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eoMMan

HOT TAKE - Should non-parents pay less property taxes than parents?

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3 hours ago, eoMMan said:

As I'm sure is the case in many counties all over the country, a large portion of our property taxes goes to schools/education.

Should property owning parents with children who are attending the schools pay more/less/the same as property owners with no children?

Discuss.

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fine with me, but only if they exempt private school parents as well.

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3 hours ago, eoMMan said:

Can we agree though that if there are less children, less schools are needed which results in less tax money needed?

Maybe a cap on the number of children is the right approach?

Did China have it right all along?

Sure, a lower portion of people working while the current generation turns elderly is a great plan.

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39 minutes ago, Walking Boot said:

 

Meh plenty around for low cost. Growing up in the 80s my textbooks didn't even know how the Vietnam War turned out. I'm sure we can still find those lying around cheap or free.

Yeah, get those back in circulation.  There's not enough Christopher Columbus worship going on the schools these days either.

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Well, we do have kids that utilized our town's schools. But they didn't take the bus. Or play soccer. Or take French class. Or play an instrument. Or eat school lunches. So we shouldn't have to contribute to transportation services, the soccer coach's salary, paying the music or language teachers, the lunch ladies, or the overpriced food vendors. And while we are at it, our kids didn't need paraprofessionals or reading specialists, didn't receive any special education, pretty much stayed away from the guidance department, and didn't take driver's ed. Heck, they just installed water fountains and our kids would never drink water. So yeah, we should get a tax credit!

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2 minutes ago, Bull Dozier said:

Yeah, get those back in circulation.  There's not enough Christopher Columbus worship going on the schools these days either.

 

Blame the teachers who spread out the first three chapters (Columbus, Pilgrims, colonies... everything pre-revolution) in order to stretch through Columbus Day to Thanksgiving. Then you really quickly got the pre-revolution setup in December, the Revolutionary War and the Constitutional Convention in January, all the stuff about slavery in February for Black History Month, followed by the Civil War itself in March, Reconstruction to WWI in April, the Great Depression and Cold War in May, then by the time you're checked out in June you've got about three days to cover the Vietnam War. 

I swear we'd spend months talking about colonies and who founded what and Oglethorpe and charters and other crap, then, like, 30 seconds on the stuff the teacher was actually alive for.

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I'm sure the landlords of renters pass that extra expense on to the tenants.  Unless of course they are really nice guys like Mr. Furley or Mr. Roper.

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26 minutes ago, -OZ- said:

Sure, a lower portion of people working while the current generation turns elderly is a great plan.

The 1970s documentary Soylent Green provided a workable solution for this future problem.

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1 hour ago, Walking Boot said:

Sure, have everyone pay for education. 

But... let's cut the stupid budgets. Teachers unions should be abolished, entirely. No public sector employees should have unions. Their pensions and contracts need to be slashed. At one point LAUSD teachers were guaranteed like 10% stock market returns on their pensions. A joke. Taxpayers end up having to pay them more than a comparable wage and then get on the hook for retirement better than anyone else on the planet. Gut it.

Then let's cut the spending on junk. I learned fine without an iPad. All you need is a chalkboard, a map, and a stick. Every classroom can get outfitted for $20. We're spending way too much on these spoiled brats that then graduate without knowing how to read or add fractions, but can swipe and kahoot like experts. F 'em. 

Think that's a CALPERS thing.  Not just teachers, cops and firemen too.

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1 hour ago, Bull Dozier said:

Yeah, get those back in circulation.  There's not enough Christopher Columbus worship going on the schools these days either.

I graduated 89 and we already had Iran-Contra in our textbooks.

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11 minutes ago, Navin Johnson said:

Think that's a CALPERS thing.  Not just teachers, cops and firemen too.

Get rid of all those unions. They're criminal. Public sector employees should not be allowed to unionize. 

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1 hour ago, -OZ- said:

Sure, a lower portion of people working while the current generation turns elderly is a great plan.

This is exactly what's happening to our social security program.

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3 minutes ago, Walking Boot said:

Get rid of all those unions. They're criminal. Public sector employees should not be allowed to unionize. 

Just as criminal as the politicians that paid them off with that particular concession.

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You're paying back the education you got, not the one your  kids are/aren't getting.

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38 minutes ago, BassNBrew said:

You're paying back the education you got, not the one your  kids are/aren't getting.

Well that just makes me feel even more ripped off.

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4 hours ago, -fish- said:

My town had a school bond issue on the ballot last year.   Our local schools are overcrowded and deteriorated--things like plumbing not working, roofs leaking, mold, etc.   It takes a 60% vote to pass a bond here.    These arguments about people that have already put their kids through school and people with no kids not having responsibility for the condition of local schools were rampant, and the bond was defeated by 1.5%.

That’s insane. Wow. 

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3 hours ago, Walking Boot said:

Sure, have everyone pay for education. 

But... let's cut the stupid budgets. Teachers unions should be abolished, entirely. No public sector employees should have unions. Their pensions and contracts need to be slashed. At one point LAUSD teachers were guaranteed like 10% stock market returns on their pensions. A joke. Taxpayers end up having to pay them more than a comparable wage and then get on the hook for retirement better than anyone else on the planet. Gut it.

Then let's cut the spending on junk. I learned fine without an iPad. All you need is a chalkboard, a map, and a stick. Every classroom can get outfitted for $20. We're spending way too much on these spoiled brats that then graduate without knowing how to read or add fractions, but can swipe and kahoot like experts. F 'em. 

whoa whoa whoa boomer 

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3 hours ago, TheIronSheik said:

I remember I used to be one of those people that would say, "We need to pay teachers more money."  Then I learned how much my teacher friends were making for working 6 hour days for 8 months of the year.  

6 hour days??? I have like 5 teacher friends who are working 9-10 hour days minimum. That job is hard AF 

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2 hours ago, matttyl said:
6 hours ago, CletiusMaximus said:

No.  All of society benefits from public education, whether or not we have kids.  If we go down this path, it opens up a hornet's nest of analyzing who benefits most from different public services.

Also, although I will pay a ridiculous amount in property taxes this year, I still have to send my kids to a catholic school (despite being a non-believer myself) because our city schools suck so badly.

So, public healthcare (Medicare) for all?  Same idea.

The difference is that if we take away public education, it will cost way more to society than taking away free healthcare.

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Not many solid arguments being made why this is a bad idea....

I'm not suggesting that non-parents don't pay anything.  I definitely see the value in everyone contributing to the education of the future generation.  But there's no denying that a non-parent is being unfairly taxed by not having any kids in the school system when Momma June up the road has 5 kids in the public school system.  Let's set up a minimum tax for everyone and then an additional sliding tax scale based on the amount of kids the parents have.  You know....the kids that they chose to have.

:hottake:

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How about preventing people from moving once their kids are out of school until they pay off the remainder of their accrued school expenses?  My kin have a hard time understanding how theyve received way more in schooling for their kids then theyve paid.  

Edited by NutterButter
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2 hours ago, Walking Boot said:

 

Blame the teachers who spread out the first three chapters (Columbus, Pilgrims, colonies... everything pre-revolution) in order to stretch through Columbus Day to Thanksgiving. Then you really quickly got the pre-revolution setup in December, the Revolutionary War and the Constitutional Convention in January, all the stuff about slavery in February for Black History Month, followed by the Civil War itself in March, Reconstruction to WWI in April, the Great Depression and Cold War in May, then by the time you're checked out in June you've got about three days to cover the Vietnam War. 

I swear we'd spend months talking about colonies and who founded what and Oglethorpe and charters and other crap, then, like, 30 seconds on the stuff the teacher was actually alive for.

Vietnam? Ancient history. Let’s just start and end with the Friends DVD box set.

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3 hours ago, Walking Boot said:

 

Meh plenty around for low cost. Growing up in the 80s my textbooks didn't even know how the Vietnam War turned out. I'm sure we can still find those lying around cheap or free.

Folks today are all about removing any reminders of our past history, so we really don't even need history books.

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6 hours ago, Capella said:

How does anybody ever even come across this thought? 

My dad was a single parent and I have a scary-good memory. I remember being eleven years old when my old man brought this up at the dinner table. We always ate a proper dinner together every night. When he said it, I assumed it was a product of him receiving and opening the property tax bill that day and seeing the breakdown of the charges. Pretty simple. The dude also owned a ranch in an adjacent county and complained about having to "put those kids through school," as well. It was a pretty bizarre thing to complain about. I learned a lot from him though, and loved him a lot, but about half of what I learned from him was how NOT to act and what NOT to say. Dude was a world-traveler, ladies man, and an entrepreneur/investor, and had a mean side to him; along with harboring quite a bit of racism and sexism to boot. But I was loyal and he trusted me, so I therefore received a hefty education just being within his inner circle and bearing witness to all his daily activities, public and private. Also, in addition to all that, despite the fact he was a daily, avid reader, he couldn't spell correctly (or type), which developed into a debilitating phobia for him. Since he was also frugal, as soon as I was old enough I inherited the chore of typing up all his legal contracts and documents - which, as a teenager, provided me unbelievable insight into how businesses ran and how agreements and negotiation worked. Anyway - what I'm trying to say is - it sounds like something an old, frugal businessman would think about and unfortunately say out loud, to the detriment of his character and reputation.

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27 minutes ago, eoMMan said:

Not many solid arguments being made why this is a bad idea....

I'm not suggesting that non-parents don't pay anything.  I definitely see the value in everyone contributing to the education of the future generation.  But there's no denying that a non-parent is being unfairly taxed by not having any kids in the school system when Momma June up the road has 5 kids in the public school system.  Let's set up a minimum tax for everyone and then an additional sliding tax scale based on the amount of kids the parents have.  You know....the kids that they chose to have.

:hottake:

All the arguments against are solid. You just don’t want to hear them.

Your system punishes poor  kids. Is that the end goal here? Keep the poor unwashed masses in their place?

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2 hours ago, Navin Johnson said:

I graduated 89 and we already had Iran-Contra in our textbooks.

Best NES game ever!

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7 hours ago, eoMMan said:

Can we agree though that if there are less children, less schools are needed which results in less tax money needed?

Maybe a cap on the number of children is the right approach?

Did China have it right all along?

Learn the difference between less and fewer and then let me know if we need fewer schools.

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I think if non-parents are to be taxed to provide education to the children of breeders, then they should have a say in that breeding.

Non-parents should form some sort of community review board to pre-approve all procreations before they occur. Parents should be pre-evaluated for competency and financial stability before being approved to have a kid. Each time.

Any parents who do not terminate an unauthorized pregnancy should waive all right to government handouts related to that kid.

 

It's only fair.

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7 hours ago, Peak said:

What about those who had kids in the school system who graduated and moved on, but the parents still live at the same address?  Do they need to pay for someone else's kids?  They already paid for their own and never received the same benefits as some do today with the advanced technologies.  What's to gain for these fine elderly folks?

Do they want their home to retain, or increase, its value?

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21 minutes ago, Walking Boot said:

I think if non-parents are to be taxed to provide education to the children of breeders, then they should have a say in that breeding.

Non-parents should form some sort of community review board to pre-approve all procreations before they occur. Parents should be pre-evaluated for competency and financial stability before being approved to have a kid. Each time.

Any parents who do not terminate an unauthorized pregnancy should waive all right to government handouts related to that kid.

 

It's only fair.

See. This guy gets it.

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3 hours ago, EYLive said:

This is exactly what's happening to our social security program.

Yep. Let's not make it worse

6 hours ago, -fish- said:

My town had a school bond issue on the ballot last year.   Our local schools are overcrowded and deteriorated--things like plumbing not working, roofs leaking, mold, etc.   It takes a 60% vote to pass a bond here.    These arguments about people that have already put their kids through school and people with no kids not having responsibility for the condition of local schools were rampant, and the bond was defeated by 1.5%.

It's the same everywhere. Luckily ours passed, but there is a very vocal minority that rails against any raise of taxes, despite us being among the lowest in the nation taxwise.  They seem to not understand, or care, that their house is worth more because of the schools.

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2 hours ago, -OZ- said:

 

It's the same everywhere. Luckily ours passed, but there is a very vocal minority that rails against any raise of taxes, despite us being among the lowest in the nation taxwise.  They seem to not understand, or care, that their house is worth more because of the schools.

 

In large swaths of the country, throwing money at schools has not made them better. Often, they continue to get worse. It is not a linear progression from taxes to good schools. And if the local government has not delivered in the past after raising taxes, it's only logical the voters should stop the flow. 

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7 hours ago, Anarchy99 said:

Well, we do have kids that utilized our town's schools. But they didn't take the bus. Or play soccer. Or take French class. Or play an instrument. Or eat school lunches. So we shouldn't have to contribute to transportation services, the soccer coach's salary, paying the music or language teachers, the lunch ladies, or the overpriced food vendors. And while we are at it, our kids didn't need paraprofessionals or reading specialists, didn't receive any special education, pretty much stayed away from the guidance department, and didn't take driver's ed. Heck, they just installed water fountains and our kids would never drink water. So yeah, we should get a tax credit!

Many districts are starting to charge additional fees for this stuff. My sons school charges 85 bucks if you play a sport, 45 bucks just to be able to join a club(all the clubs have additional fees), technology fees, and a couple other fees. I suspect these fees will continue to go up. 

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There are certain things that serve the common good. The pay for only what you use strategy falls apart once you start applying it to other public services as well.

However, I'd be in favor of a business tax that supports education. It seems to me that public education aims more to provide a pool of somewhat functional employee candidates rather than provide students with entrepreneurial skills. So, in that sense, employers probably benefit as much or more from public education than a childless adult. If there are places where businesses play a prominent role in funding public education. It would be interesting to hear how that works.

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5 hours ago, Walking Boot said:

 

In large swaths of the country, throwing money at schools has not made them better. Often, they continue to get worse. It is not a linear progression from taxes to good schools. And if the local government has not delivered in the past after raising taxes, it's only logical the voters should stop the flow. 

For many, I agree.

Here, our schools rank top 50 in the nation and the population has doubled since 2000. 

 The new taxes are going to a new elementary and middle School, and to expand the high schools. 

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14 hours ago, matttyl said:

So, public healthcare (Medicare) for all?  Same idea.

No, that's clearly socialism, the greatest of all evils.

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16 hours ago, Tom Servo said:

My local state representative has suggested doing away with property taxes in favor of a sales tax.  That way, renters have to pay for the schools they use.

You seriously think renters don’t pay that as part of their rent?

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15 hours ago, Walking Boot said:

I swear we'd spend months talking about colonies and who founded what and Oglethorpe and charters and other crap, then, like, 30 seconds on the stuff the teacher was actually alive for.

Ogie Oglethorpe?!? :shock:

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12 hours ago, Capella said:

6 hour days??? I have like 5 teacher friends who are working 9-10 hour days minimum. That job is hard AF 

What?  They work as many hours as the rest of us?  Wow.  That is hard AF.  

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5 minutes ago, TheIronSheik said:

What?  They work as many hours as the rest of us?  Wow.  That is hard AF.  


You’re the one who said 6 hour days, not me.

Different levels of hard. Dealing with 25 kids and their insane parents day after day is no joke. And I don’t know where you get the pay thing from, teachers here generally make between 35-45k. It’s no bounty. 

Edited by Capella

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2 minutes ago, Capella said:


You’re the one who said 6 hour days, not me.

Different levels of hard. Dealing with 25 kids and their insane parents day after day is no joke. And I don’t know where you get the pay thing from, teachers here generally make between 35-45k. It’s no bounty. 

Well, I was partly going for the joke.  I think if you take my what I write a little less serious, GB, you'll see I'm not trying to have serious arguments most of the time.  

And the teachers I know up here all make over 6 figures.  Public schools.

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13 minutes ago, TheIronSheik said:

Well, I was partly going for the joke.  I think if you take my what I write a little less serious, GB, you'll see I'm not trying to have serious arguments most of the time.  

And the teachers I know up here all make over 6 figures.  Public schools.

I wasn’t taking you serious, just at face value. 
 

SIX FIGURES????? Holy hell. Is that serious?

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13 hours ago, [scooter] said:

The difference is that if we take away public education, it will cost way more to society than taking away free healthcare.

what do you mean by "cost"?  Taking away "free healthcare" (which isn't free, but federally funded) just to those who have it today (which isn't nearly everyone) such as Medicare and Medicaid today would result in thousands of deaths, possibly hundreds of thousands over the next year.  Taking away public education wouldn't cause anything like that.

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8 minutes ago, Capella said:

I wasn’t taking you serious, just at face value. 
 

SIX FIGURES????? Holy hell. Is that serious?

It is.  And not just like, barely over.  I'm talking around like the $125k range.  And then two of the guys I know actually take side jobs in construction/demo because a guy they know owns a business.  So during the summer, they go help him.  It's not crazy money, but they probably make $10-$15k extra?  Then they usually take about 3 weeks off and go on some big vacation with that money.  Yeah.  It doesn't suck to be a teacher up this way, apparently.

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34 minutes ago, Capella said:


You’re the one who said 6 hour days, not me.

Different levels of hard. Dealing with 25 kids and their insane parents day after day is no joke. And I don’t know where you get the pay thing from, teachers here generally make between 35-45k. It’s no bounty. 

My personal hell would be being forced to be a teacher in most public schools. No thanks.

29 minutes ago, TheIronSheik said:

Well, I was partly going for the joke.  I think if you take my what I write a little less serious, GB, you'll see I'm not trying to have serious arguments most of the time.  

And the teachers I know up here all make over 6 figures.  Public schools.

The average teacher in the highest state (NY) makes $85k. You must only know long term tenured teachers. 

https://mobile.edweek.org/c.jsp?cid=25920011&item=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.edweek.org%2Fv1%2Fblogs%2F83%2F%3Fuuid%3D78982

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3 minutes ago, -OZ- said:

My personal hell would be being forced to be a teacher in most public schools. No thanks.

The average teacher in the highest state (NY) makes $85k. You must only know long term tenured teachers. 

https://mobile.edweek.org/c.jsp?cid=25920011&item=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.edweek.org%2Fv1%2Fblogs%2F83%2F%3Fuuid%3D78982

Well, I'm 46, so obviously my friends would be similar age.  So, yes, I'm not talking about starting salaries.  But after 15 years, $125 a year is pretty sweet.  

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2 hours ago, The Z Machine said:

No, that's clearly socialism, the greatest of all evils.

Public education =/= socialism, but public healthcare is?

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9 minutes ago, TheIronSheik said:

It is.  And not just like, barely over.  I'm talking around like the $125k range.  And then two of the guys I know actually take side jobs in construction/demo because a guy they know owns a business.  So during the summer, they go help him.  It's not crazy money, but they probably make $10-$15k extra?  Then they usually take about 3 weeks off and go on some big vacation with that money.  Yeah.  It doesn't suck to be a teacher up this way, apparently.

Man that’s wild. My friend makes 42 (I think) and she’s been teaching 15 years. Was super excited to get an 800 dollar raise last year. 

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7 minutes ago, Capella said:

Man that’s wild. My friend makes 42 (I think) and she’s been teaching 15 years. Was super excited to get an 800 dollar raise last year. 

Yeah, down by us, teachers make jack squat if you are solely looking at salary. I think their biggest perks are summers off, pretty good insurance, and a pension.

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