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Future Of The Forum - And Big Thought On The Specific Problem (1 Viewer)

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Joe Bryant

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Hi Folks,

I’m sorry to have dragged this out but I wanted to give this the attention I felt it deserved. I also value you, the people who make this board what it is. So I wanted to be respectful and thorough with a decision here. 

The cut to the chase version is this: 

The Political Forum is not shutting down today. But if it’s going to survive, things will have to change from where they’ve been.

Here’s the (incredibly) long version. 

The Big Picture Of How The Forums Fit With Footballguys

It’s important to understand how the forums fit with Footballguys.

Footballguys is a business. We exist by selling access to our Premium Content covering Fantasy Football. You should buy one. 

The message board forums are able to exist because the Footballguys business is profitable enough to support them. Without Footballguys, the business, the forums go away.

The Footballguys forums are an overall net loss to the business of Footballguys. Forums of this size are expensive to host. Especially when served at the speed people expect them. More importantly, there is significant “mental energy” cost in managing these. Our Moderators all have Footballguys work that generates revenue and contributes to the Footballguys bottom line. Selfishly, I find myself paying a high cost in mental energy with these forums. 

The recent issues where the vitriol seemed boiling over the top once again coupled with a poster I care about accusing me of "subjugating truth" by the way we try to be inclusive on the viewpoints we allow, plus another poster claiming I was limiting people’s ability to express disagreement pushed this over the top. 

I realize it’s selfish, but I put way too much heart, time and effort into a project that loses money to put up with those kinds of negatives. 

It was extremely personal to me, but the reality is it came to a business decision of weighing the “Costs” vs the “Benefits”. 

If we continue as it has been, the Costs simply outweigh the Benefits and the forum can’t survive. I owe it to the people who make a full time living from Footballguys and to the customers who’ve purchased our product to lead this company well. And if the forums become too much of a negative, they’ll go away.

The Question.

This raises an obvious question: If the forums are such a negative, why have them?

The answer is fairly simple. I love community. 

It’s a big part of my real life. And it’s been a big part of my online life. I entered the world of Fantasy Football from the old usenet rec forums. If you know what I mean by that, you know what I mean. From the start of Footballguys, a message board forum was central to our company. Much of our long time staff came to us from the forums. 

For me, the boards are personal. I think many of you feel the same way. 

I love the idea of people gathering and sharing and interacting and encouraging one another. One part of that can be discussing issues. But you need to understand, the issues are secondary to the community. I don’t care much for the wonky details of politics in the PSF. I don’t care that much about reality TV in the Free For All.

I care a great deal about the posters furthering their relationship and feeling more informed as they interact on the boards. So back to the “cost” and “benefit” balance, it’s not like I look at the current Political Forum and say, “Yeah, people are tools to each other and the vitriol and condescension is off the charts, but I learned so much about the impeachment details today it’s all worth it.” 

The “Benefits” value of the impeachment details for today is virtually nil for me. And when the “Cost” is seeing people intentionally be uncool to each other, that’s not a situation that will continue.

The Goal.

I want an open and inviting community where people can be cool to each other and make connections and build relationships. I want to provide a place where issues can be discussed and understanding can be furthered. Even if it’s just better understanding people who don’t think like you. 

The General Problem.

First, the vitriol, condescension, snarkiness, and just general unexcellentness has moved off scale. There are a myriad of reasons and excuses. But what matters to me is the forum has become nearly unreadable. It's a 90-10 split between Anti and Pro Trump where the 10% is just enough to be a foil for the vast majority who use their numbers to shout down the minority. The net result is ugliness all around. There's plenty of blame for bof sidez. 

Coupled with the fact most of you are anonymous. This was a revelation for me this summer when I met a popular FBG here and we took a photo and later I asked about posting the picture on the forums. He was adamantly opposed to posting a picture. He enjoyed having a very bright line between his real life and his FBG life. 

I don’t have that luxury. 

Footballguys isn’t a “secret” thing for me. Everyone I know well knows this is what I do. My family and my kids and all my friends know well what I do. I had the honor of performing the wedding ceremony for some friends last week. When the conversation turned to “What do you do?” (Apparently it was clear I wasn’t a pastor or professional wedding officiator 😉 ) I easily told people I have a company called Footballguys.com with a vibrant forum and encourage them to check it out. I do that all the time. 

And the reality is this forum, and how you folks conduct yourselves, is representative of me.

And I’m not going to have a board where people are intentionally uncool to each other represent me. 

The Specific Problem - Contempt.

This is important.

Everyone loves to blame something else for the problem. It’s the anonymous factor. It’s Donald Trump. It’s the Media Bias. I don’t care much about any of that. The problem is how we behave. I don’t give anyone a pass because they can come up with a story to blame their actions on something else. This is on us.

But here’s the specific problem I see. I’ve thought a lot about this and I feel pretty certain I’m right on this.

The problem is we’ve changed the way we feel about the “other” side. We’ve moved from feeling frustration and anger towards them, to a place where we have contempt for the other side. 

Arthur Brooks has written a good deal about this. Here’s his article from the New York Times.

Here’s my take on it. Contempt is more than anger. Contempt is anger plus disgust. Contempt is degrading the value of a person, and their opinion, to the point that they’re worthless. Or worse. 

Here’s an excellent article discussing contempt as the number one predictor of divorce

And note. Contempt is radically different than arguing or disagreement. 

Disagreement is part of community. If everyone thought the same thing, that’s not much of a forum. 

We NEED disagreement. But, we have to be able to disagree well. We have to be able to disagree and discuss things without devolving into contempt. 

From Arthur Brooks, these are some ways contempt is displayed:

Cutting sarcasm towards another.

Mocking another person.

Sneering at another person. 

Hostile humor at the expense of another.

Eye rolling towards the other person. 

All those can signal to the other person you feel they are inferior. That you may be disgusted with them. And worst of all, that you’re past the point of reasonable discussion. 

Brooks talks about his study of “Motive Attribution Asymmetry”. That’s the dangerous and destructive assumption that your ideology is based in love. While your opponent’s is based in hate. I think it’s absolutely the biggest problem we face on this board and it’s why our dialog has devolved to where it has. This isn’t about Trump. This is about us. 

From the New York Times article

"A 2014 article in The Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences on “motive attribution asymmetry” — the assumption that your ideology is based in love, while your opponent’s is based in hate — suggests an answer. The researchers found that the average Republican and the average Democrat today suffer from a level of motive attribution asymmetry that is comparable with that of Palestinians and Israelis. Each side thinks it is driven by benevolence, while the other is evil and motivated by hatred — and is therefore an enemy with whom one cannot negotiate or compromise."

This has been us. 

And if we don’t change, it’ll be the end of the forums. 

The Solution(s).

Be Excellent To One Another

From the start, I’ve tried to operate these forums with the simple idea from Bill and Ted, “Be Excellent”. I think we’re going to need to expand on that a bit.

First off, and maybe the big one here in what I’ve been talking about is this: 

Don’t act with contempt towards others here.

Not acting with contempt can mean a lot of things. Here are a few:

  • Don’t insult or belittle others. 
  • Don’t intentionally try to make others feel “less than”.
  • Don’t try to show your superiority to others.
  • Don’t make cowardly passive aggressive  sweeping negative generalizations to a group knowing there are specific people in that group. 
  • Don’t use cutting sarcasm towards another.
  • Don’t mock others.
  • Don’t verbally sneer at others.
  • Don’t use hostile humor towards others.
  • Don’t eye roll towards others.
  • Don’t act condescendingly toward others. 
The list could go on. You know what we mean. 

All those would fall under not being excellent to one another. 

I’m going to assume you’re all smart and intelligent people and you’re not a psychopath. Meaning you know what you’re doing. Do the right thing. 

Seek First To Understand. Then To Be Understood.

Dr. Stephen Covey’s 7 Habits of Highly Effective People is one of the cornerstones of how to navigate with people. It’s outstanding. 

One of the most important of the 7 habits is: Seek First To Understand. Then To Be Understood.    

This isn’t complicated. It means a discussion is not a one way street. It's not a blog post. A discussion involves two or more people. And if you’re going to provide any value, you have to listen as much as you talk. Or likely, much more than you talk. And you can’t just listen. You have to seek to understand. 

I get it. It’s been said repeatedly on the forum that some people are “done with” trying to understand the “other side”. If they vote a way or if they support this person, they have zero interest in hearing anything they say. 

I want to say this as gently as I can. If you’re a person who is “done with” trying to understand someone who voted for or supports a particular candidate, this forum is not for you. I fully understand that’s maybe naive or pollyannish. But I make no apologies for it. It’s how we’re going to operate the boards. 

On the upside, trying to understand where someone’s coming from is a huge benefit to your own understanding. And this isn’t about minimizing negatives for another. Or a blind tolerance where everything is ok. It’s about furthering understanding and seeing enough value in the other person to better know them. 

Think about furthering discussion. 

This one may not be obvious to many people. But the board would benefit a good bit if people could step back a bit and try to view it more like I do. I see the board in a bigger picture view hoping for good discussion overall compared to individual threads. 

I see the board sort of like a game of Scrabble. Everyone on Scrabble loves to see a player put down a long word creating lots of opportunities for other players. The equivalent for our forum would be a great post or thread that opens up discussion for others to contribute. In the same way, nobody in Scrabble likes to see a dead end word. Nobody on the board likes to see a post that adds nothing. 

The difference of course is the forum doesn’t keep score like Scrabble. But the goal of expanding opportunities can be the same. 

Practically, this plays out in asking yourself as you're typing a post, “Will this help or hinder discussion?"

Be Professional.

If you know me, you know I complain about the loss of quality journalism. We’re now in a place where speed is more important than accuracy. And stories are spun to fit a viewpoint. 

You can help with this. 

  • Use Links. When you post a story, please don’t just expect people to believe your points. Very often, people will be referencing an article. Include the link. If you’re referencing something else, be clear where you’re getting the information. A regular response in posts should be "Can you please post a link?” using those exact words. With that said, use common sense. If you’re referencing an article, include the article. If you’re stating an opinion, make it clear it’s an opinion. Do NOT use “show me a link” as a way to try and bury an argument asking people for stuff that’s obvious. It’s easy to see what you’re doing there.
  • Understand Media Bias. Get familiar and link often to the Ad Fontes Media Bias chart. It's not infallible. But it's pretty good and accepted. If you post an article from Daily Kos or Red State, understand those links carry a different weight from something from the AP. But worse is no link at all. 
  • Understand your own bias. It’s more than ok to have a viewpoint. It’s part of what makes discussion beneficial. But understand your bias. And understand the bias of others. So be as careful there as you can.
  • Understand spin. It’s easy to compare Fox News to MSNBC and see how two organizations can spin the same story. Do better than both of those.
  • Understand the little jabs. Everyone knows the little words that take a shot at the other side. Don’t do that. 


Discuss The Issue. Not The Other Poster

This one is simple to see. Look at what you’ve typed. Before you press “send”, read the post and ask yourself if your words are about the issue or if they’re negative words about another poster. If they’re about another poster, don’t press send. It’s that simple. 

Someone brought up the Eleanor Roosevelt quote and it’s spot on: "Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people."

And a few more specific ideas.

Maurile posted these a few days ago and they’ve been helpful. I get it these may not line up exactly with mine. Footballguys is big and sometimes contradictory. If you're in doubt, don't post it. 

Here are the rules:

1. If you want to discuss the moderation publicly, do it in the moderation thread. If you do it in a thread about infrastructure, you'll be banned for a week.

2. If you want to offer other posters tips on how they should or shouldn't be posting in this subforum, do it in the saving the PSF thread. If you do it in a thread about occupational licensing reform, you will be suspended for a week.

3. You may also use this thread to discuss moderation or good or bad posting habits.

4. You will be suspended for telling other posters "Don't" or anything similar. (PM them if you are sincerely trying to be helpful.)

5. You will be suspended for telling other posters that their posts are what's wrong with this forum.

6. You will be suspended for saying that somebody else started it.

7. You will be suspended for reminding others about these rules. (Again, send a PM if you are sincerely trying to help.)

8. You will also be suspended for doing all the normal suspension-worthy things like name-calling, etc.

9. You will be suspended.

10. It will no doubt be very unfair.

11. Moderators are exempt from these rules (except no. 8).

What to do if you're suspended:

Take a week off. Go for a walk. Read a book. Start a journal. I understand that gardening can be quite pleasant.

It's not the end of the world if you're suspended. Think of it as us shutting down the forum for a week to see how things go, except that we're shutting it down one poster at a time on a rolling basis instead of doing everybody en masse all at once.

What not to do if you're suspended:

Don't make or use an alias account. Don't come back and complain about your suspension in threads not designated for that topic. Don't urge that a dozen other people should also be suspended because what they did was worse, or because they started it.
That’s pretty much it. 

I’m sorry this took a novel but this is important and personal to me.

It's my desire this forum remain alive. But it will not stay alive unless we change significantly. And that's up to you. My worry is we've done things somewhat like this in the past and things will be cool for a few days. Then it's right back to the old way. That part is up to you.

What I can say without question is if folks aren't able to keep it from getting back to the old way, it will close. 

Thanks for being part of Footballguys and thanks for helping us have a forum we can be proud of. Rock on.

 
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Thanks, Joe. I'm not a huge user these days of the PSF, but I appreciate the willingness to see if maybe these edicts stick and we can treat each other as ends rather than as foils again. There's something good here; we just have to find a way to harness it in a positive way. 

 
Joe,

Thank you.  Your intentions  and effort are examples for us all.
 

We appreciate the last chance. I hope to do my part in creating a better and more welcoming community that looks more for the commonality that binds rather than that which separates. 

A former congressman I know (was very prominent in the Obama admins and a solid guy all around. Brilliant, too) used to say that members of Congress agree on 80% of the issues, but spend 95% of their time arguing about the 20%. 
 

Your point about contempt adds a layer of depth to that reality, as our society seems to have devolved from respectful disagreement to argumentative and angry discord, to what you so eloquently stated. 
 

Please know that the way you and @Maurile Tremblay have handled this whole mess (the less we the posters made, myself certainly included) is a statement about who and what you are as people, as businessmen, and most of all, as leaders of a community with only the best of intentions. You two have been a model of how to stand up and bring people together rather than further separating ourselves. 
 

We may not deserve this lifeline, but again, thank you.  Hope we can emulate the example you provide, because almost all of us believe there is a special quality to these specific boards and this community. Never been more proud to be a part of it after reading your statement. 

 
Great great post. 

The one thing I would add is, largely thanks to Maurile’s new rules, the last week has been about a thousand times better and a lot of the issues you’re concerned about have vanished, at least for now. I know that yesterday a couple of guys got into it but that’s been pretty rare. My impression is that things really have improved. 

 
Joe thank you for the reprieve.  I have come to these forums for a long time.  While I very seldom post I enjoy the meaningful conversations very much.  I have learned a lot here and appreciate the different views on the issues.  I am a subscriber and have been at least 15 years maybe more.  The forums are an added bonus I used the Shark pool a lot when I was addicted to FF.  Now I read the ffa and the political forums more because I really don't play ff much anymore.  I do still subscribe though because I love the subscribers contest.  Again thanks for the reprieve I would hate to have to find another place on the internet for this kind of interaction and entertainment .

 
Very well put, Joe. It should be obvious to anyone that the moment 2 people have an interaction, the chances of them disagreeing on something Very rapidly approaches 100%. It's going to happen. What we do when it happens needs to change. I have seen an improvement over the past week(also found out MT was a mod, just never occurred to me for whatever reason), and I'd like to see more going forward.

 
Don`t really go in the PSF much anymore, and probably many others should take a break for a week or two as well. Too much time talking about the same issues day in and day out has to distort the mind a little and possibly disrupt their normal day to day behavior.

Been going into the FFA more and almost forgot how enjoyable it can be there where there is actually some good natured banter.

 
I hesitate to post in this thread because Joe's post was perfect.

I want to suggest something to the posters in this forum, though.  Recently I mentioned in another thread that it's hard for me to imagine despising someone based solely on posts in a forum (other than @gianmarco's neighbor, who should kindly die in a fire).  It wasn't always that way, but part of the reason that has changed is that I've been able to get to know people outside of the context of the PSF.  

As an example, I used to have a poster here on ignore because I believed he had to be some sort of anarchist (Russian?) bot.  But then we ended up in a music draft together, and I had to get to know another side of him, which turned out to be a great pleasure and made me feel silly for thinking as I had.  I know some also used to accuse the poster Rove! of the same, yet he was also a great contributor to tim's one-hit-wonder thread and I appreciated him for that.  As another personal example, @rockaction actively hated me for years, and I wasn't a fan of his, but then we started to get to know each other in FFA music/movie/other threads, ended up PM'ing a bit, and at this point I consider him genuinely a friend, someone I'd do anything to help if he needed me (despite the fact we still disagree on a lot of political points).

I'm just saying, maybe expand your knowledge of people by getting to know them in the less-hostile confines of the FFA, the Shark Pool, the test forum, etc.  If you see someone post whom you don't much like but with whom it turns out you have mutual interests, respectfully engage them there and get to know another side of them.  Hell, even start some FFA threads of your own to help people get to know you better and see what you guys have in common.  I was very lucky this year to have the opportunity in my Beatles thread to get to know a whole lot of people I hadn't come into much contact with before, and even a few that I might have previously had a negative impression of.  Now there's not a person who posted substantively in that thread that I wouldn't want to have a bottle of wine with.

I don't know, maybe this belongs in the Love Thread or on the curlyboard.

 
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 As another personal example, @rockaction actively hated me for years, and I wasn't a fan of his, but then we started to get to know each other in FFA music/movie/other threads, ended up PM'ing a bit, and at this point I consider him genuinely a friend, someone I'd do anything to help if he needed me (despite the fact we still disagree on a lot of political points).
Ah, krista. I get what you're saying, but maybe offer a slight perspective changer. There hopefully isn't too much revision in this: there was no active hatred, best I can recall. It was a guy trying to join a community and failing and being frustrated at the results of his social endeavor. Things are different now, and I agree with your broader point about getting out of the sociopolitical stuff and into other areas where one might find common ground. That said, if one's outlook is constantly sociopolitical or if their politics is derived from a personal worldview, then even that won't take, but it certainly is worth the effort to at least try it. I know that through the music drafts and other commonalities I've come to hold a great many people in esteem whose political outlook I don't subscribe to. And I find myself politically moving because of the wisdom in other areas. The political, which inevitably is social, is edified yet transformed by deep views about all things in life that one may have not considered. Anyway, too long on my end...Joe's thoughts are, I think, what we'd all like to see for not just the political forum, but the forums in general. That's a nice restatement of affairs upthread. Time for me to bow out.   

 
Joe this is a great post, you have given this more chances and thought than anyone else would and it will definitely not be your fault if it's shut down. 

This is clearly not something profitable for the business and a complete time suck that people need to consider. I was shocked in the poll asking how many posters in here were premium members was not higher. As much mileage as everyone gets out of these forums, specifically the political one.......buy a membership and support this business(even if you don't play fantasy football) as it is a great value for the amount of time being spent in here. Joe is a good dude and would never require this but it needs to be said.......just freaking do it. 

 
Thanks Joe. I respect your point of view and position and admire your desire for civil discourse. I appreciate your willingness to give things another chance. I'll try my best not to be a trouble maker even though admittedly a small part of me naturally rebels at the very idea of placing rules on interactions. This is somewhat silly because I'm not exactly what you would call a "rebel" or a "troublemaker". At least I don't consider myself to be. Anyways, thanks again and have a great football Sunday.

PS - Bactrim antibiotics is the devil. Stay far away. Allergic reactions suuuuuck. 

- the guy covered in rash from head to toe (at least the fever and chills are gone)

 
Joe this is a great post, you have given this more chances and thought than anyone else would and it will definitely not be your fault if it's shut down. 

This is clearly not something profitable for the business and a complete time suck that people need to consider. I was shocked in the poll asking how many posters in here were premium members was not higher. As much mileage as everyone gets out of these forums, specifically the political one.......buy a membership and support this business(even if you don't play fantasy football) as it is a great value for the amount of time being spent in here. Joe is a good dude and would never require this but it needs to be said.......just freaking do it. 
Great post.  

 
Don`t really go in the PSF much anymore, and probably many others should take a break for a week or two as well. Too much time talking about the same issues day in and day out has to distort the mind a little and possibly disrupt their normal day to day behavior.

Been going into the FFA more and almost forgot how enjoyable it can be there where there is actually some good natured banter.
Same

 
I would just shut it down. You'll be much happier not having to moderate what is essentially a toxic subreddit with a collection of users that rely on anonymity in order to act out without any social consequences. I'm a long term member and will support you either way. Ending on a positive note, thanks again for the DFS optimizer!

 
Just to clarify.  It will only be the PSF shut down and not the FFA and SP correct? If so that is understandable. The other forums seem pretty cool.

 
I like to talk politics every now and then, which is one reason I frequented the FFA for so many years when politics threads existed there.

But ever since the PSF was created, I've enjoyed it less and less. Without all the casual comments that you'll get from the topics being in the FFA, the threads are filled with comments from people that are here all the time saying the same things over, and over, and over again. It would probably be a fascinating study of obsessive compulsive disorder.

I find myself getting sick of it and not coming back for days.... then I try it again and eventually find myself not coming back for weeks.... then months..... I'm to the point where I wouldn't be disappointed if the PSF was eliminated. I still like political discussion, and will miss it not being anywhere on the site, but to me it's already gone. The PSF isn't it at all.

I don't think you'll fix it by asking people to change. You might be able to fix it by implementing a post limit, say 3 posts per day, assuming your board software has that feature and could be implemented on the PSF only. But people are going to be who they are, and not who you ask them to be. 

 
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I like to talk politics every now and then, which is one reason I frequented the FFA for so many years when politics threads existed there.

But ever since the PSF was created, I've enjoyed it less and less. Without all the casual comments that you'll get from the topics being in the FFA, the threads are filled with comments from people that are here all the time saying the same things over, and over, and over again. It would probably be a fascinating study of obsessive compulsive disorder.

I find myself getting sick of it and not coming back for days.... then I try it again and eventually find myself not coming back for weeks.... then months..... I'm to the point where I wouldn't be disappointed if the PSF was eliminated. I still like political discussion, and will miss it not being anywhere on the site, but to me it's already gone. The PSF isn't it at all.

I don't think you'll fix it by asking people to change. You might be able to fix it by implementing a post limit, say 3 posts per day, assuming your board software has that feature and could be implemented on the PSF only. But people are going to be who they are, and not who you ask them to be. 
Thank you @Politician Spock  Back to my "the forum is like a Scrabble game" analogy, your post is an 8 letter word down the middle of the board. Lots for me to take off on. 

Your question of "Will people change?" is a good one. It's the primary question I have. And the answer is..."we'll see". 

Some thoughts there. 

And this is an important point. 

I'm not asking for people to change. That's a pretty big ask. I'm asking them to change their behavior. 

That's very different. 

I firmly believe people are not their behavior. I don't want to speak for you, but I'd guess you probably believe this too. 

And behavior can be changed. 

Think about it. It's entirely reasonable a person from this forum might find himself in these places over the course of a week:

  • A casual restaurant
  • A bar
  • A classroom
  • A meeting with their boss
  • A sporting event
The same person, without being duplicitous or deceitful, can behave differently and appropriately in all those places. 

Again, people are not their behavior.

That's what I'm hoping for here. I'm not asking for anyone to change who they are. I'm asking for folks to behave in a way I've tried to line out above. 

Second point. Clear expectations are a key to life. I see this over and over and I feel like it's an underrated truth. 

As a young entrepreneur years ago I learned this lesson. The bathroom at the Bryant Boats factory was constantly messy. With 50 employees, we didn't have a full time janitor and it was on everyone to clean up after themselves. The way it usually worked is it would get messier and messier and finally after a few days, one of the guys couldn't stand it anymore and he'd do a real cleaning. I was frustrated with the situation and one day I was complaining to an older guy about it. 

He said, "Son, stop complaining. That's your fault.". 

I said, "What do you mean, it's my fault? I'm not the one messing up the bathroom"

He said, "No, but it's your responsibility". And then he said a phrase I've kept for a long time and I've found true for many things: "The bathrooms will get as messy as you let them."

He was 100% right. This was all on me. 

I put every employee's name on a list and made a calendar and each day, it was the responsibility of one employee to clean the bathroom at the end of the day. I was first on the list. It became part of your job that once every couple of months, you cleaned the bathroom. We never had a problem again. The people didn't change. Their behavior changed. 

And that's what we're trying to do here.

I'm the first to admit I'm often too naive on stuff like this. I choose to call it optimistic. We'll see. 

 
Summer Wheat said:
Just to clarify.  It will only be the PSF shut down and not the FFA and SP correct? If so that is understandable. The other forums seem pretty cool.
Nothing is being shut down right now. 

In order for the Political Forum to stay alive, things will need to change. 

The Free For All And Shark Pool are not in this discussion right now. 

 
Nothing is being shut down right now. 

In order for the Political Forum to stay alive, things will need to change. 

The Free For All And Shark Pool are not in this discussion right now. 
Joe, just want to reiterate what others are saying on what a great post and example of leadership.  Two points I want to make:

1. I know your post wasn't intended to drive new business but it motivated me to go buy a subscription - happy to donate it to somebody, first person to PM me can have it.

2. I'll also echo what a few said - things have been better the last week.  And I know some, maybe even you, think things will or may go back to how they were.  And they might - but I would just encourage you and the mods to follow through with those new rules, even if it means TOs or worse for long-time posters.  I think that is the way to ensure that things don't slip back.  There has to be consequences for not following the rules and if folks can't follow the rules - either intentionally or unintentionally, the rest of community and more importantly you, shouldn't feel the brunt of that.

 
Joe, your plea has created something that will be absolutely fascinating to watch. Will people be able to treat each other appropriately out of respect for a person most of them have never, nor will ever meet. Or will their anonymity and lack of real world consequences win out over time. I know where I'd place my bet but your genuine, personal message at the very least buys time for something to change.

 
Joe, just want to reiterate what others are saying on what a great post and example of leadership.  Two points I want to make:

1. I know your post wasn't intended to drive new business but it motivated me to go buy a subscription - happy to donate it to somebody, first person to PM me can have it.

2. I'll also echo what a few said - things have been better the last week.  And I know some, maybe even you, think things will or may go back to how they were.  And they might - but I would just encourage you and the mods to follow through with those new rules, even if it means TOs or worse for long-time posters.  I think that is the way to ensure that things don't slip back.  There has to be consequences for not following the rules and if folks can't follow the rules - either intentionally or unintentionally, the rest of community and more importantly you, shouldn't feel the brunt of that.
Thank you @AAABatteries  We'll give it a shot on following through. I'm not a big fan of negative reinforcement for behavior. But I get it that it works. In some areas it's known you can break the speed limit by 10 mph and be fine. Other areas that'll get you a ticket. Right or wrong, I'll drive accordingly. So I get it. We'll see how it goes. 

 
Joe, your plea has created something that will be absolutely fascinating to watch. Will people be able to treat each other appropriately out of respect for a person most of them have never, nor will ever meet. Or will their anonymity and lack of real world consequences win out over time. I know where I'd place my bet but your genuine, personal message at the very least buys time for something to change.
Thanks. I too am interested to see how it goes. 

I know I'm naive / optimistic but I always err towards assuming the best from people until they prove otherwise. Hoping I'm right here. 

 
GoBirds said:
Joe this is a great post, you have given this more chances and thought than anyone else would and it will definitely not be your fault if it's shut down. 

This is clearly not something profitable for the business and a complete time suck that people need to consider. I was shocked in the poll asking how many posters in here were premium members was not higher. As much mileage as everyone gets out of these forums, specifically the political one.......buy a membership and support this business(even if you don't play fantasy football) as it is a great value for the amount of time being spent in here. Joe is a good dude and would never require this but it needs to be said.......just freaking do it. 
Yeah, I'm not sure I could name 4 active QBs in the NFL right now but I just subscribed as well.  

@Joe Bryant, I hope you'll consider registering for the Brave verified publisher program.  People who use the Brave browser opt-in to see advertisements, and the expenditure that advertisers make to advertise to them is distributed to both the users and the publishers.  These distributions, made in the form of a cryptocurrency token, are automatically allocated to publishers based on the % of time users spend on the given website.  Wikipedia and WaPo are verified publishers, so you'd be in good company. 

I'd love to see Footballguys join the program.  Not only because I suspect it's not an inconsequential amount of money at this point, but because I know a lot of us would be glad to support the board, however little it might help.  (Full disclosure, I'm invested in BAT).  Thanks again for hosting the board all these years.  

 
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Out Priest today had a great message that seemingly applies to what the direction we must go here.

Too often we look at others...celebrities for an example...and are envious.  They  have money and fame.  But we don't know what baggage they may have.  Be happy with yourself.  Find your own path with what God has given you.

(and the following is what applies more here)

He went in to say, don't worry so much even about other people’s baggage.  We could have thieves and adulterers...we could have a woman who has had an abortion or could have a pedophile among us.   None of us are perfect...but we come to mass and we come to church and we eat from the same body and drink from the same cup and are seeking the same thing.  We are seeking salvation.

The message came from the gospel passage on Zacchaeus.  And how the crowd was so worried that Jesus went to the house of a sinner.  And how Zacchaeus felt he needed change, needed God’s grace and to seek Jesus.


For us here, we are seeking discussion, we are seeking entertainment...we are seeking information.  We shouldn’t worry about what this poster or that poster does to make it better.  We should worry about our own baggage.  How can I, sho nuff, do better?  Rather than worrying that someone else is trolling.

 
Thank you @Politician Spock  Back to my "the forum is like a Scrabble game" analogy, your post is an 8 letter word down the middle of the board. Lots for me to take off on. 

Your question of "Will people change?" is a good one. It's the primary question I have. And the answer is..."we'll see". 

Some thoughts there. 

And this is an important point. 

I'm not asking for people to change. That's a pretty big ask. I'm asking them to change their behavior. 

That's very different. 

I firmly believe people are not their behavior. I don't want to speak for you, but I'd guess you probably believe this too. 

And behavior can be changed. 

Think about it. It's entirely reasonable a person from this forum might find himself in these places over the course of a week:

  • A casual restaurant
  • A bar
  • A classroom
  • A meeting with their boss
  • A sporting event
The same person, without being duplicitous or deceitful, can behave differently and appropriately in all those places. 

Again, people are not their behavior.

That's what I'm hoping for here. I'm not asking for anyone to change who they are. I'm asking for folks to behave in a way I've tried to line out above. 

Second point. Clear expectations are a key to life. I see this over and over and I feel like it's an underrated truth. 

As a young entrepreneur years ago I learned this lesson. The bathroom at the Bryant Boats factory was constantly messy. With 50 employees, we didn't have a full time janitor and it was on everyone to clean up after themselves. The way it usually worked is it would get messier and messier and finally after a few days, one of the guys couldn't stand it anymore and he'd do a real cleaning. I was frustrated with the situation and one day I was complaining to an older guy about it. 

He said, "Son, stop complaining. That's your fault.". 

I said, "What do you mean, it's my fault? I'm not the one messing up the bathroom"

He said, "No, but it's your responsibility". And then he said a phrase I've kept for a long time and I've found true for many things: "The bathrooms will get as messy as you let them."

He was 100% right. This was all on me. 

I put every employee's name on a list and made a calendar and each day, it was the responsibility of one employee to clean the bathroom at the end of the day. I was first on the list. It became part of your job that once every couple of months, you cleaned the bathroom. We never had a problem again. The people didn't change. Their behavior changed. 

And that's what we're trying to do here.

I'm the first to admit I'm often too naive on stuff like this. I choose to call it optimistic. We'll see. 
I agree that it's behavior and that people behave differently in different situations. But I also think that is inherently the problem. 

If the people in this forum met face to face to discuss the same topics, the conversation would have a completely different tone because people behave differently in that context. Social media is a completely different context with a completely different tone. Asking people to be respectful on the internet is like asking kids on playground playing smear the queer to play hopscotch instead. If you even succeed at accomplishing it, it will be short lived.

I hope I'm wrong, and you're right. But I wouldn't bet on it. Good luck. 

 
Out Priest today had a great message that seemingly applies to what the direction we must go here.

Too often we look at others...celebrities for an example...and are envious.  They  have money and fame.  But we don't know what baggage they may have.  Be happy with yourself.  Find your own path with what God has given you.

(and the following is what applies more here)

He went in to say, don't worry so much even about other people’s baggage.  We could have thieves and adulterers...we could have a woman who has had an abortion or could have a pedophile among us.   None of us are perfect...but we come to mass and we come to church and we eat from the same body and drink from the same cup and are seeking the same thing.  We are seeking salvation.

The message came from the gospel passage on Zacchaeus.  And how the crowd was so worried that Jesus went to the house of a sinner.  And how Zacchaeus felt he needed change, needed God’s grace and to seek Jesus.


For us here, we are seeking discussion, we are seeking entertainment...we are seeking information.  We shouldn’t worry about what this poster or that poster does to make it better.  We should worry about our own baggage.  How can I, sho nuff, do better?  Rather than worrying that someone else is trolling.
Preach. 

That's a good word there.

 
Preach. 

That's a good word there.
It was good on many levels today.  Definitely words I needed in life as well.  We are lucky to have two really good priests.  This one is from Africa...his family is royalty of some sort...but he left that to come to America and be a Priest.

 
I agree that it's behavior and that people behave differently in different situations. But I also think that is inherently the problem. 

If the people in this forum met face to face to discuss the same topics, the conversation would have a completely different tone because people behave differently in that context. Social media is a completely different context with a completely different tone. Asking people to be respectful on the internet is like asking kids on playground playing smear the queer to play hopscotch instead. If you even succeed at accomplishing it, it will be short lived.

I hope I'm wrong, and you're right. But I wouldn't bet on it. Good luck. 
You are probably right about this within the confines of the PSF but I think @krista4 made a fantastic point about how interacting with people in the FFA or Shark Pool can change your perspective when reading their posts in the PSF. There are a few posters that come to mind that I disagree with politically but enjoy reading elsewhere so I am less inclined to be snarky. 

 
And yeah, changed my avatar. 

Don't worry, I don't think we're going to get to a place where real names and pictures are required. This seemed like the right thing for me. 

 
@Joe Bryant - A recent issue has come up that is really trying me in regard to your impactful comments re: disgust, and contempt. 

The specific issue doesn't matter, but may help provide some context.  Regarding the whistleblower, it appears that Senator Rand Paul has outright called for the media to dox the whistleblower.  This is a very dangerous thing to do, that actually puts an individual and his entire family into real danger.  That is aside from the need to protect whistleblowers in general, or the fact that it doesn't matter if the whistleblower is 100% anti-Trump, biased, or whatever.

I am NOT asking about the above instance, but rather my reaction and subsequent thoughts, spurred by this thread.

Some behaviors and actions are contemptible.  They do indeed disgust us.  I'd suggest in some cases, rightfully so. The extreme cases would be something akin to the Nazi's, or Pol Pot.  (that is NOT to say this case rises anything close, but extreme examples can provide clarity at times). I mean, how can we not be disgusted by their actions, and hold them in contempt? 

Also, I recognize that the Nazi party by way of example, and say Nazi leadership, is also quite different from the everyday person who bought into their ideology.  Perhaps we can have some understanding for those who, do to their own weakness, propaganda, fear, etc., ended up supporting that admittedly contemptible cause.  And those folks have had a chance of redemption, as has all of Germany in this example. They have owned their history, including their faults... but it doesn't change the fact that what the Nazi's did was horrible beyond reproach.

Now, let's dial that back a LOT, but with the understanding that there are some things out there that DO deserve contempt. That SHOULD disgust us.  Because I felt a twinge of both when Senator Paul called out to the media to uncover the identity of the whistleblower - something that, as stated above, could have real, serious, negative consequences.

When we are confronted by this - actions and behaviors by leaders (I'm not talking about other posters on this board - within this community I recognize we need to play within certain rules for the betterment of the community itself, even if things may push our buttons), how do we react?  At what point between asking for a whistleblower's identity to be uncovered and put out there (knowing the threats to his and his family's safety among other things) all the way to the extreme example of Naziism or Pol Pot, are we "entitled" to feel the very emotions you so eloquantly presented as such negatives.  In fact, at what point are we COMPELLED to feel that, even. Id suggest in the extreme example, to not feel contempt and disgust would be a worse result than to merely "respectfully disagree"

I'm admittedly nervous even typing this, because I don't want to be accused of comparing what I believe is a pretty terrible action to the extreme examples above.  And I don't want to devolve into a conversation of semantics.  At the same time, I feel real conflict inside... because Paul's actions DO make me feel that way, and I'm not sure if that is in some way healthy, or if that itself is bad.

Appreciate your thoughts or anyone elses.  This is just such a trying and difficult time here where folks on both sides of the aisle feel like our nation is losing not only its way, but its soul.

 
@Joe Bryant - A recent issue has come up that is really trying me in regard to your impactful comments re: disgust, and contempt. 

The specific issue doesn't matter, but may help provide some context.  Regarding the whistleblower, it appears that Senator Rand Paul has outright called for the media to dox the whistleblower.  This is a very dangerous thing to do, that actually puts an individual and his entire family into real danger.  That is aside from the need to protect whistleblowers in general, or the fact that it doesn't matter if the whistleblower is 100% anti-Trump, biased, or whatever.

I am NOT asking about the above instance, but rather my reaction and subsequent thoughts, spurred by this thread.

Some behaviors and actions are contemptible.  They do indeed disgust us.  I'd suggest in some cases, rightfully so. The extreme cases would be something akin to the Nazi's, or Pol Pot.  (that is NOT to say this case rises anything close, but extreme examples can provide clarity at times). I mean, how can we not be disgusted by their actions, and hold them in contempt? 

Also, I recognize that the Nazi party by way of example, and say Nazi leadership, is also quite different from the everyday person who bought into their ideology.  Perhaps we can have some understanding for those who, do to their own weakness, propaganda, fear, etc., ended up supporting that admittedly contemptible cause.  And those folks have had a chance of redemption, as has all of Germany in this example. They have owned their history, including their faults... but it doesn't change the fact that what the Nazi's did was horrible beyond reproach.

Now, let's dial that back a LOT, but with the understanding that there are some things out there that DO deserve contempt. That SHOULD disgust us.  Because I felt a twinge of both when Senator Paul called out to the media to uncover the identity of the whistleblower - something that, as stated above, could have real, serious, negative consequences.

When we are confronted by this - actions and behaviors by leaders (I'm not talking about other posters on this board - within this community I recognize we need to play within certain rules for the betterment of the community itself, even if things may push our buttons), how do we react?  At what point between asking for a whistleblower's identity to be uncovered and put out there (knowing the threats to his and his family's safety among other things) all the way to the extreme example of Naziism or Pol Pot, are we "entitled" to feel the very emotions you so eloquantly presented as such negatives.  In fact, at what point are we COMPELLED to feel that, even. Id suggest in the extreme example, to not feel contempt and disgust would be a worse result than to merely "respectfully disagree"

I'm admittedly nervous even typing this, because I don't want to be accused of comparing what I believe is a pretty terrible action to the extreme examples above.  And I don't want to devolve into a conversation of semantics.  At the same time, I feel real conflict inside... because Paul's actions DO make me feel that way, and I'm not sure if that is in some way healthy, or if that itself is bad.

Appreciate your thoughts or anyone elses.  This is just such a trying and difficult time here where folks on both sides of the aisle feel like our nation is losing not only its way, but its soul.
Thanks. Brooks talks about this a little in his article. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/02/opinion/sunday/political-polarization.html

clipped: 

Next, each of us can make a commitment never to treat others with contempt, even if we believe they deserve it. This might sound like a call for magnanimity, but it is just as much an appeal to self-interest. Contempt makes persuasion impossible — no one has ever been hated into agreement, after all — so its expression is either petty self-indulgence or cheap virtue signaling, neither of which wins converts.
The trick of course is the line is rarely black and white. It's rarely the guy saying something outright crazy. It's something more gray. And the line keeps moving back more toward the center and we're back to contempt towards anyone who disagrees with us. Which is a terrible place to be. 

I don't have great answers there for the extreme edges.

If someone wants to argue the Nazis were right, I truly don't want to listen. And likely don't want to understand. And feel digust and anger toward them which is contempt.

Fortunately, those kinds of extremes are by definition exceedingly rare. 

My opinion would be in general, if something is truly causing you to feel contempt for someone, deal with it face to face. On a message board, it just seems like there's no outcome that's going to be anything than us back to where we were and that's not something I'll be able to support. 

I don't deny that may be seen as me avoiding the problem. I'm just being honest for what I'm willing to support here.

 
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