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HOT TAKE - Should non-parents pay less property taxes than parents?

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21 minutes ago, matttyl said:

 

Neat board

Edited by culdeus

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1 minute ago, matttyl said:

?

Double posted and there is no way to delete posts from mobile. 

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2 minutes ago, culdeus said:

Double posted and there is no way to delete posts from mobile. 

no problem.  I guess I could just never get over the difference.  It's the pooling of public resources for the public good.  No matter if it's for public education or public healthcare.  And I'm asking as a health insurance agent. 

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13 minutes ago, -OZ- said:

 You're still looking at the exceptions, the vast majority of teachers across the US aren't getting that much.  $125k is more than the maximum most places. 

Many professions have a higher cap and easier path to get there. Especially when accounting for similar levels of education.

Fwiw, both my parents, my sister, a few cousins, and two aunts were teachers for over 20 years. Wife was one before she opted to stay home with the kids. None of them made big money. Dad did alright, especially with his pension. 

 

8 minutes ago, NutterButter said:

Sounds like you should apply.  All i know is that i wouldnt want that job and thats how i typically decide if a public employee is making too much money.  

I'm not trying to say they make too much.  Or that their job isn't tough.  All I said is I don't think they get paid as bad as everyone thinks.  

I hear people saying things like, "They only make $50k a year."  Well, $50k isn't living on welfare.  It's actually decent pay.  And you get 3 months off.  Again, not saying it's an easy job.  And I don't want it.  But they aren't slaves either.  They make decent money like most Americans.  But you don't hear people blindly screaming, "We need to pay Database Managers more money!  They make so little, they're treated like dirt and the country couldn't run without them.  Do you want their job?"  

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8 minutes ago, matttyl said:

no problem.  I guess I could just never get over the difference.  It's the pooling of public resources for the public good.  No matter if it's for public education or public healthcare.  And I'm asking as a health insurance agent. 

Good rule of thumb is socialism is something that benefits people poorer than you could ever imagine being. 

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10 minutes ago, TheIronSheik said:

 

I'm not trying to say they make too much.  Or that their job isn't tough.  All I said is I don't think they get paid as bad as everyone thinks.  

I hear people saying things like, "They only make $50k a year."  Well, $50k isn't living on welfare.  It's actually decent pay.  And you get 3 months off.  Again, not saying it's an easy job.  And I don't want it.  But they aren't slaves either.  They make decent money like most Americans.  But you don't hear people blindly screaming, "We need to pay Database Managers more money!  They make so little, they're treated like dirt and the country couldn't run without them.  Do you want their job?"  

As with most things in this world where you teach makes a pretty big difference. 

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25 minutes ago, TheIronSheik said:

 

I'm not trying to say they make too much.  Or that their job isn't tough.  All I said is I don't think they get paid as bad as everyone thinks.  

I hear people saying things like, "They only make $50k a year."  Well, $50k isn't living on welfare.  It's actually decent pay.  And you get 3 months off.  Again, not saying it's an easy job.  And I don't want it.  But they aren't slaves either.  They make decent money like most Americans.  But you don't hear people blindly screaming, "We need to pay Database Managers more money!  They make so little, they're treated like dirt and the country couldn't run without them.  Do you want their job?"  

The one thing that always shukes me is that they have these occasional strikes over their contract.   Do teachers not just get a raise each year that's inline with inflation or maybe a little more?  That seems fair to me and is transparent in terms of what you should expect to make in the future when you're deciding to become a teacher.   

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"Well, I already paid for school taxes when my kids were in school, why should I pay now that they are not." - Said every old person on Nextdoor.

I think both charter and private schools should be abolished, so no one has incentive to vote down school funding.

Edited by huthut

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1 hour ago, matttyl said:
14 hours ago, [scooter] said:

The difference is that if we take away public education, it will cost way more to society than taking away free healthcare.

what do you mean by "cost"?  Taking away "free healthcare" (which isn't free, but federally funded) just to those who have it today (which isn't nearly everyone) such as Medicare and Medicaid today would result in thousands of deaths, possibly hundreds of thousands over the next year.  Taking away public education wouldn't cause anything like that.

An uneducated populace would have a significantly lower life expectancy, for numerous reasons.

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1 hour ago, culdeus said:

Good rule of thumb is socialism is something that benefits people poorer than you could ever imagine being. 

Public education does that. 

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19 minutes ago, [scooter] said:

An uneducated populace would have a significantly lower life expectancy, for numerous reasons.

So would one without healthcare. 

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This year we had a ballot proposition that proposed to raise taxes to go to the teachers and school upgrades. Of course, there was a big ground swell that teachers worked half the year and didn't deserve to make more money with all that time off, etc. So all over the place people were screaming VOTE NO on Proposition 6.

But what there wasn't much discussion on was that there was a default plan in place if the ballot proposition was voted down that would have allocated way more money to the schools and almost double the proposed raises to the teachers. So if people wanted to allocate a smaller increase to the schools, they had to vote YES on the ballot proposition. Ultimately the town voted YES and people were commenting all over the place that how could people not vote in funding to improve the schools and how did people not value education. It was quite the cluster.

Another one that somehow made it on the ballot was a plan to make an artificial turf field at the high school for over $2 million. The problem we have in our town is they won't let teams practice on the stadium field, so even with an artificial turf field they would only be allowed to use if a few times a year. Thankfully that one got voted down.

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2 minutes ago, matttyl said:
22 minutes ago, [scooter] said:

An uneducated populace would have a significantly lower life expectancy, for numerous reasons.

So would one without healthcare. 

We've already experienced a society without mandated healthcare, and it didn't move the needle too much in terms of life expectancy. Part of the reason for this the fact that we had an educated populace who were able to find jobs that provided healthcare in one manner or another.

But take away that education, and now you've got masses of unskilled commoners dragging down society, making the world sicker and more dangerous, and making America less competitive in the global economy.

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1 minute ago, [scooter] said:

We've already experienced a society without mandated healthcare, and it didn't move the needle too much in terms of life expectancy. Part of the reason for this the fact that we had an educated populace who were able to find jobs that provided healthcare in one manner or another.

But take away that education, and now you've got masses of unskilled commoners dragging down society, making the world sicker and more dangerous, and making America less competitive in the global economy.

Probably a lot better for climate change though.

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29 minutes ago, matttyl said:

Public education does that. 

Provided they use it.  

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41 minutes ago, [scooter] said:

We've already experienced a society without mandated healthcare, and it didn't move the needle too much in terms of life expectancy. Part of the reason for this the fact that we had an educated populace who were able to find jobs that provided healthcare in one manner or another.

But take away that education, and now you've got masses of unskilled commoners dragging down society, making the world sicker and more dangerous, and making America less competitive in the global economy.

I was talking about Medicare, and Medicaid.  Those two groups of people, who today have care provided by the State, are by in large too old or too uneducated or too sick to find jobs that provide healthcare.  My point was if we take that away today, from those ~120M Americans, we'd have thousands of deaths, possibly hundreds of thousands of them, simply due to losing that coverage.  That's a pretty big "cost", depending on how you define the term.

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2 hours ago, Anarchy99 said:

.

Another one that somehow made it on the ballot was a plan to make an artificial turf field at the high school for over $2 million. The problem we have in our town is they won't let teams practice on the stadium field, so even with an artificial turf field they would only be allowed to use if a few times a year. Thankfully that one got voted down.

It looks like our football stadium is probably going to turf in the near future. Two high schools use it, as will the new middle School.  The stats cited shows it actually saves money but I'm not sure if everything was included or the accuracy of the numbers. 

But it's for two HS football teams, in Alabama. They'll get what they want.

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Not going to go back and read all the responses but...

NO.  HELL NO.

Public schools are there to benefit our society, our communities as a whole.  PERIOD.

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2 hours ago, -OZ- said:

It looks like our football stadium is probably going to turf in the near future. Two high schools use it, as will the new middle School.  The stats cited shows it actually saves money but I'm not sure if everything was included or the accuracy of the numbers. 

But it's for two HS football teams, in Alabama. They'll get what they want.

The way they promoted it was it would save something like $30-40K a year in maintenance costs to take care of the existing grass field. Not sure where that number came from (although it seems excessive). The field turf people said the artificial surface should be replaced after 10 years. Not sure if that is accurate either, but that's what I remember hearing.

The advocates of getting field turf said it would save $400K in maintenance costs over 10 years. Those against said it would actually cost an average of $160-170K per year due to the cost to install the field. People were initially up for the idea when it seemed like all the schools, club teams, and rec teams in multiple sports would be able to use the field for games, practices, scrimmages, and tournaments. But then that shrank to just the high school teams. And that shrank to just football and soccer (no lacrosse). And then that shrank to home day division games only (no scrimmages or tournaments). To make sure no one used it, they were going to lock the stadium to eliminate access. So that proposition died a fiery death.

Edited by Anarchy99
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4 hours ago, huthut said:

"Well, I already paid for school taxes when my kids were in school, why should I pay now that they are not." - Said every old person on Nextdoor.

I think both charter and private schools should be abolished, so no one has incentive to vote down school funding.

:lmao: Where do you think most charter schools get their money from?

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4 hours ago, [scooter] said:

We've already experienced a society without mandated healthcare, and it didn't move the needle too much in terms of life expectancy.

Also, that's not really true, either.  Here is US life expectancy by year since 1960.  Medicare and Medicaid were signed in 1965, and then greatly expanded in 1972.  US life expectancy went up faster than it ever has the following 7 years.  Not giving all the credit to those two programs - but it's not just a coincidence, either. 

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If you don't pay teachers a sufficient salary then you will get less potentially good teachers entering the profession. They will pursue something more lucrative and the quality of education deteriorates. 

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2 minutes ago, MAC_32 said:

If you don't pay teachers a sufficient salary then you will get less potentially good teachers entering the profession. They will pursue something more lucrative and the quality of education deteriorates. 

I spoke with a woman the other day who is a high school guidance counselor. She makes $75K a year to get half the year off (and most days be done working at 2 or 3 o'clock). She wanted to find a position that would allow her to spend more time with her kids. So she wanted to start looking for schools that would hire her to work 3.5 days per week for the same amount of money (not the same hourly rate, the same yearly total).

Where do we draw the line at pay for teachers and administrators? In this woman's case, she wants to make $75K to work 125 days a year. That works out to $600 a day. I don't know what a lot of money is these days, but that seems like a lot for what the job entails.

I get that we get what we pay for in terms of providing a quality education, and lower pay will usually attract lesser quality teachers. But what is a decent amount to pay someone to work roughly half of a year (I realize not all teachers have that many days off or may work more than that.)

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6 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

I spoke with a woman the other day who is a high school guidance counselor. She makes $75K a year to get half the year off (and most days be done working at 2 or 3 o'clock). She wanted to find a position that would allow her to spend more time with her kids. So she wanted to start looking for schools that would hire her to work 3.5 days per week for the same amount of money (not the same hourly rate, the same yearly total).

Where do we draw the line at pay for teachers and administrators? In this woman's case, she wants to make $75K to work 125 days a year. That works out to $600 a day. I don't know what a lot of money is these days, but that seems like a lot for what the job entails.

I get that we get what we pay for in terms of providing a quality education, and lower pay will usually attract lesser quality teachers. But what is a decent amount to pay someone to work roughly half of a year (I realize not all teachers have that many days off or may work more than that.)

The numbers you and sheik quote are likely sufficient and not the norm. 

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On 11/6/2019 at 11:52 AM, CletiusMaximus said:

No.  All of society benefits from public education, whether or not we have kids.  If we go down this path, it opens up a hornet's nest of analyzing who benefits most from different public services.

Also, although I will pay a ridiculous amount in property taxes this year, I still have to send my kids to a catholic school (despite being a non-believer myself) because our city schools suck so badly.

New Orleans?

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Quote

Education is the silver bullet. Education is everything. We don’t need little changes, we need gigantic, monumental changes. Schools should be palaces. Competition for the best teachers should be fierce; they should be making six figure salaries. Schools should be incredibly expensive for government and absolutely free of charge to it citizens, just like national defense.

- Sam Seaborn

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3 hours ago, MAC_32 said:

The numbers you and sheik quote are likely sufficient and not the norm. 

Its always a good practice to focus on the median and not some ridiculous outliers.   

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6 hours ago, EYLive said:

:lmao: Where do you think most charter schools get their money from?

They are a leech on public money, it is essentially a publicly funded private school. 

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2 hours ago, huthut said:

They are a leech on public money, it is essentially a publicly funded private school. 

Let me educate you.
Charter schools are public schools.
If a charter school is failing academically or financially, they close. If a district school fails, they stay open and either more money gets thrown at it or the students & teachers just suffer.
But don't let the truth distract you from whatever narrative you've concocted in your mind.

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2 minutes ago, EYLive said:

Let me educate you.
Charter schools are public schools.
If a charter school is failing academically or financially, they close. If a district school fails, they stay open and either more money gets thrown at it or the students & teachers just suffer.
But don't let the truth distract you from whatever narrative you've concocted in your mind.

For what it is worth...there is no research to support or deride Charter Schools.  

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9 minutes ago, OrtonToOlsen said:

For what it is worth...there is no research to support or deride Charter Schools.  

Could be. I just know that LAUSD spent millions of dollar on attack ads and misinformation against charter schools last year, and people are buying the false info. This is money that could have been spent on district teachers and students. Charters also typically take on a large number of special education students that district schools don't want or can't help; 15-25% of total enrollment is common. People need to stop smearing charters just because it's fashionable to do so.
FWIW, I'm not a teacher or a parent.

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I assume that this has already been echoed multiple times in this thread. No kids, but happy to live in an area with desirable public schools. The positive impacts are multiple, and extend beyond the positive impact on my home value. 

 

I hate paying taxes, but also don’t think that I pay enough taxes. Maybe President bernie/liz/AOC will fix that 

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7 hours ago, EYLive said:

Let me educate you.
Charter schools are public schools.
If a charter school is failing academically or financially, they close. If a district school fails, they stay open and either more money gets thrown at it or the students & teachers just suffer.
But don't let the truth distract you from whatever narrative you've concocted in your mind.

There's more, but that charter school reality and lack of academic standards directly leads to the problems that currently exist in many of their schools - enrollment and grades with little over sight is their fuel. That's a lethal combo. You're not wrong when it comes to failing public school districts, but this isn't the answer. 

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HOT TAKE

Is it time the US just goes into Mexico, overthrows the government, clears out the cartels and turns Mexico into the 51st state?  We'd solve the drug crisis and the immigration crisis all in one fell swoop.  No one would be trying to cross the border and they could live where they are now but with the benefits of being Americans.

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2 minutes ago, TheIronSheik said:

HOT TAKE

Is it time the US just goes into Mexico, overthrows the government, clears out the cartels and turns Mexico into the 51st state?  We'd solve the drug crisis and the immigration crisis all in one fell swoop.  No one would be trying to cross the border and they could live where they are now but with the benefits of being Americans.

If I had to guess, the bold would still be a sticking point with a lot of people.

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13 minutes ago, TheIronSheik said:

HOT TAKE

Is it time the US just goes into Mexico, overthrows the government, clears out the cartels and turns Mexico into the 51st state?  We'd solve the drug crisis and the immigration crisis all in one fell swoop.  No one would be trying to cross the border and they could live where they are now but with the benefits of being Americans.

People from South America and Central America would try to cross into "our" southern Mexico border.

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19 minutes ago, The Commish said:

If I had to guess, the bold would still be a sticking point with a lot of people.

I thought that's why they were jumping the current border.

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9 minutes ago, eoMMan said:

People from South America and Central America would try to cross into "our" southern Mexico border.

Then we liberate those countries, too. :shrug:

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1 minute ago, TheIronSheik said:

I thought that's why they were jumping the current border.

correct....and it would continue to be a sticking point just as it is today.

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42 minutes ago, The Commish said:

correct....and it would continue to be a sticking point just as it is today.

Not if we're all one country.  What border.

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20 minutes ago, TheIronSheik said:

Not if we're all one country.  What border.

oh...no, it's not actually the physical border....it's the people crossing it.  That demographic would not change

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On 11/8/2019 at 12:26 AM, EYLive said:

Let me educate you.
Charter schools are public schools.
If a charter school is failing academically or financially, they close. If a district school fails, they stay open and either more money gets thrown at it or the students & teachers just suffer.
But don't let the truth distract you from whatever narrative you've concocted in your mind.

Charter schools are kind of a hybrid and how closely they resemble public or private depends on the State. If a charter school is failing, their status depends on the State laws. Same with public schools. In Michigan, an entire school district near me shut down a couple years ago to financial problems while there have also been news reports of charter schools failing year after year but staying open. Charter schools are complicated and different from State to State. 

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Some gym teachers in our county make $100K+ to work 9 months of the year.  It's all based on time of service.  Plus pension.  And they ##### about it.  How hard is it to tell a kid to run around the track and do a 2 week lesson on Family Planning or whatever it's called?   Most of them look worse than Rosie O'Donnell.

My history teacher made over $100K in 1986.    In our county you can look up their salaries.

I feel fortunate my kids teachers have come from Duke, Stanford, and other great schools.  That's why I live here, so I don't have to pay for private schools.  I'm told most of them make in the $150k range, and that's again for part of a year.  I feel that's worth it for the ones teaching Calc, Econ, Stats, Chem, and other tough courses.  Not so much when they are teaching gym  jouranlism, etc.  I mean the drama teacher is making as much as the Calc teacher.  Seems dumb to me.  I could get anyone to teach gym or some artsy crap.

Edited by Brunell4MVP

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4 hours ago, TheIronSheik said:

HOT TAKE

Is it time the US just goes into Mexico, overthrows the government, clears out the cartels and turns Mexico into the 51st state?  We'd solve the drug crisis and the immigration crisis all in one fell swoop.  No one would be trying to cross the border and they could live where they are now but with the benefits of being Americans.

 

We should offer free passage for the Canadian military to do it. Let them move down through the US unimpeded and let them invade Mexico and take it over to manage. 

Americans aren't sufficiently motivated to solve this problem. Canada wouldn't mind having a few beaches and warm weather once in a while, so they'd have incentive. 

Plus then Trudeau could wear brownface too.

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2 minutes ago, Walking Boot said:

 

We should offer free passage for the Canadian military to do it. Let them move down through the US unimpeded and let them invade Mexico and take it over to manage. 

Americans aren't sufficiently motivated to solve this problem. Canada wouldn't mind having a few beaches and warm weather once in a while, so they'd have incentive. 

Plus then Trudeau could wear brownface too.

And the now jobless Don Cherry can be hired to run a Mexican Hockey League.

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4 hours ago, eoMMan said:

People from South America and Central America would try to cross into "our" southern Mexico border.

Talk about moving the goalposts.

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19 minutes ago, Brunell4MVP said:

Some gym teachers in our county make $100K+ to work 9 months of the year.  It's all based on time of service.  Plus pension.  And they ##### about it.  How hard is it to tell a kid to run around the track and do a 2 week lesson on Family Planning or whatever it's called?   Most of them look worse than Rosie O'Donnell.

My history teacher made over $100K in 1986.    In our county you can look up their salaries.

I feel fortunate my kids teachers have come from Duke, Stanford, and other great schools.  That's why I live here, so I don't have to pay for private schools.  I'm told most of them make in the $150k range, and that's again for part of a year.  I feel that's worth it for the ones teaching Calc, Econ, Stats, Chem, and other tough courses.  Not so much when they are teaching gym  jouranlism, etc.  I mean the drama teacher is making as much as the Calc teacher.  Seems dumb to me.  I could get anyone to teach gym or some artsy crap.

Get a load of a Steven A. Smith over here!  Sizzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzling hot takes!

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4 hours ago, Brunell4MVP said:

Some gym teachers in our county make $100K+ to work 9 months of the year.  It's all based on time of service.  Plus pension.  And they ##### about it.  How hard is it to tell a kid to run around the track and do a 2 week lesson on Family Planning or whatever it's called?   Most of them look worse than Rosie O'Donnell.

My history teacher made over $100K in 1986.    In our county you can look up their salaries.

I feel fortunate my kids teachers have come from Duke, Stanford, and other great schools.  That's why I live here, so I don't have to pay for private schools.  I'm told most of them make in the $150k range, and that's again for part of a year.  I feel that's worth it for the ones teaching Calc, Econ, Stats, Chem, and other tough courses.  Not so much when they are teaching gym  jouranlism, etc.  I mean the drama teacher is making as much as the Calc teacher.  Seems dumb to me.  I could get anyone to teach gym or some artsy crap.

Again, this is not normal.

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