. There are some people here to whom an issue or certain words or topics are so settled that to even arouse inquiry would result in that emoji.

I'm sorry to pooh-pooh an otherwise cool idea, but I don't think it will work. 

🐏

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3 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

I don’t know how to tell you this, but your Roman waiter is a fraud. The original Caesar was made in Tijuana in 1924. 

One of the many great things to have happened in TJ, though most can’t be mentioned in this fine establishment.  

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6 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

Not just that it's being reported. That's one thing to waste the moderators time like that.

The far bigger thing for me is accusations that when we do allow a post like "It means Brennan and Clapper are crapping their pants and Misfud needs witness protection as his life may be in danger." somehow means me and my forum are "subjugating the truth" or limiting someone's ability to disagree. That's far worse than just whining about a post. 

One thing I think about is how you and the mods kind of get forced to look at all the ugliness when doing the mod duties.  If I had to do that, I think my opinion of the board would be much worse than it is.  You guys probably don't have as much chance to see the good because, frankly, you probably have very limited time to enjoy the forum in a more leisurely manner.

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1 minute ago, Henry Ford said:

🐏

I'm not trying to be difficult, but I have absolutely no idea what that is, though it brought a smile to my face for some reason.

What is it? 

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This is a small thing, but I think it may be important.  Some emoticons are vastly different on a computer than they are on the mobile site.  I think it actually leads to some confusion in what people mean at times, especially when they react using an emoji.  "Big horn sheep" is a good example.

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1 minute ago, rockaction said:

I'm not trying to be difficult, but I have absolutely no idea what that is, though it brought a smile to my face for some reason.

What is it? 

Are you on a computer or mobile?

Edit: mobile it's a cute big horn sheep.  Computer it's a weird skinny ram that looks like a mountain goat.

Edited by Henry Ford

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Just now, rockaction said:

I'm not trying to be difficult, but I have absolutely no idea what that is, though it brought a smile to my face for some reason.

What is it? 

"Sheep lie"

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Just now, Juxtatarot said:

One thing I think about is how you and the mods kind of get forced to look at all the ugliness when doing the mod duties.  If I had to do that, I think my opinion of the board would be much worse than it is.  You guys probably don't have as much chance to see the good because, frankly, you probably have very limited time to enjoy the forum in a more leisurely manner.

I've often thought about this, but haven't ever said it. This was well put. 

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